Kentucky Common Attempt

[Hugh_Jass]

I brewed Biermuncher's SWMBO Slayer this weekend. Mashed Friday evening and boiled on Saturday afternoon. The runnings and mash smelled gawdawful.

Pitched with WLP-400 and it's going gang-busters at 65 F.

I'm hoping for just a hint of sourness to go with the other Belgian flavors.

If it goes well, Kentucky Common will be on the to-do list.

 

[Aubie Stout]

Primary for a grand total of 4 days. Changed my mind however.... I'll rack this to a keg and crash cool for a week or so before it gets gas.

 

[krugulitis]

New to this style, but sounds verrrrry interesting. I only brewed my first all grain batch last weekend (brewed primarily partial mash beforehand due to lacking equipment, etc.), however I think this may be the next beer I brew.

Here is my preliminary recipe and some questions. As much critique/criticism as possible please!!!

1.049 OG
1.012 FG
16 SRM
85% efficiency
26.5 IBU
estimated 4.9% a.b.v
6 gallon boil
5 gallon batch

Malt and Fermenatables
5lb 8oz American Two-row Pale (71%)
1lb 8oz Flaked Corn (19%)
4oz Crystal 120L (3%)
4oz Chocolate Malt (3%)
4oz Brown Sugar (3%)

Hops
60min .75oz Cluster
15min .75oz Cluster
1min .75oz Cluster

WLP060 American Ale Blend

Mash at 155 for 36 hours. Batch Sparge at 168.

Ferment at 70 degrees for 2 weeks. Secondary for 2 weeks with 2oz oak chips.

1 cup plus of corn sugar for priming to increase carbonation during bottle conditioning.

Questions:
1) The first batch I brewed was very high gravity (I was shooting for 1.088), but I achieved only 66% efficiency (had to add a little bit of DME). Because I am new to all grain can I assume that I will not hit the 90%+ efficiency everyone else is enjoying? Is 85% efficiency a reasonable guess?
2) Is my yeast a good choice? I picked WLP060 because it has some lager character like white labs san francisco lager yeast, but had better attenuation. Thoughts?
3) Any thoughts on the grain or hop bill?
4) For the mash, do I need to allow this to cool at all? How important is maintaining temp for the whole period of time? Also, I wanted more than just a slight sourness so I upped the time to 36 hours - will this make it a vinegar bomb?
5) I added oak chips due to reading about this beer being in barrels. How do you think this will work with the beer?

Thanks!

 

[KYB]

New to this style, but sounds verrrrry interesting. I only brewed my first all grain batch last weekend (brewed primarily partial mash beforehand due to lacking equipment, etc.), however I think this may be the next beer I brew.

Here is my preliminary recipe and some questions. As much critique/criticism as possible please!!!

1.049 OG
1.012 FG
16 SRM
85% efficiency
26.5 IBU
estimated 4.9% a.b.v
6 gallon boil
5 gallon batch

Malt and Fermenatables
5lb 8oz American Two-row Pale (71%)
1lb 8oz Flaked Corn (19%)
4oz Crystal 120L (3%)
4oz Chocolate Malt (3%)
4oz Brown Sugar (3%)

Hops
60min .75oz Cluster
15min .75oz Cluster
1min .75oz Cluster

WLP060 American Ale Blend

Mash at 155 for 36 hours. Batch Sparge at 168.

Ferment at 70 degrees for 2 weeks. Secondary for 2 weeks with 2oz oak chips.

1 cup plus of corn sugar for priming to increase carbonation during bottle conditioning.

Questions:
1) The first batch I brewed was very high gravity (I was shooting for 1.088), but I achieved only 66% efficiency (had to add a little bit of DME). Because I am new to all grain can I assume that I will not hit the 90%+ efficiency everyone else is enjoying? Is 85% efficiency a reasonable guess?
2) Is my yeast a good choice? I picked WLP060 because it has some lager character like white labs san francisco lager yeast, but had better attenuation. Thoughts?
3) Any thoughts on the grain or hop bill?
4) For the mash, do I need to allow this to cool at all? How important is maintaining temp for the whole period of time? Also, I wanted more than just a slight sourness so I upped the time to 36 hours - will this make it a vinegar bomb?
5) I added oak chips due to reading about this beer being in barrels. How do you think this will work with the beer?

