Kits vs Grapes.... Quality?

[gitmo234]

I made an attempt to search the forum but maybe my wording was off. I couldn't find a dedicated thread so I wanted to get some input.

So I have made several wine kits, ranging in quality from a limited edition with grape skins, to a lower quality Malbec. The bottom line I'm finding is that I cant quite get the quality I'm looking for.

Personally, I'm looking to create something that will pass for about a $20 wine or so. Something passable as commercial quality. Adding to this, I want to have more customization ability.

So I've been contemplating getting a 15-20 gallon of production setup (or two). A couple of larger brewing stores within an hour or so drive sell grapes or must (vs kits), and there's a Vintner nearby that I've come to personally know who also makes the best (in my opinion) around. He's willing to sell me a bit off his orders .

What's the community census? Am I off in my thinking that I wont get the same quality? or am I just always screwing the pooch somehow in my brew?

I will say that the limited edition had an amazing taste just before bottling and its still very young. i'm also waiting on the verdict of a couple others I made this year.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Wine kits are a great place to start when learning to make wine, they're pre-stabilized, all additives pre-measured, yeast pre-determined, and the wine making method completely laid out for you and come with a great set of instructions to help you through the process.
Another selling point for kits is that you also need only a minimal amount of equipment.
That said....
There is no comparison between kits and fresh grapes, with kits, you get a pre balanced paint by numbers wine that you really have no control over.
Lets not forget the Kit Taste, I just can't get over it, most kit wine makers will say that there isn't any kit taste, I'm not the only one who can taste it, and personally, I feel that those who cannot taste it have become acclimated to it.
You'll never get the aroma and flavor of grape wines in a kit.
Now don't get me wrong, there are people out there that just cannot afford the equipment, or they don't have the space, I totally understand their reasoning for making kits, this is usually the point where I'm called a hater or whatever some of the die hard kit makers want to call me, but if you're looking to make a $20 bottle of wine and have more customization ability, you'll need control over the entire wine making process.

I've made kits just to see what everyone was talking about, I've made juice buckets -Juice buckets are a step up in my opinion, you have more control over the wine making process, but what is lacking is the grape skins, red wines are fermented with the crushed grapes allowing more flavor, color and tannins to be extracted, just to name a few of the benefits of using fresh grapes.
White juice buckets are fine, when making a white wine, you normally press right after the crush, very few whites are fermented on the skins.

When using fresh grapes you are in total control of the wine making process, from selecting the yeast that will bring out the characteristics that you desire, to MLF, blending, and aging in barrels, it is a labor of love! You can tailor the wine to your liking, but, you'll have your work cut out for you, you'll need to be very proactive, and at the same time, very patient - most reds need at least a year or more of aging, you'll need to be able to test PH, Acidity, SO2, all of this easily done with the right tools/testers.
I highly recommend Scott Labs Fermentation Handbook, it is free online, and a wealth of knowledge.

Before you jump into using fresh grapes, I would research it, and research it again, ask as many questions as possible, I don't know where you are located, but join a local wine club, our wine club buys in bulk and we get great prices on juice buckets and grapes, plus another member will have a crusher destemmer, maybe if you help them, they'll crush your grapes for you.
It is a lot of fun, once you make your first batch of wine using fresh grapes, you'll never go back to kits.

 

[gitmo234]

Thanks for that long and informative post. Very appreciated.

I've noticed a certain smell with kits too. At least with two or three that I've made. I am probably going to continue research (I've done a lot), and I may take a step up to a Vino Superiore buckets first. It's a little less hand holding.

I have plenty of space. The whole basement (minus the HVAC area) is mine and it is being remodeled into a Winery/Brewery cellar area with a nice place to both brew and sit around socially and socialize with a taste

 

[pumpkinman2012]

If you have any questions, feel free to ask or private message me, I'm more than happy to help you with the transition.

 

[gitmo234]

Thanks a lot! I cracked open a montepulciano very early today. Initial smell of plastic, and touch of that "kit taste".

After letting it sit for 20-30 minutes it lost the smell and tasted okay (although young). Some of this may have been the bottle of Barolo my wife and I split during the wait time.

