Lactic acid - how much is too much?

[dbdubb]

I use well water, 8%ph for my brews and often find myself using lactic acid 88% to lower my mash ph. My question is can you use too much? I brew 10 and 15 gal batches and sometimes find myself using a couple of ounces per brew only to get to 5.5ph and simply accepting it for fear of adding too much. Any advice or thoughts are appreciated.

 

[thehaze]

Do you use something like EZ water og Brun Water spreadsheets to calculate your salts and Lactic acid additions?

Did you test the water to know its " chemistry "?

I brew 5-6 gallons ( somethin between 19 and 24 liters ) and I use up to 10 ml Lactic Acid, especially when using Pilsner and Wheat malt. It is easier when the grainbill has a bit of crystal and Roasted malts.

I have yet to taste any sour notes in my beers.

Did any of your batches seem like they got too much lactic acid?

 

[Yooper]

Try an experiment. Take a gallon of your water, and add lactic acid a ml of a time, stir it, and see if/when you can taste it.

For my high alkalinity tap water, I couldn't taste 1 ml in a gallon, but I could taste 1.25 ml in that gallon.

 

[mabrungard]

Most tasters will be able to detect lactate in their beer after dosing with 88% lactic acid at a rate of 1.5 mL/gal. Lorena's result above is pretty typical. There are super tasters that can detect it at a lesser dosage. Most will find that 1 mL/gal is safe from flavor effects.

 

[z-bob]

What does lactate taste like in beer if you get too much? (not lactic acid; that tastes sour) I used almost 2 ml per gallon in one beer and that one tastes weird, but I don't think lactate is the main problem (I used too much orange and coriander and boiled it too long in a witbier)

If I wasn't so cheap, I'd dump that one; I have about 10 bottles left...

 

[thehaze]

Most tasters will be able to detect lactate in their beer after dosing with 88% lactic acid at a rate of 1.5 mL/gal. Lorena's result above is pretty typical. There are super tasters that can detect it at a lesser dosage. Most will find that 1 mL/gal is safe from flavor effects.

How would the beer taste when using too much?

I use bottled water and for getting down at a pH under 5.3 with a grainbill consisting of Pilsner, Flaked Wheat and CaraPils, I would need to use around 9-10 ml for 5-6 gallons and that is with the chlorides at over 100. ( NEIPAs, softer bigger beers )

I could use less, but then the pH will be at 5.4 or around that.

Would a mash pH of 5.3-5.4 be as good as 5.2?

What would the solution be, if you are forced to use more of it to drop the pH? Phosphoric acid or choosing different grains, provided you do not have RO water.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Have you tried using sauermalz (acidulated grain)?
I and many others feel it adds a much better flavor along with the acidification.
And if you're messing with water chemistry and not using something like BruNWater or other calculator, you're just flying blind and guessing.

But yes, phosphoric acid would be a more flavor-neutral alternative, but you have to use a lot more of it (it's 10% rather than 88%).

 

[z-bob]

Have you tried using sauermalz (acidulated grain)?
I and many others feel it adds a much better flavor along with the acidification.
And if you're messing with water chemistry and not using something like BruNWater or other calculator, you're just flying blind and guessing.

But yes, phosphoric acid would be a more flavor-neutral alternative, but you have to use a lot more of it (it's 10% rather than 88%).

I'm using 88% lactic acid because I have it already. I like sauermalz better, and when I use up all my lactic acid and sauermalz I plan to use sauergut.

85% phosphoric acid is available at Amazon for about $25 per quart. I'm using it now in my sparge water.

Would a mash pH of 5.3-5.4 be as good as 5.2?

Depends what you mean by "better". I just got a pH meter; before that I was just plugging in the numbers and adding the acid and trusting it was the right amount. (I'm still doing that, but now I verify the pH so I can make adjustments next time) On my last brew I was shooting for a mash pH of 5.45 and it was actually 5.85. I got over 80% efficiency, which is high for me. It's still in the fermenter so I don't know yet about the beer; the wort tasted good.

 

[LarMoeCur]

Be careful with the amount of Acidulated malt you use. It's just malt with lactic acid 1-2% by weight. So, you are in the same boat as adding lactic acid. Over do the malt and you will taste the lactic acid.

RO water at the store is cheap. $1.00 for 5 gallons. Why not pick some up when you're in town and cut your well water to lower the pH some which will reduce your acid addition.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Kai Troester (Braukaiser) once stated that from his testing it was determined that acidulated malt can be used at up to 8% of grist weight without likely detection in a 12 Plato beer. That comes pretty close to an upper limit of 10 mL of 88% Lactic Acid for a ballpark 5.5 to 6 gallon batch at 12 Plato.