Thanks!

Recipe looks good. I'd be interested in how it is with the brown sugar. I think 85% would be a good place to start. I brewed my first one again and hit 92%, although I did just get a new Barley Crusher. Any American Ale type yeast should work just fine. I've been wanting to do one with more hop character but haven't yet. I'm sure it would be great, feel free to try it. Are you using a cooler for a Mash tun? If so, just mash in, cover, and forget it. I think 36 hours mash time would be good for you if you want a little more sourness. I would guess that the barrels would have been lined to keep it from getting oaky, although that is just a guess. I read that's how it was with IPAs and apparently oak flavor was not wanted. That being said, I have been wanting to try a bourbon barrel of this beer. Maybe you could bottle half, throw some oak chips in for a week or so, then bottle that half. Also, my mash temps have been lower, 149-152, however 155 should be fine as well. Hopefully I answered everything. Good luck, definitely let me know how it goes and turns out.

 

[krugulitis]

I read that brown sugar, or even brewer's caramel was not uncommon in this beer - hence the brown sugar. I am using a modified cooler with a false bottom for a mash tun - only used it once, but it maintained temp for 90 minutes when I made a belgian ipa last weekend. I may ditch the oak altogether, it was just a guess as far as what I was reading. Also, I just love oak aging. Had one more question - why mash so low? It seems like with all the high percentage of adjunct in this beer that it would already have little body. That, coupled with the fact that I thought a more malty flavor was desired, made me think that mashing a little higher would suit the style. Thoughts?

 

[KYB]

Yea I did read about brewers caramel. I haven't tried anything except caramel malt. The 1908 book says mash temp varies greatly, so I guess it all depends what you want.

 

[krugulitis]

Thanks for all the advice!

Just thought of another question: How does the extended mash time affect your runoff? Did you get your expected volume of wort?

 

[KYB]

No problem. Yea I get my preboil volume. Just sparge with the right amount of water. Oh, and for a 5gal batch, pre-boil should be 6.4gal.

 

[ramthebuffs]

What exactly did you do? My first one I left the lid sitting on it upside down to vent - 24 hrs later it was nassty. Smelled terrible. Once it was beer it was fantastic, smell and taste. I wonder why yours has a funky smell still.

I followed one of your recipes and posts with the lid on etc. It just tastes like a week old pile of grass to me for some reason. Maybe its just my personal taste, I've had it in the bottle since early august and its gotten a little better, but its still take a sip and dump it. I've even tried keeping a few bottles at 34 degrees for a day or two. I do like the base beer taste sans the grassyness.

 

[KYB]

I followed one of your recipes and posts with the lid on etc. It just tastes like a week old pile of grass to me for some reason. Maybe its just my personal taste, I've had it in the bottle since early august and its gotten a little better, but its still take a sip and dump it. I've even tried keeping a few bottles at 34 degrees for a day or two. I do like the base beer taste sans the grassyness.

Hmm, weird. None of mine have had any grassy taste. I wonder what it could be.

 

[scone]

I followed one of your recipes and posts with the lid on etc. It just tastes like a week old pile of grass to me for some reason. Maybe its just my personal taste, I've had it in the bottle since early august and its gotten a little better, but its still take a sip and dump it. I've even tried keeping a few bottles at 34 degrees for a day or two. I do like the base beer taste sans the grassyness.

I did a little poking around, not sure if this helps you at all... This is straight from the BJCP study guide for diagnosing beer problems.

Grassy

This is the flavor and aroma of freshly cut grass or green leaves. Responsible compounds include the aldehydes hexanal and heptanal, which are produced by the oxidation of alcohols in the finished beer or the deterioration of improperly stored malt or hops. Some English and American hop varieties produce grassy notes if used in large quantities, but this flavor should not be a significant part of the profile.

