Kegging

[Aki]

Hey all,

After trying to figure out reasons for off-flavours in my homebrew (my homebrew really tastes and smells like homebrew which is a shame given that I am unable to find any major process flaws except for fermentation ambient temp), I've decided to buy a mini fridge with an Inkbird to control fermentation temp. I started thinking however that wouldn't it be the same to invest in Fermenter King Junior or similar pressurised fermenter and build a keezer at the same time? Would this improve quality of my brews since oxygen would not be a problem?

Thanks and cheers!

 

[NSMikeD]

Yes on fermentation chamber and a kegerator. I made a kegerator from a mini fridge when my son came home from college and a fermentation chamber from a mini fridge I picked up on Craig’s list for under $100. The fermentation chamber is controlled with a $30 WillCo I got on Amazon. Controlling temp significantly reduced off flavors for me and kegging is way more convenient and easier than bottling. I brew 2.5 gallon batches so the mini fridge option works for me. After I built the kegerator I was unhappy with off flavors caused by fermentation temps.

I don’t find oxygen to be an issue. The airlock takes care of that during fermentation and purging air when you keg materially limits exposure to the point that my palette cannot detect. You can save money with a second fridge/mini fridge if the budget demands.

 

[Aki]

Thank you for the information!

 

[SouthForkBrew]

What sort of off flavors are you getting in the finished product?

 

[slurms]

For what it's worth, I used to make only 1 gallon batches, which were quite mediocre, at best. I chanced it to get a 5 gallon BIAB system going, with a mini fridge fermentation chamber and one for a kegerator (very tightly holds two kegs). Really, just going up in volume made my beers taste so much better. Not quite sure why, but oh well.

Anywhy, definitely go for the ferm chamber. From my experience, kegging is much easier and probably better than bottling from an oxygen standpoint (but, my brown ale that I bottled 2 months ago still tastes great).

I'm working on making a closed keg transfer with my fermonster (if USPS get's their stuff together and actually tell me where my package is with all that stuff...). I'm thinking kegging under CO2 will really give me the best results. Something to consider.

 

[Aki]

Thanks.

Regarding off-flavours, we had long discussions in another thread and the result was I have to buy/build at least fermentation chamber: Upgrading equipment to increase brew quality

Interesting to hear that small batch had more off-flavours than bigger one.. I'll investigate that too. Thank you

 

[eric19312]

I am skeptical that kegging is easy way to improve beer quality. It is convenient for sure and very cool. Also you don't have to teach your friends to pour carefully and leave the sediment in the bottle.

Mostly I think homebrew beer from kegs seems better than homebrew beer from bottles is the brewers using kegs on average have more experience than the brewers packaging in bottles.

 

[McKnuckle]

You're probably right about the experience factor, but there are plenty of knuckleheads - with or without experience - using kegs.

The best thing that kegs provide is the ability, using the right techniques, to keep oxygen out of the beer to a far greater extent than with bottles. That, and force carbonating offers a remedy for all of the carbonation challenges that people seem to have when priming bottles.

 

[slurms]

Yeah, I would agree. My only observation was increasing my batch size. Though, after one brew bottling 5 gallons, I immediately gave up to kegging. I'm by no means a seasoned brewer, but they are definitely a lot better after those switches

 

[bracconiere]

with or without experience - using kegs.

watch it there buddy!

if you clean and sanitize i'd imagine a keg would easier then bottles?

 

[McKnuckle]

I brew one gallon batches sometimes, which I would traditionally bottle. But I recently got one of those cute little 128 oz. kegs with a screw on ball lock-equipped top. Love it! We have such cool gadgets to play with these days.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0777FF242/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QCYRSRK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[eric19312]

You're probably right about the experience factor, but there are plenty of knuckleheads - with or without experience - using kegs.

The best thing that kegs provide is the ability, using the right techniques, to keep oxygen out of the beer to a far greater extent than with bottles. That, and force carbonating offers a remedy for all of the carbonation challenges that people seem to have when priming bottles.

I agree but would add that the learning curve to do good oxygen free kegging is substantial. I've done it quite a few times and still run into difficulty on some batches and know I am still far from ideal on my best days. Bottling takes learning to rack gently, calculate priming sugar (or don't and use carb drops), and benefits from live active yeast in the bottle taking up at least some of the oxygen introduced.

 

[Beermeister32]

There are definite benefits to both kegging and bottling. For glugging brew without dealing with decanting bottles, kegs rule. For putting up a variety of brews, bottled beer lets you keep multiple styles around a long time lagering in a refrigerator in their bottles.

Bottles do a great job at oxygen scavenging, but kegs can too if you naturally carbonate the kegs with corn sugar. I usually use 3/4 cup, corn sugar, about 4.3 ounces for most styles.

 

[Beermeister32]

Some kegs are portable too, here is my mini keg:

 

[NSMikeD]

Some kegs are portable too, here is my mini keg:View attachment 710960

Love it. I have a 1.75g mini to go with my 2.5g kegs. For a special occasion I will brew a batch for that on and take it with the CO2 cartridge a tap line. I will also bring it to my beer distributer who had a growler wall and fill it with a local brew and tap in in my kegerator in between brews.

I also have 34oz glass bottles with the swing cap (like grolsh) that I will fill from my tap and bring with me to a friend/family dinner like a growler.

 

[Brews and Blues]

Just built a kegerator and you guys are right - there is a definite learning curve.

The good:
The kegerator is built successfully.
I had a peanut butter porter brewed and ready to be bottled or kegged.