Interestingly enough, the beer in which high concentrations of lactic acid proved hardest for his assembled group of testers to detect was Bud Light. He attributed this to their lack of familiarity with that beer.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I'm using 88% lactic acid because I have it already. I like sauermalz better, and when I use up all my lactic acid and sauermalz I plan to use sauergut.

85% phosphoric acid is available at Amazon for about $25 per quart. I'm using it now in my sparge water.

I want to switch to sauergut too. I've used it once as a one-off, but I want to make a reactor. I have pretty much all the equipment I need - I just need to assemble it.

I've only seen the 10% phosphoric. I'd look into the 85%, but I rarely use phosphoric anyway except in my sparge, and even then only when I'm doing non-German styles.

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Be careful with the amount of Acidulated malt you use. It's just malt with lactic acid 1-2% by weight. So, you are in the same boat as adding lactic acid. Over do the malt and you will taste the lactic acid.

RO water at the store is cheap. $1.00 for 5 gallons. Why not pick some up when you're in town and cut your well water to lower the pH some which will reduce your acid addition.

It's much harder to overdo sauermalz than pure lactic acid because it has a much smoother flavor (contrary to popular belief it isn't just grain hosed down with lactic acid - it's grain hosed down with sauergut, which is an active lactobacillus culture and has a much richer and more appealing flavor that straight laboratory lactic acid).

But it can probably be overdone too, like any ingredient in your beer, which is why I recommend a water chemistry calculator like BruNWater. Otherwise, like I said before, you're just flying bling and guessing by trial and error.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I gleaned from Kai's ending comments that if you don't have a decent grasp of what a particular style of beer should taste like to begin with, that alone makes it much harder to detect the presence of lactic acid.

 

[z-bob]

RO water at the store is cheap. $1.00 for 5 gallons. Why not pick some up when you're in town and cut your well water to lower the pH some which will reduce your acid addition.

About $1.75 here RO water is cheap, but not all that convenient.

Acidifying the mash and using RO water for the sparge works pretty well. But a personal challenge of mine is to brew w/o using any RO water. The water here tastes good, so it should be doable. I may have to dealkalize it with slaked lime or by boiling, but I'm just using acid until I get a better handle on that.

 

[mabrungard]

The flavor from lactic acid isn't terrible. It's just different and probably unexpected in many styles. Remember, Berliner Weisse is a lactic flavored beer.

Using an acid other than or in combination with lactic is an option. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water allows up to 4 different acids to be used in the mashing and sparging water.

As mentioned above, acid malt is just a base malt that has been infused with lactic acid. Using it would not alleviate the lactic flavor, if you are already using lactic acid for neutralization.

 

[LarMoeCur]

It's much harder to overdo sauermalz than pure lactic acid because it has a much smoother flavor (contrary to popular belief it isn't just grain hosed down with lactic acid - it's grain hosed down with sauergut, which is an active lactobacillus culture and has a much richer and more appealing flavor that straight laboratory lactic acid).

But it can probably be overdone too, like any ingredient in your beer, which is why I recommend a water chemistry calculator like BruNWater. Otherwise, like I said before, you're just flying bling and guessing by trial and error.

I agree it is a more subdued. But just remember no mater how it is made it's still lactic acid. The reason it's more subdued is because it's not concentrated like the 88% lactic acid that brewers use. I've always heard 1% of acid malt in your grain bill will lower the pH by .1. Just saying that it's far easier to go over board when adding a few ml vise a few pounds.

Either way works just know there is a point where you can taste it. Potato vs Po-tato

 

[Jaybird]

Its funny because I feel like I can taste very low levels of Lactic Acid in beers. Its really off putting flavor for me.

Cheers
Jay

 

[thehaze]

So, is there a (very) noticeable difference between a 5.25 mash pH and a 5.4 mash pH?

I am asking because, if a mash pH of 5.4 produces as good beers as 5.2, then we could easily give up some of the lactic acid we use to drop the pH in the first, probably cutting some of the lactic flavours in the final product.

Thank sin advance.

 

[dbdubb]

Some great feedback and advice guys! I really appreciate it.
The NET NET here is that about 1ML per gallon of water appears to be a safe area with no effect on the taste. Is this based on the final batch size?

IE. If I use 25 Gal of water to end with a 17 Gal Batch, should I limit my treatment to 25ML or 17ML?