Kit Saison brew, herb or citrus zest addition

[tbrown4]

Just ordered some NB extract kits. Going to brew the Petite Saison some time in the next week or so. Im thinking of splitting up the batch for primary, adding some stuff to one, leave the other alone. Would like use some herbs, maybe some citrus zest. Trying to add some nice aroma and flavor notes.

Anybody here have experience with what Im trying for?

Recommendations and suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[RiffMagnum]

Just ordered some NB extract kits. Going to brew the Petite Saison some time in the next week or so. Im thinking of splitting up the batch for primary, adding some stuff to one, leave the other alone. Would like use some herbs, maybe some citrus zest. Trying to add some nice aroma and flavor notes.

Anybody here have experience with what Im trying for?

Recommendations and suggestions would be appreciated.

Orange peel, coriander, grains of paradise, black pepper all seem to work for saisons. I'd keep the amounts at 1 oz or less. The grains of paradise and black pepper only need about a half teaspoon for a 5 gallon boil. Throw it in with five minutes left on your boil. You don't want a fine powder, just coarsely crushed/cracked.

 

[tbrown4]

Orange peel, coriander, grains of paradise, black pepper all seem to work for saisons. I'd keep the amounts at 1 oz or less. The grains of paradise and black pepper only need about a half teaspoon for a 5 gallon boil. Throw it in with five minutes left on your boil. You don't want a fine powder, just coarsely crushed/cracked.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[ardonthorn5]

I used grains of paradise and some orange peel in my petite saison ... came out great! I would recommend both. I used a half oz. of paradise grains in a 5 gallon batch, so adjust accordingly.

 

[Calder]

Forget the additions, and put your energies to figure out how to keep the beer in the mid 70s for fermentation.

The yeast is what makes this type of beer, and it needs to be fermented igh to express it's character.

If you want to split the batch, try fermenting one at 70 F, and the other at 80 F. There will be a huge difference.

 

[tbrown4]

Forget the additions, and put your energies to figure out how to keep the beer in the mid 70s for fermentation.

The yeast is what makes this type of beer, and it needs to be fermented igh to express it's character.

If you want to split the batch, try fermenting one at 70 F, and the other at 80 F. There will be a huge difference.

Ive got a warm room at the front of my house, upstairs. Thats my best shot.

 

[RiffMagnum]

Forget the additions, and put your energies to figure out how to keep the beer in the mid 70s for fermentation.

The yeast is what makes this type of beer, and it needs to be fermented igh to express it's character.

If you want to split the batch, try fermenting one at 70 F, and the other at 80 F. There will be a huge difference.

No, don't forget the additions. Most saison recipes have multiple spice additions that, in addition to the yeast character, give the saison it's trademark spicey/zesty/funkiness.
Summer is coming. It's not too hard to get high temps. I have a saison in my closet right now and it's pretty toasty in there on it's own. House thermostat is set to 75-77 and i have a blanket around the fermenter to keep in the heat.

 

[RiffMagnum]

Ive got a warm room at the front of my house, upstairs. Thats my best shot.

There ya go. Keep in mind that during active fermentation the temp inside your carboy can get 5-10 degrees hotter than the ambient temp in your room. So after a week or so, you might have to find a room/garage/porch that gets even hotter. I've heard people push saisons close to 90 degrees!!
Anyways, what strain of yeast are you using? Some don't need as much heat as others.

 

[tbrown4]

Anyways, what strain of yeast are you using?

Wyeast 3711 French Saison

 

[RiffMagnum]

Wyeast 3711 French Saison

cool. You should be good to go with high 70's to low 80's. I'm currently doing one with 3724 and it might be time to take a trip to my garage!! Of course i'm in Texas so i got no trouble finding heat either way. If i have to leave put my thermostat on 80, then that's what i'll do.

 

[Calder]

No, don't forget the additions. Most saison recipes have multiple spice additions that, in addition to the yeast character, give the saison it's trademark spicey/zesty/funkiness.

The yeast provides the 'trademark' spicy/zesty/funkiness.

Many recipes may have spice additions, but many Commercial examples of the style don't.

Per Farmhous Ales, (Phil Markowski, page 166): 'The use of spices in brewing saison is optional, not a requirement as many brewers seem to believe. While several commercial Belgian saison brewers use spices, just as many do not. Too often a "more is better" approach is taken and the beer flavor becomes smothered by spice character. When using spices, less is often more.'

 

[RiffMagnum]

The yeast provides the 'trademark' spicy/zesty/funkiness.

Many recipes may have spice additions, but many Commercial examples of the style don't.

Per Farmhous Ales, (Phil Markowski, page 166): 'The use of spices in brewing saison is optional, not a requirement as many brewers seem to believe. While several commercial Belgian saison brewers use spices, just as many do not. Too often a "more is better" approach is taken and the beer flavor becomes smothered by spice character. When using spices, less is often more.'

No doubt. When i've used additional spices that were new to me, i've always cut the amounts in half from what it says on the recipe. I'd rather err on the side of caution with the result being something more subdued, than have 5 gallons of funky cat piss in my fridge. I guess it's safe to say you can start with very minimal amounts of spice and just ramp it up to taste as you progress through more batches.

But the main point is that the OP wants to try spices and i think it's only natural to be curious and wanna see what it's all about. On my next saison i might try it without any spices at all, just to experiment.

 

[tbrown4]

Update. Brewed this afternoon. Everything went fine as far as I could see. Sitting in primary now, going to leave for about two weeks. I'm thinking about splitting the batch for secondary. Do some sort of addition/treatment. Leave the other as is. For the smaller batch that I leave as is, is secondary even needed. Will the resting off yeast benefit it at all?

