Lager and Cream Ale from same ingredients/boil

[imtrashed]

Need some help or maybe just some endorsement. I want to brew a lager and a cream ale base for a Jalapeno Cream Ale I plan to do at the same time. Was thinking I could just do 10 gallons of what I think will work for both. I plan to take the below recipe and split it into 5 gallons of one lager, 2.5 gallons of another lager, and 2.5 gallons of a jalapeno cream ale. Think this recipe would work?


BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - BeerSmith Home Brewing Software, Recipes, Podcast and Blog
Recipe: COMBO - Lager / Cream Ale
Style: Standard American Lager
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 12.68 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.18 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 9.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.047 SG
Estimated Color: 3.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 16.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.2 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
12 lbs Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 63.2 %
4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 21.1 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 10.5 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.3 %
1.00 oz Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 13.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 2.7 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Double Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 19 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Protein Rest Add 17.10 qt of water at 132.1 F 122.0 F 20 min
Saccharification Add 15.20 qt of water at 183.2 F 148.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 17.10 qt of water at 209.8 F 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 2.86 gal water at 168.0 F

Created with BeerSmith 2 - BeerSmith Home Brewing Software, Recipes, Podcast and Blog

 

[Yooper]

It's a nice recipe- but I always think of a cream ale as much lighter. Usually a cream ale will have corn or rice (or both!) to lighten up the body and flavor. Fuller-flavored malts such as Vienna would make it unlike a cream ale. The 6-row will be very "grainy" tasting.

 

[imtrashed]

You're right. I missed my corn. Meant to have it. How about if I tone down the 6 Row? Thought the lager would benefit from it (with the initially intended corn). What do you think of the below? How might you change it? Glad you replied, Yooper, as I always enjoy reading your posts/recipes.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 12.68 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.18 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 9.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 3.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 16.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.2 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
10 lbs Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 55.6 %
4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 22.2 %
3 lbs Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 3 16.7 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.6 %
1.00 oz Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 13.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 2.7 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Double Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 18 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Protein Rest Add 16.20 qt of water at 132.1 F 122.0 F 20 min
Saccharification Add 14.40 qt of water at 183.2 F 148.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 16.20 qt of water at 209.8 F 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 3.39 gal water at 168.0 F

 

[Yooper]

I was just thinking of two pretty similar beers in many ways- a Classic American Pilsner (CAP) and a cream ale.

Maybe a CAP grainbill would be the way to go?

 

[imtrashed]

Thinking just 2 Row and Corn? I think I'm going to incorporate some 6 row, maybe a 50/50 blend of 2/6 row? Think I should also add some rice? Here's another iteration. How might you change this? Still learning and only just beginning to craft my own recipes. Thanks!


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 12.68 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.18 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 9.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.049 SG
Estimated Color: 3.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 15.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.2 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 35.0 %
7 lbs Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 35.0 %
3 lbs Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 3 15.0 %
2 lbs Rice, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4 10.0 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 5.0 %
1.00 oz Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 13.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 2.6 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Double Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 20 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Protein Rest Add 18.00 qt of water at 132.1 F 122.0 F 20 min
Saccharification Add 16.00 qt of water at 183.2 F 148.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 18.00 qt of water at 209.8 F 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 2.33 gal water at 168.0 F

 

[Yooper]

Ah, I posted my thoughts at about the same time you were posting the new recipe!

I'd go with that. I'd go with up to 30% corn, 70% two-row (or some six-row), bitter to 25 IBUs. Pre-prohibition CAPs had firm bittering but not over-the-top bitter. I'd mash for 90 minutes, boil for 90 minutes, and use whirlfloc in the boil to help ensure clarity. I'd probably skip the carapils, but if you're mashing at 149 or so you could leave it in. I like corn, but rice would work as well and have less sweetness. The corn has a hint of sweetness to it in the final beer.

For the lager, I'd use an American lager strain, and for the cream ale I'd go with a very clean well-attenuating ale yeast at a low temperature- maybe pacman if you can find it.

 

[imtrashed]

GREAT comments. Thanks! I am actually shooting for a pre-prohibition era american lager / CAP. Between that and having the cream ale as a base for a chile cream ale, I like the idea of the corn adding a little sweetness, otherwise I would go more rice.

I plan on using Wyeast's North American Lager strain for 5 gallons of the lager, W-34/70 for 2.5 gallons of lager (want to see the difference in these strains), and either Cali V or San Diego Super Yeast for the 2.5 gallons Jalapeno Cream Ale. I like Pacman, but don't have any right now.

Yet another iteration below. 50/50 blend of 2/6 row. Upped the corn to 25% of grain bill (corn and rice make up 30%). I do plan on mashing very low for 90 minutes, so I plan to keep the CaraPils, but that could change. I don't necessarily need to have big head retention, so I might drop it and increase the 2/6 row to 7 lbs each.