Acetaldehyde

This compound has the taste and aroma of fresh-cut green apples, and has also been compared to grass, green leaves and latex paint. It is normally reduced to ethanol by yeast during the secondary fermentation, but oxidation of the finished beer may reverse this process, converting ethanol to acetaldehyde. Elevated levels are generally present in green beer or if the beer is prematurely removed from the yeast. It can also be a product of bacterial spoilage by Zymomonas or Acetobacter. Background levels of acetaldehyde can be tasted in Budweiser due to the use of beechwood chips to drop the yeast before it can be reduced to ethanol.

What I find interesting is the "can also be a product of bacterial spoilage by Zymomonas or Acetobacter". I wonder if some of those may have been working on your mash and this lead to the spoiling of the finished beer?

 

[ramthebuffs]

Could be, like I said, I followed the instructions, umm it just tastes like the way it smells when you stir it up before draining into the kettle. I'm fairly experienced, I brew on racking days always so its prob not equipment or user failure. Also, in Colorado I would expect we have less and somewhat different bugs floating around. I always do about a gallon of sparge sugar into a pitcher and add it to the top to clean it out etc. It was my first, and so far only, attempt at souring a beer which is a style I like. I'll keep it until next summer to see if it becomes fit for human consumption.

As for the bjcp thing, its not like freshly cut grass, its more like grass thats ready to start a fire if you've got a big enough pile. Probably a lot of the same bacteria at work in both..

 

[KYB]

Could be, like I said, I followed the instructions, umm it just tastes like the way it smells when you stir it up before draining into the kettle. I'm fairly experienced, I brew on racking days always so its prob not equipment or user failure. Also, in Colorado I would expect we have less and somewhat different bugs floating around. I always do about a gallon of sparge sugar into a pitcher and add it to the top to clean it out etc. It was my first, and so far only, attempt at souring a beer which is a style I like. I'll keep it until next summer to see if it becomes fit for human consumption.

As for the bjcp thing, its not like freshly cut grass, its more like grass thats ready to start a fire if you've got a big enough pile. Probably a lot of the same bacteria at work in both..

Maybe they were some bad grains or something. My mash smells pretty bad, but at pre-boil it smells sweet and sour.

 

[craigd]

I will be mashing in a Kentucky Common this evening with the intent of doing the boil about 36 hours from now. I am going with 6lb 2 row, 2 lb flaked corn, 4 oz 60L crystal, 4 oz UK Chocolate. Thanks for the info on your page ODaniel!

 

[claphamsa]

i almost mashed this tonight... but ill need the mash tun tommrow. maybe ill mash in sunday afternoon and boil after work monday....

 

[KYB]

I will be mashing in a Kentucky Common this evening with the intent of doing the boil about 36 hours from now. I am going with 6lb 2 row, 2 lb flaked corn, 4 oz 60L crystal, 4 oz UK Chocolate. Thanks for the info on your page ODaniel!

Cool. I just did that last weekend except with 120L Crystal, and 6-row instead of 2-row.

Post up how they turn out.

 

[claphamsa]

I mashed in!
5 lb 6row
2lb corn flaked
1 oz chocolate
4 oz crystal 20 (thought I had 40..... )

will sparge and boil tomorrow after work!

 

[KYB]

Awesome. I prefer the same amount of chocolate malt as crystal. Helps add and balance the slight chocolate, nutty flavors with the caramel flavors. I also prefer darker crystal. I'm sure it will still turn out great though. Let me know how it is.

Don't fear when you smell the mash tomorrow, it's going to smell bad.

 

[claphamsa]

Awesome. I prefer the same amount of chocolate malt as crystal. Helps add and balance the slight chocolate, nutty flavors with the caramel flavors. I also prefer darker crystal. I'm sure it will still turn out great though. Let me know how it is.

Don't fear when you smell the mash tomorrow, it's going to smell bad.

yeah, i was gonna use 40... but didnt have any, and i did a 3 day mash once

 

[KYB]

Haha I bet that smelled good. I I've tried 60 and 80, I think I like 120 the best. The batch I have in the fermenter now has 120.