For the smaller batch that I plan do something with.....wife suggest sage. This sounds like it could be fantastic. We've enjoyed the style with sage. I'm thinking about a citrus zest addition as well. Thoughts?

Going to brew batch two, a kit hefe, on Monday morning before we head to the pool.

 

[tbrown4]

Also, for primary...currently it's sitting in my basement storage room, stays in the low 70s. Should I let it start there and then move it up the the warmer room upstairs, gets to low 80s at the peak of the day. Or should I just move it up to the warmer room now.

 

[tbrown4]

Update....I did a gravity reading yesterday, and it's getting close...and it appears that fermentation has been slowing down, maybe done. The room has been pretty warm the last two days with out mini heat wave here in MD.

So, my next question...how longed should I let it sit on this yeast before moving to secondary?

I plan to split and rack to secondary. One half is going to get herbed. Not sure exactly what to use. I've decided to save the citrus idea for another brew. Taking the less is more approach. So, what herbs will add just a hint of flavor and decent aroma with out adding any off or clashing flavors?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[RiffMagnum]

Update....I did a gravity reading yesterday, and it's getting close...and it appears that fermentation has been slowing down, maybe done. The room has been pretty warm the last two days with out mini heat wave here in MD.

So, my next question...how longed should I let it sit on this yeast before moving to secondary?

I plan to split and rack to secondary. One half is going to get herbed. Not sure exactly what to use. I've decided to save the citrus idea for another brew. Taking the less is more approach. So, what herbs will add just a hint of flavor and decent aroma with out adding any off or clashing flavors?

Thanks for any advice.

What was your O.G.? What is your specific gravity at now?

 

[tbrown4]

What was your O.G.? What is your specific gravity at now?

OG was 1.050. On Monday it was 1.013.

 

[planetscott]

If you want citrus aroma and flavor, use late addition of Sorachi Ace hops. I've been doing it for years and have had great results including several medals.

As far as the spiciness, let the yeast do it's job. I use the White Labs 566. Wyeast makes a great Saison yeast as well.

 

[planetscott]

OG was 1.050. On Monday it was 1.013.

See if you can get it down to 1.010. I know mine have dropped that low. Nothing worse than a buttery Saison.

 

[tbrown4]

If you want citrus aroma and flavor, use late addition of Sorachi Ace hops. I've been doing it for years and have had great results including several medals.

As far as the spiciness, let the yeast do it's job. I use the White Labs 566. Wyeast makes a great Saison yeast as well.

Late addition to the boil, or in secondary?

See if you can get it down to 1.010. I know mine have dropped that low. Nothing worse than a buttery Saison.

Ok, thanks! When it hits 1.010, how long should I let it sit?

 

[planetscott]

Late addition to the boil, or in secondary?



Ok, thanks! When it hits 1.010, how long should I let it sit?

Boil. Dry hopping Saison is not needed if you want to stay in style.

It may not get to 1.010, but wait and see if it does. How long has it been in primary? I always give mine at least 2 weeks. If after 2 weeks it has not dropped to where I wanted, I give it a few more days. If ti does not drop, then I transfer. If it is at 1.010, then you can transfer.

I've tasted too many home brews that were pulled from the yeast cake way too soon. Patience......Patience.....

 

[tbrown4]

Ok, i plan to let it sit in there for two full weeks. Its been in primary for only 5 days.

 

[tbrown4]

Update, took a gravity reading today. It's sitting at 1.017, down from 1.018 on 5/30...about 8 days ago.

Starting gravity was 1.050, and target final gravity is 1.013.

Does this seem to be progressing correctly? It'll be in primary two weeks on Friday.

 

[blakelyc]

Sage works well with sweet orange rather than bitter. I did one, same kit, with grains of paradise, sweet orange, and a bit of sage from the garden. It is glorious. The sage need not be heavy. I went with 1/4oz grains of paradise, 1/2oz sweet orange zest, and 1/4oz sage.

 

[tbrown4]

Sage works well with sweet orange rather than bitter. I did one, same kit, with grains of paradise, sweet orange, and a bit of sage from the garden. It is glorious. The sage need not be heavy. I went with 1/4oz grains of paradise, 1/2oz sweet orange zest, and 1/4oz sage.

In the boil?

 

[FlyDoctor]

Jamil and J. Palmer say forget the additions - the flavors are meant to be yeast derived. Not that they are the gods or anything, but they know a hell of a lot more than I - and I agree to master the style the right way first, then mess around to your hearts content once you've got the skills down. I say no additions.

 

[BichesBrue]

What about ginger? It seems to be a common ingredient in a contemporary saison....

 

[HopSong]

Regarding your gravity readings.. there is a correction for temp.. so you might be higher than you think.. at both ends.

HERE is a place for temp corrections to your readings.

 

[tbrown4]

Regarding your gravity readings.. there is a correction for temp.. so you might be higher than you think.. at both ends.

HERE is a place for temp corrections to your readings.

Im using a refractometer that has auto temp correction.

 

[blakelyc]

i do spices in the boil, herbs in primary or secondary depending on my mood. For adding everything in secondary, i'd probably make a tea. I generally don't reference specific recipes for style because I prefer Designing Great Beers, which does a good job of bracketing characteristics. You can definitely make the non-sage additions and still be in the ranges and flavor descriptions. The sage in the amounts I mentioned becomes primarily aromatic and marries well to the normal saison funk.

So while I agree that you shouldn't generally make style-altering additions until you're familiar with the base style, this particular kit isn't a very saison-y saison and the flavor profiles we're talking about definitely improve it.