Kiwi IPA recipe critique.... crazy NZ hop schedule

[hirschb]

I really want to play around with some NZ hops, so I based a recipe off of one from the White Labs page (http://www.whitelabs.com/recipes/ales/kiwi-ipa) but then altered the hops considerably. I'm basically using the same hop schedule as Pliny the Elder, but with all NZ hops. My goal was to use as many NZ hops as possible (which will also allow me to smell the packets/ taste them individually). I tried not to use any NZ hops that will completely overwhelm all the others.... and I also stayed away from some that have been badmouthed on these forums.
So, question is, does this recipe look good or would this result in a nasty cluster**** of contrasting flavors? Should I cut back or increase the quantity of any of the hops? I'm also looking for less bittering hops and more flavor/aroma hops, but I may have swung the pendulum too far in that direction. Any tips suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

6 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK
6 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US
1 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine
1 lb Vienna Malt
0.5 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L

0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - First Wort Hop addition
1.00 oz Pacific Jade [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min
1.00 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min
1.00 oz Rakau - Boil 1.0 min
1.00 oz Southern Cross [13.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min
0.50 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Dry Hop 12-14 Days
0.50 oz Wakatu - Dry Hop 12-14 Days
0.50 oz Pacifica [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 12-14 Days
0.50 oz Waimea - Dry Hop 12-14 Days
0.50 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
0.50 oz Wakatu - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
0.50 oz Pacifica [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
0.50 oz Waimea - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

5.5 gallon batch
Single infusion mash at 151F. Boil for 75 minutes.
O.G. - 1.068

Thanks!

 

[JKaranka]

I'd drop the crystal and leave 5oz carapils. Looks good with two base pale malts and Vienna for the abv. I'd drop the Nelson Sauvin to give more room to the more subtle hops. Maybe a 15m addition to also increase IBU?

 

[hirschb]

I'd drop the crystal and leave 5oz carapils. Looks good with two base pale malts and Vienna for the abv. I'd drop the Nelson Sauvin to give more room to the more subtle hops. Maybe a 15m addition to also increase IBU?

Drop the first wort hopping of Nelson, or both first wort and 1min. additions?
If I dropped the crystal, I'd probably up the 2 row by about 2 pounds because I occasional have low efficiency and don't hit my intended SG.

 

[JKaranka]

I'd do the first wort with Pacific Jade as well. At that OG I don't think you need the crystal, specially if you use Vienna and UK 2row. Dry but malty is beautiful, no need to make it too sweet or heavy. I'd drop the crystal and carapils and then up UK 2row 2lb.

 

[hirschb]

So something like this?:

8 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK
6 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US
0.25 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine
1 lb Vienna Malt


1.00 oz Pacific Jade [13.00 %] - First Wort Hop addition
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] – Boil 15 min
1.00 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min
1.00 oz Rakau - Boil 1.0 min
1.00 oz Southern Cross [13.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min
1.00 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days
1.00 oz Wakatu - Dry Hop 6.0 Days
1.00 oz Pacifica [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days
1.00 oz Waimea - Dry Hop 6.0 Days

 

[JKaranka]

I think that looks good. Isn't Southern Cross South African or am I confusing it?

 

[wozzer]

That's so many hop varieties I wouldn't know which was contributing what.

If you've done all the contrast tests, and have a good feel for where each fits, then all power to you. I certainly haven't - about 10 years from now, just maybe.

But I have dry hopped Pacifica and Waimea, and I can't agree that the aroma end of the boil is where they belong. They are better as bitterers. Same goes for Southern Cross and Pacific Jade.

I like your placement of Nelson Sauvin. It's best suited to mid and late boil.

Wakatu one can do what one likes with, so long as it's matched with light malts.

Motueka also strikes me as a late boil/dry hop. Tons of delicate flavour.

Rakau I have yet to try.

 

[JKaranka]

Southern Promise and Southern Star are South African. Southern Star has more than 10% farnesene!

 

[hirschb]

OK, Southern Star will be banished for non-NZ origins.
Thanks wozzer for the suggestion to use Waimea as a bittering, not an aroma/flavoring hop.
And no, I have not done a contrast test for any of these hops. I'm playing (disorganized) mad-scientist on this beer. I expect that when I dry hop, I'll open the three packages, sniff them all at the same time, and see if the aromas work together. If not, I can cut it down to the best two, or alter the percentage of each to be more harmonious. I may not find all of these hops at my LHBS anyway.... Then again, there are some other NZ hops I'm missing (the remaining subtle ones that I know of being: Wai-ti, Riwaka- which may be too grapefuity, and Kohatu).

New hop schedule:
1.00 oz Pacific Jade [13.00 %] - First Wort Hop addition
0.50 oz Waimea - Boil 45 min
0.50 oz Pacifica [5.50 %] - Boil 45min.
0.50 oz Waimea - Boil 25 min
0.50 oz Pacifica [5.50 %] - Boil 25min.
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] – Boil 15 min
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min
0.50 oz Rakau - Dry Hop 12-14 Days
0.50 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Dry Hop 12-14 Days
0.50 oz Wakatu - Dry Hop 12-14 Days
0.50 oz Rakau - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
0.50 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days
0.50 oz Wakatu - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

 

[hirschb]

Well, no Waimea, Rakau, or Wakatu at the LHBS.
I'll probably go this route now (maybe add more Motueka?)

1.00 oz Pacific Jade [13.00 %] - First Wort Hop addition
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] – Boil 15 min
0.50 oz Pacifica [5.50 %] - Boil 5min.
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 1.0 min
0.50 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Dry Hop 12-14 Days
0.50 oz Pacifica [5.50 %] 12-14 Days
0.50 oz Motueka [7.00 %] - Dry Hop 5.0 Days

 

[JKaranka]

Some motueka for the boil? If is a relative of saaz a 15m addition could work. It's going to end up weirdly balanced with those hops. Citrus, fruit, blackcurrant, spice...

 

[hirschb]

Some motueka for the boil? If is a relative of saaz a 15m addition could work. It's going to end up weirdly balanced with those hops. Citrus, fruit, blackcurrant, spice...

I was thinking more Motueka during dry hopping, or a bit during flameout.
Yeah, the flavor balance may be odd or simply not work.... I'm planning on testing/tasting after fermentation and adjusting the dry hops accordingly (although it may be too late to change it much at that point).