Lactobacillus Plantarum temp tolerance

[JLump]

Can you elaborate a bit more on how you made your starter? Such as starter size for how big of a batch? How many pills you used?

I just got my L. Plantarum pills in the mail and am eager to make a starter. Thanks!

500ml starter at 1.035 SG for 5 gallons. If you have some food grade chalk to add its ideal because it will buffer the pH, but not necessary. Pulled open 3 pills and added the powder. Let sit for 24 hours. Don't oxygenate. Never oxygenate with lacto.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Can you elaborate a bit more on how you made your starter? Such as starter size for how big of a batch? How many pills you used?

I just got my L. Plantarum pills in the mail and am eager to make a starter. Thanks!

I've done L. Plantarum with starters and without. For the non-starter, I've just tossed the contents of 3-4 capsules in the wort, and ultimately I haven't noticed any difference from when I did make a starter. I find it (for myself) to be an unnecessary step if I'm not doing it to save some for future use (overbuilding).

 

[cmac62]

So this past weekend I went to sprouts looking for this L. Plantarum stuff and there wasn't anything on the shelf or fridge that said only L. Plantarum. It was all probiotic stuff and there was LP in them, but nothing with only LP. I did buy some goodbelly, what do you do with this stuff? Dump it into the wort or make a starter?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Dump it into the wort or make a starter?

Either way works. Most goodbelly users seem to just pour it in. To sour in 24-48 hours it helps to have close to "ale pitch rates".

FYI I use a mixed probiotic. It works great.

 

[Biobrewer]

Not sure about other labs, but Plantarum is the majority component in our Yeast Bay Lacto Blend, and it sours really well in the 70-90 F range, increasing in acid production as you move upward in that range. As you get over 100 F range, souring occurs much more slowly. I have also observed this with Plantarum alone. If you're using Plantarum or any blend that has that as a major component, I would definitely cap the temperature at 95 F max.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/172956392888

 

[Rob2010SS]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/172956392888

Alright, dumb question, and I know I've seen people talking about it on HBT, but you can really use these? $5 for 30 capsules, that's pretty cheap. This can be used for kettle souring?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Absolutely. Works well - refrigerate upon arrival, though. 1 cap per 1 gal is suggested.

 

[IslandLizard]

It'll be here today. $8.00 for the lacto, $40 for shipping

OUCH!!!
That would have been better spent on a decent pH meter, such as a Hach Pocket Pro+. $48 would have put you 1/3 in that direction already.
Why were you worried about those last 2 points? Your wife could have told you when it's just perfect.

Those cheap pH meters are a crap shoot, and even when they give you a stable reading, you'd never know if it's accurate. It could easily be off by 0.2 just because of its limited accuracy (0.1) and limited resolution (0.1).

For more reading on pH meters and why those cheapo Chinese made ones are very limited in their use, read the stickies on the Brew Science Forum.

 

[Rob2010SS]

OUCH!!!
That would have been better spent on a decent pH meter, such as a Hach Pocket Pro+. $48 would have put you 1/3 in that direction already.
Why were you worried about those last 2 points? Your wife could have told you when it's just perfect.

Those cheap pH meters are a crap shoot, and even when they give you a stable reading, you'd never know if it's accurate. It could easily be off by 0.2 just because of its limited accuracy (0.1) and limited resolution (0.1).

For more reading on pH meters and why those cheapo Chinese made ones are very limited in their use, read the stickies on the Brew Science Forum.

Yeah.... I know. Waste of money on that one. I regret it a bit but I'll chalk it up to a learning experience.

I think I'm going to buy some of these L. Plantarum pills to have on hand for future cases like this.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah.... I know. Waste of money on that one. I regret it a bit but I'll chalk it up to a learning experience.

I think I'm going to buy some of these L. Plantarum pills to have on hand for future cases like this.

We all get desperate at times, or feel being backed into a corner. That's when a lot of decisions are made that we look back on with: What.was.I.thinking?

Those pills are probably the best deal in kettle sour world! Amazon got them too, but you need to buy 2 or more jars to make it competitive, that's if you need more jars.

Definitely store in fridge, L. Plantarum doesn't like to be stored at room temps.