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 12.68 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.18 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 9.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 3.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 15.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.3 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 32.5 %
6 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 32.5 %
4 lbs Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 3 20.0 %
2 lbs Rice, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4 10.0 %
1 lbs Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 5.0 %
1.00 oz Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 13.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 2.6 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Double Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 20 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Protein Rest Add 18.00 qt of water at 132.1 F 122.0 F 20 min
Saccharification Add 16.00 qt of water at 183.2 F 148.0 F 70 min
Mash Out Add 18.00 qt of water at 209.8 F 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 2.33 gal water at 168.0 F

 

[imtrashed]

Ok, some more tweaks. I did drop the CaraPils and upped the base malts. Going to leave it heavier on corn than on rice for the extra sweetness. Now looking for some input on Hop additions. Maybe add some Saaz at 5 minutes to boost the IBU's a little? Any other input on hops?

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 12.68 gal
Post Boil Volume: 11.18 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 10.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 9.60 gal
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 3.4 SRM
Estimated IBU: 17.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.3 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 35.0 %
7 lbs Pale Malt (6 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 35.0 %
4 lbs Corn, Flaked (1.3 SRM) Grain 3 20.0 %
2 lbs Rice, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 4 10.0 %
1.00 oz Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 13.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Cluster [7.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 2.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 7 1.5 IBUs


Mash Schedule: Double Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 20 lbs
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Protein Rest Add 18.00 qt of water at 132.1 F 122.0 F 20 min
Saccharification Add 16.00 qt of water at 183.2 F 148.0 F 70 min
Mash Out Add 18.00 qt of water at 209.8 F 168.0 F 10 min

Sparge: Fly sparge with 2.33 gal water at 168.0 F

 

[Yooper]

I wouldn't use the cluster at 5 minutes, if you're using the saaz. Maybe some flavor hops at 15 minutes would be ok.

 

[wildwest450]

GREAT comments. Thanks! I am actually shooting for a pre-prohibition era american lager / CAP.

A solid and simple recipe, i've brewed it many times.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f58/schmipielschaerheingoldter-97553/


_

 

[Revvy]

I have done my basic cream ale recipe also as a lager and it is really nice and crisp. Like yoop said A cream ale and a CAP are often very close in terms of grainbills.

 

[imtrashed]

I wouldn't use the cluster at 5 minutes, if you're using the saaz. Maybe some flavor hops at 15 minutes would be ok.

I just ordered 2 oz Cluster and 1 oz Sterling. How might you utilize these in this scenario? Beersmith puts my IBUs at about 26 for 1 oz Cluster @ 60, 1 oz Cluster @ 30, and 1 oz Sterling at 5 mins. Would you change this? Too much Cluster?

Hoping to brew all of this next Saturday the 7th, so I hope everything arrives in time!

 

[Yooper]

I just ordered 2 oz Cluster and 1 oz Sterling. How might you utilize these in this scenario? Beersmith puts my IBUs at about 26 for 1 oz Cluster @ 60, 1 oz Cluster @ 30, and 1 oz Sterling at 5 mins. Would you change this? Too much Cluster?

Hoping to brew all of this next Saturday the 7th, so I hope everything arrives in time!

I think the IBUs would be fine. I have some cluster, but I've only used it for bittering. I don't think you'd get much flavor at 30 minutes anyway, though.

I like sterling!

 

[imtrashed]

Should I go all 2 oz Cluster at 60 mins? Bumps the IBUs up to about 29. Then 1oz Sterling at 5 mins?

 

[imtrashed]

OK, I realize I have a problem and need a little help. Glad I realized this today and not this Saturday, when I brew.

Mashing in a 10 gal MLT. I'll have 20 lbs of grain, and I estimate that I might be able to fit max of 30 qts water(?). In any case, my original plan of stepping the mash from 122* to 148* and then mashing out at 170* won't work, since I'll have to use about 52qts (13 gallons) water, which obviously is not possible.

Should I just go with a 90 minute single step mash at 148/150? I probably won't be able to raise to 170 either. Unless I mash at 1 qt / lb... then maybe I can just about raise to 168/170 with some boiling water. Would be pushing though.

Thoughts? HELP!

 

[Revvy]

From BYO magazine-

Step Mashing in a Picnic Cooler

Multirest mashes require heat additions to step the mash temperature through the various enzyme rests. This process can be tricky in a picnic cooler because rather than simply heating the vessel to the desired temperature, you must instead add precisely calculated quantities of boiling water to achieve the desired temperatures (see below). A further complication is that the thermal mass of the mash increases with each addition, and more and more water is needed at higher temperatures to continually raise the temperature.

Therefore, if your cooler is moderately sized for your mash, you need to start out with a stiff mash (perhaps even as low as 3/4 qt/lb of grain) to leave yourself enough volume for the additional water. Even then, only two temperature rests are usually possible, but you can achieve a third rest if the change in temperature is only a few degrees.