 

[Ryan_PA]

You will have to supply me with a bottle or two Claphasma

 

[claphamsa]

Haha I bet that smelled good. I I've tried 60 and 80, I think I like 120 the best. The batch I have in the fermenter now has 120.

yeah, i almost threw up when i opened the cooler...... took about9 months to mellow enough to be a drinkable berlier.....

 

[claphamsa]

You will have to supply me with a bottle or two Claphasma

maybe......

 

[craigd]

Mine was only slightly sour smelling after 36 hours but I didn't inoculate it or open the fermenter until the end - no really nasty smells when I did. I lost about a quart or 2 of first runnings because my cheap mash tun wasn't as water-tight as I thought it was. Thankfully I had the presence of mind to put the mash tun inside another vessel in case it dripped! In the end I came out with 4.5 gallons of 1.045 wort after the boil. I have it fermenting at 65F now.

One of the guys in my club was interested in the brew and is going to try to match the sour with acid malt so we can do a comparison vs the long mash. I hope in the end this comes out nice - the total tab at the LHBS including using flaked corn instead of grits was $21 so it would be a great cheap session beer as well as a unique style to showcase.

 

[claphamsa]

One of the guys in my club was interested in the brew and is going to try to match the sour with acid malt so we can do a comparison vs the long mash. I hope in the end this comes out nice - the total tab at the LHBS including using flaked corn instead of grits was $21 so it would be a great cheap session beer as well as a unique style to showcase.

Funny, I thought about this too... except I noticed how expensive it was! im used to useing .50$ an lb 2 row... and the 6 row wasnt something I had bulk of

 

[KYB]

Mine was only slightly sour smelling after 36 hours but I didn't inoculate it or open the fermenter until the end - no really nasty smells when I did. I lost about a quart or 2 of first runnings because my cheap mash tun wasn't as water-tight as I thought it was. Thankfully I had the presence of mind to put the mash tun inside another vessel in case it dripped! In the end I came out with 4.5 gallons of 1.045 wort after the boil. I have it fermenting at 65F now.

One of the guys in my club was interested in the brew and is going to try to match the sour with acid malt so we can do a comparison vs the long mash. I hope in the end this comes out nice - the total tab at the LHBS including using flaked corn instead of grits was $21 so it would be a great cheap session beer as well as a unique style to showcase.

I'd be interested as to how that turns out. The books call for "2% lactobaccillus in the yeast", but I have no idea how to do that. I know White Labs sells the bacteria, but I don't know how to get 2%. A sour mash is cheaper anyway.

I though my LHBS was a little pricey, but everything for me for my past KY Common (recipe #1) cost $16. I calculated it on BeerSmith, if you bought everything in bulk for the 1908 recipe, it would be about $6.50 for a 5 gallon batch

 

[phished880]

A couple of silly questions....

1. Is this the same (or similar) process which is used to create bourbons/ TN whiskey? I've got a boss who loves bourbon and would love to get one of these in his hand if they are similar

2. Can I use my regular fermenters and kegs or do i need to use a dedicated "sour" set?

Thanks
J

 

[claphamsa]

Phished... its beer, so no its nothing like bourbon

and yes you can use all your regular stuff. the souring happens in the mashtun, and you will boil it afterward, so it will kill off the lacto growth!

when I did my Berliner (many day mash ) I bleached the mashtun after, but im paranoid... I dont think i needed to....

 

[KYB]

Yes bourbons do use sour mashes, and this does have some of the flavors associated with bourbon (caramel in particular), but I think that's about as close as it gets to bourbon. I've been wanting to do a mock bourbon barrel with this beer. I feel like it would work very well. And as clap said, your normal equipment will be just fine. Everything is killed off in the boil.

 

[phished880]

Phished... its beer, so no its nothing like bourbon

Thanks for the heads up!:rockin:

This sounds great, it will be added to the list, maybe it'll get oaked.

cheers