I still have some sauerkraut and juice, I'm gonna try that in a gallon "starter."
I also need to feed my lacto/pedio/whatever culture, it's being starved right now. That's what they mean with ropey!

 

[JLump]

I personally don't get why people buy these much more expensive lacto cultures when cheap pills are available and they work freakin great. Maybe someone can fill me in on this? Do they provide some extra complexity or something? It seems more worth while getting ester/phenol complexity from yeast. Am I missing something?

 

[toddo97]

I personally don't get why people buy these much more expensive lacto cultures when cheap pills are available and they work freakin great. Maybe someone can fill me in on this? Do they provide some extra complexity or something? It seems more worth while getting ester/phenol complexity from yeast. Am I missing something?

A lot of the cultures have a blend of Lacto. I believe brevis, for example, is more hop tolerant and may drop a the pH lower than plantarum.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Absolutely. Works well - refrigerate upon arrival, though. 1 cap per 1 gal is suggested.

Is there a way to keep an L. Plantarum culture continuously active? Like a sourdough mother? I would like to brew a probiotic beer and keep the L. Plantarum alive.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is there a way to keep an L. Plantarum culture continuously active? Like a sourdough mother? I would like to brew a probiotic beer and keep the L. Plantarum alive.

Between brew days? Yup, use it to make yogurt. Skim milk.

In the beer? Just don't boil it after the bacteria addition & don't use hops. They'll stay alive for at least a few weeks. Longer in the fridge.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Is there a way to keep an L. Plantarum culture continuously active?

You could also make an overbuilt starter and just not pitch the whole thing. Feed it every now and again and keep some Calcium Carbonate in there to buffer the pH.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Will L. Plantarum culture survive being frozen?

 

[RPh_Guy]

You could also make an overbuilt starter and just not pitch the whole thing. Feed it every now and again and keep some Calcium Carbonate in there to buffer the pH.

This is what MTF recommends.

Personally I would use milk as the growth medium instead of wort because it offers one huge advantage... It can't be contaminated by S. cerevisiae.
I'm not sure the MTF author has considered this approach.

@Bigdaddyale
Yes, see here: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus
Scroll down to storage. Lots of info.

However if you just want L. plantarum, why not just pitch Lacto pills each time? You can get a 30-count bottle so cheap.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Personally I would use milk as the growth medium instead of wort because it offers one huge advantage... It can't be contaminated by S. cerevisiae.
I'm not sure the MTF author has considered this approach.

Please tell me more about using milk as the growth medium.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Please tell me more about using milk as the growth medium.

Follow any protocol for making yogurt

Basically:
Heat skim milk to 180°F (this re-pasteurizes)
Cool milk to <100°F
Transfer to sanitized jar or other sealable container.
Pitch your bacteria & stir it in.
Let sit between 70-105°F for 4-24 hours. (Put in the oven, turn on the light.) pH between 4-4.5 I think is ideal if you want to monitor it.
Refrigerate.

If you want to eat it, drain the whey.
Stir well before eating or pitching.

Milk has buffering capacity and all the sugar and nutrients your bacteria need. Skim milk has the most sugar and is fat-free, so it's the best milk for Lacto growth and pitching.

Alternately you could use straight lactose to make a starter (with nutrients and calcium carbonate). This shouldn't get contaminated with yeast either. ... But milk seems easier to me.

 

[Bigdaddyale]

Follow any protocol for making yogurt

Basically:
Heat skim milk to 180°F (this re-pasteurizes)
Cool milk to <100°F
Transfer to sanitized jar or other sealable container.
Pitch your bacteria & stir it in.
Let sit between 70-105°F for 4-24 hours. (Put in the oven, turn on the light.) pH between 4-4.5 I think is ideal if you want to monitor it.
Refrigerate.

If you want to eat it, drain the whey.
Stir well before eating or pitching.

Milk has buffering capacity and all the sugar and nutrients your bacteria need. Skim milk has the most sugar and is fat-free, so it's the best milk for Lacto growth and pitching.

Alternately you could use straight lactose to make a starter (with nutrients and calcium carbonate). This shouldn't get contaminated with yeast either. ... But milk seems easier to me.

Thanks- I have been making yogurt for a long time now. How much L. Plantarum should I use for a 64 oz batch of yogurt?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks- I have been making yogurt for a long time now. How much L. Plantarum should I use for a 64 oz batch of yogurt?