You need to decide whether the additional work is desirable, or even necessary, for your recipes. Review Jim Busch's article on step mashing on page 26 to help make the determination. It's probably best to get a real handle on the single-infusion mash before diving into further manipulations.

Calculating Water Additions for a Step Mash
This calculation is based on calorimetry and thermal equilibrium. By determining the amount of heat provided by a volume of hot water we can predict how much that heat will change the temperature of the mash. The basis for this calculation is the first law of thermodynamics, which assumes that no heat will be lost to the surroundings.

The factors used in the following equation are rounded to single digits to make the math simpler. The difference between these and more precise figures is at most a cup of hot water and less than 1 °F. The equation presented here has been algebraically simplified, including conversion of the mass of hot water to volume. All temperatures must be in degrees Fahrenheit. Experience has shown the equation to be fairly reliable, even if it may be a few degrees off in its prediction, depending on the mash tun. It will be consistent if the mash tun is preheated in the same manner for each batch.

Performing your step mash:
You can tackle the initial infusion in two ways. You could use the seat-of-the-pants infusion approach described in the main text for the initial wetting (that is, guessing the proper strike water temperature to be 10-15 °F above the target mash temperature). Measure your resulting temperature and proceed with the infusion equations from there.

Or, use the simplified equation provided here to arrive at the proper strike water temperature. When mixing hot water with dry grain, the amount of grain does not matter, only its temperature.

Initial infusion equation:
Strike water temperature (Tw) = (0.2 ÷ R) X (T2 - T1) + T2

Mash infusion equation:
Wa = (T2 - T1) X (0.2G + Wm) ÷ (Tw - T2)

where:
Tw = the actual temperature of the infusion water
R = the ratio of water to grain in quarts per pound
T1 = the initial temperature of the mash (or dry grain)
T2 = the target temperature of the mash
Wa = the amount of boiling water added (in quarts)
Wm = the total amount of water in the mash (in quarts)
G = the amount of grain in the mash (in pounds)

The infusion water does not have to be boiling; the nominal sparge water temperature of 170 °F (77 °C) will also work, which means that the Tw becomes 170 °F, and more water (Wa) will be needed to make up the additional quantity of heat.

Example
This example pushes the envelope with three rests. Suppose we plan to mash 8 lb of grain through a 104 °F, 140 °F, and 158 °F (40 °C, 60 °C, and 70 °C) multirest mash schedule. For the purposes of this example, we will assume that the temperature of the dry grain is 70 °F (21 °C). The first infusion will need to bring the temperature of the mash from 70 °F to 104 °F. We will start with an initial water ratio of 1 qt/lb. Using the initial infusion equation, the strike water temperature is:

Tw = (0.2 ÷ R) X (T2 - T1) + T2
Tw = (0.2 ÷ 1) X (104 - 70) + 104 = 110.8, or 111 °F

For the second infusion, to bring the temperature to 140 °F, we need to use the mash infusion equation. At 1 qt/lb, Wm is 8 qt. We will assume that our boiling water for the infusions has cooled somewhat to 210 °F.

Wa = (T2 - T1) X (0.2G + Wm) ÷ (Tw - T2)
Wa = (140 - 104) X (1.6 + 8) ÷ (210 - 140)
Wa = 36 X 9.6 ÷ 70 = 4.9 qt

For the third infusion, the total water volume is now 8 + 4.9 = 12.9 qt.

Wa = (158 - 140) X (1.6 + 12.9) ÷ (210 - 158)
Wa = 18 X 15.1 ÷ 52 = 5.2 qt

The total volume of water required to perform this schedule is 8 + 4.9 + 5.2 = 18.1 qt, or 4.525 gallons). The final water-to-grain ratio has increased to 17.9 ÷ 8 = 2.2 qt/lb.

Hope this helps.

 

[imtrashed]

Thanks, Revvy, but my problem is not the calculations for volumes or temps (since I have Beersmith do it all for me), but rather the volume/capacity issue. Really, I guess the question is whether I need a protein rest for the recipe.
If not, I should have room for a single infusion at about 1 qt / lb to get my target mash temp for 90 minutes and then mash out at 170, then a couple batch sparges. If I need a protein rest and want to do a double infusion, then I'll basically do an initial rest at 122 with about 0.75 qt / lb and then a rest at about 150 bringing mash ratio to about 1.2 qt / lb. Should have room enough for that, I think. Mashing out, I might not be able to get it up to 168 because I won't have room in the MLT.

 

[imtrashed]

My last question, for anyone still paying attention, would be how do you think Wyeast Pilsen Lager would be with these ingredients? Going with W-34/70 for some of the lager, but my Wyeast North American Lager has expired and will not cut the mustard. How do you think that might work out?

 

[Yooper]

My last question, for anyone still paying attention, would be how do you think Wyeast Pilsen Lager would be with these ingredients? Going with W-34/70 for some of the lager, but my Wyeast North American Lager has expired and will not cut the mustard. How do you think that might work out?

I've never used it, but it sounds just fine!