I've always heard the "Kit taste" is the Potassium Sorbate. I have always left that out. To me, it seems to always have a plastic taste and smell. At least at first.

 

[pumpkinman2012]

I've heard that the kit taste is from the sorbate as well, but I've used sorbate numerous times to back sweeten a white wine with no off flavors or odors, I think it has more to do with the pasteurizing that the must goes through, whatever the case, I really do not care for the taste.
Nice choice in wine, I love Barolo, next season I'm going to try to find a decent source of Nebbiolo grapes to attempt to make a Barbaresco or Barolo, Montepulciano is another favorite, but I prefer the "Reserva" it has been aged 3 years I believe, I came upon a fairly ornate bottle in the back of a hard to reach cupboard (how it got there is beyond me), I cracked it open and it was incredible! I remember doing a quick Google search and found out that it was a $75 bottle that we just drank with pizza....lol
If you like good wine, check out www.wtso.com you can purchase really good wine at up to 75% off the retail price! I've come across a few bottle in the $200 range that I purchased for $35-$45.

 

[gregbathurst]

When you make wine from grapes the quality of the wine depends mostly on the quality of the grapes, and quality can vary a lot. If you know the source of the grapes and they make good wine with those grapes you should be ok, otherwise it is a bit of a gamble. It is always possible to ruin good grapes with poor winemaking but if your winemaking skills are ok there shouldn't be problems. On the other hand you will never turn poor quality grapes into good wine, and there are a lot of poor quality grapes from overcropped, overwatered vineyards because that is where all the millions of gallons of cheap wine come from.

 

[gitmo234]

I've heard that the kit taste is from the sorbate as well, but I've used sorbate numerous times to back sweeten a white wine with no off flavors or odors, I think it has more to do with the pasteurizing that the must goes through, whatever the case, I really do not care for the taste.
Nice choice in wine, I love Barolo, next season I'm going to try to find a decent source of Nebbiolo grapes to attempt to make a Barbaresco or Barolo, Montepulciano is another favorite, but I prefer the "Reserva" it has been aged 3 years I believe, I came upon a fairly ornate bottle in the back of a hard to reach cupboard (how it got there is beyond me), I cracked it open and it was incredible! I remember doing a quick Google search and found out that it was a $75 bottle that we just drank with pizza....lol
If you like good wine, check out www.wtso.com you can purchase really good wine at up to 75% off the retail price! I've come across a few bottle in the $200 range that I purchased for $35-$45.

With your taste and as hard as Nebbiolo grapes are to grow, I strongly recommend you take a look at Orange County VA, in particular, Barboursville Vineyards. I went down there on vacation with the wife and all we did was wine taste.

Lots of really good stuff coming out of that area of VA but Barboursville has gotten Nebbiolo to grow well. They make an amazing bottle. Its the whole reason we went down there. I think their tasting room is $5 and you get to taste 20 wines. I brought home a lot of wines I would never drink otherwise. Spent what amounts to a car payment on booze at their place alone

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Gitmo234,
Thanks for the recommendation, Nebbiolo is a hard grape to grow successfully from what I've been told, I've only seen it offered from Central Valley in California, I tend to not buy any grapes from Central Valley, but recently I found out that it is grown in Washington State and thanks to you, at Orange County VA, in particular, Barboursville Vineyards.
On a side note, Washington State grapes are some of the best grapes I've had the pleasure to work with, not just a single varietal or a specific vineyard, unfortunately I couldn't get any grapes from Washington State this season, the drought and high demand had vineyards selling out long before harvest.

 

[gitmo234]

I spent all day at a local vineyard in PA. Corked 750 bottles (I was one of two people corking, for a total of 1500), then picked and crushed grapes, followed by a busload of 17 people dropping in and them being short handed so I served.

good times

 

[pumpkinman2012]

Very cool! Nothing like a "hands on" day doing what you enjoy!
Depending on the weather here tomorrow, I may press my final batches of the season, unless something changes, but at this point we are expecting a possible hard frost over night...not too many grapes would survive that.
A local winery usually has a harvest party for our wine club, we help harvest a few tons of whites and they let us each take enough for a carboy full, even if they didn't it still is a bunch of fun! They're very generous to our club, I cannot say good enough about them.