Great! Easy peasy.
Even some pro breweries use yogurt cultures to kettle sour. The main thing is that you want it fat free via skim milk... Lipids won't mix well with the beer.

Two pills ought to be enough, assuming that's your source. It won't hurt to pitch more.

If you wanted to maintain a single yogurt culture, mix in the plantarum with your current yogurt and incubate it at whatever temperature you will incubate your souring wort. This will promote growth of the Lacto best suited for growing at that particular temperature.

Happy souring

 

[cmac62]

With doing the mash/souring on one day and boiling/transfer to fermenter on another day, I can easily brew after work. This sounds awesome, don't have to devote an entire weekend day to brewing. My next beer is going to be a kettle sour for sure.

What kind of hop schedule/amounts are people using with these beers. I know some sours don't get any hops at all. Any feedback would be appreciated.

On the same line is what would be a good grain bill. I'm looking to brew 5 gals of a 4-4.5 abv kettle sour.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I've had sour IPAs, so it's not out of the question. When sours don't get any hops, it's typically for 2 reasons:

1. Lactobacillus is very hop intolerant. Even as little as 7IBU+ can be enough to affect its production of lactic acid or inhibit other souring bugs.
2. The given hop recipe doesn't mesh well with hop presence regarding sensory aspects.

You can kettle sour anything, so suggesting a recipe from scratch is going in blind. Are you looking for a light/crisp brew? Dark and stormy?

 

[RPh_Guy]

After souring I add around 5 IBU with a 15 addition of my preferred hops. It adds some nice complexity.

I generally go light & refreshing. 50/50 2-row and wheat. My Lacto sours are generally sour-forward with light notes of malt, yeast fruitiness, and hops.

 

[Kealia]

Great discussion in this thread. I'm currently awaiting my Omega L yeast to do my first kettle-soured Berliner Weiss.
I'm doing no-hops in this first run to set a baseline for what I can make. From there, assuming all goes well on the first batch, I plan to make some dry-hopped sours with Nelson Sauvin and a few other "like" hops to play around.
When I get to that point, my plan is to play around with a 3-5 IBU addition first, then possibly a dry-hop after that.
But not to get ahead of myself. Phase I is a simple, clean, tart BW that we can use to add syrups to for varying versions (Guava BW, Raspberry BW, Huckleberry BW, etc.).

I'll post my experiences as well but it's right inline with others. Pitch the Omega L @ 90 - 95 after a 2-day starter and let it go for 1-2 days before checking ph. I'm targeting the 3.2 - 3.7 range but we'll see how that goes. I plan to drop the wort down to 4.5 before pitching the lacto using lactic acid.

 

[cactusgarrett]

3-5 IBU addition first

I would suggest the first step after the no-hop first step to be more around 10IBU+ in order to have a perceivable difference. My 5-6IBU berliners are tart enough that 5IBU is indistinguishable from 0IBU.

 

[Kealia]

To be honest, I'm hoping that I don't need no stinkin' IBUs at all

I'd be happy if this first batch turns out tart enough to not "need" anything - which always comes down to personal taste, of course. My wife will be the main drinker of these and she doesn't care for hops - generally speaking.

Meaning, I started her off on hefs and wits and then moved to sours of all kinds (BW, Flanders Red, Kettle-soured this nad that). Some are hopped and some are not, but if I can taste the hop presence it's almost a guarantee that she won't like it.

All that being said, it's good to have your information as a point of reference.

 

[monksretreat]

Learning some more about good belly is a good thing.

Started my first sour yesterday using GB, rather than do it in the kettle I decided to moved it into a fermentor with airlock.

Do I need to move it back to kettle?

Also does it hurt to splash the wort around a bit at this stage?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do I need to move it back to kettle?

Don't bother, your cold-side equipment is already "contaminated". It'll be ok. I don't think a clean beer with hops could really be infected by plantarum.

Also does it hurt to splash the wort around a bit at this stage?

It is not beneficial to aerate during souring. In the off chance you pick up an infection from aerobic bacteria aerating will worsen the infection, so don't do it

Just pitch your yeast after 24-48 hours or when it reaches your target pH. You can aerate at that point if you want.