The bad:
I bought a used keg. I cleaned it out with oxyclean and sanitized with StarSan. But, I racked my beer into it forgetting to take the ball lock stems off for cleaning.
I also must have a leak somewhere because the keg did not carbonate and i am out of co2.
I did not create a head space of co2 before racking the beer. Now the beer is sitting in the keg in the fridge cold without any co2 on it.

Here is my question. Do i find the co2 leak, get a new tank, and continue with carbonating this beer? Or since i have kind of treated this batch like crap, do i throw it out and start over? This batch was infection free when racking into keg.
If i continue with trying to carbonate, should i try and clean those valve stems on the keg? Im afraid if i take them off, some kind of gunk is going to fall into the keg of beer and i don't feel like siphoning all of the beer out again.

Total newbie here so be gentle LOL

 

[HobbitBeer]

Get more CO2, get new gaskets for your posts and lid, and get a spray bottle with starsan in it.

Quickly exchange the gaskets after sanitizing them, add some CO2 (1-2PSI) and spray your connections with starsan. If you still have a leak, it'll foam up, but you've likely already addressed it with the lube and gaskets. You'll want to test your connections every single time you keg something, if not once a week - diluted starsan is cheap, but time and energy isn't!

If your keg is clean, you should be fine. I'd minimize O2 exposure as much as possible, but I'd still try to carb the beer up. At worst, it's a learning experience, and at best, you now have a pressure tested keg with new gaskets and a tasty peanut butter porter

 

[slurms]

Being a porter it will fare better with oxidation. Than a pale ale. So don't dump it. I'd say pressurize the keg to 12psi or so and then disconnect the gas and liquid lines. Spray starsan on top and look for leaks.

If you don't see anything, could be leaking from the gas post o-ring. Slap some keg lube on there to make sure the seal is nice and secure. A leak here is harder since the starsan trick won't work.

Also, consider getting a scale to sit your co2 tank on. It'll help show if you have a leak somewhere (other than the few oz to carb and serve).

I'll note that I did an open transfer with my porter and stupidly didn't notice the transfer tube was halfway up the keg. Splashed the heck out of it but went for it anyway. Still tastes fine.

 

[Brews and Blues]

Awesome thanks! This is actually exactly what I wanted to hear

 

[Beermeister32]

Seeing that this is a used keg which was not disassembled, you have no idea what crud might be in the dip tube or how long it has been there. You won't know if it is infected for a while.

I'd be inclined to dismantle the posts and the dip tubes. Get a line cleaning brush and run it through the dip tubes, then sanitize everything with Star San. If they all looked good upon dis-assembly, you will probably be OK. Replace all O-rings upon re-assembly. Usually you can re-use the big lid ring. Use silicone keg lube on everything including the stainless-to-stainless threads which can be galled easily.

What you find upon disassembly will guide you on what you want to do with the beer. If they were essentially clean, I'd be inclined to give it a try. If they are packed with old gunk, you might want to dump it, make a sour out of it, or serve it to you alcoholic friends. Just kidding, If there is crud, I think I'd dump it.

 

[Brews and Blues]

Now, lets say I resolve my leak issue... i have read about 100 different ways to carbonate the keg at different PSI. What do you guys recommend? I'm okay with waiting a few days for sure so i really don't care to roll the keg around to try and speed up the process.

 

[RolandD]

Here is my question. Do i find the co2 leak, get a new tank, and continue with carbonating this beer? Or since i have kind of treated this batch like crap, do i throw it out and start over? This batch was infection free when racking into keg.
If i continue with trying to carbonate, should i try and clean those valve stems on the keg? Im afraid if i take them off, some kind of gunk is going to fall into the keg of beer and i don't feel like siphoning all of the beer out again.

Total newbie here so be gentle LOL

Hobbit and Slurms are spot on. I'd get keg lube and an O-ring kit for your keg. If you didn't remove the dip tubes and ball lock connections for cleaning and sanitizing, I'd gently remove them and the lid, cover the openings with plastic wrap, remove the old O-rings, clean and sanitize everything and reassemble with new O-rings and a little lube. Then pressurize the keg and look for leaks. I like to pressurize to 30 psi to seat the lid. After checking for leaks with StarSan, I dry everything off and flip it over and let it sit for half an hour. If it's gonna leak, this should find it. If you set and forget, vent the keg, adjust your regulator and set and forget it.

 

[Brews and Blues]

I have a feeling that my issue lies somewhere between the co2 tank and the ball lock connector, because the keg was holding air when i purchased it. The guy pulled the release valve and showed me that it was holding air. So i have a feeling my issue is either the O-ring on the ball lock connector, the connection between the tank and the regulator, or the hose coming from the regulator.

 

[Beermeister32]

The O-rings on the ball lock connectors will flatten a bit and lose their seal. Also, if you store kegs outside the O-rings will check and crack from the UV exposure. I'm at the point now that I just change them out each time I clean a keg. They are cheap when bought in bulk. They are even available at Lowes.

 

[slurms]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/spare-post-o-rings-for-cheap.685708/
Check this thread for the o ring sizes, found them at Lowe's

 

[Brews and Blues]

Ok last question here... one my leaks are resolved. what PSI should i set this at if I want to just set it and forget it?

 

[slurms]

 

[slurms]

Use that for the 'set and forget' method. Find your temp on the left and the corresponding pressure.

 

[Beermeister32]

Mine 10-12 PSI depending on your preference, 34F

 

[Beermeister32]

O-rings are #9 and #83 available at Lowes.

 

[Wolffie]

I have a feeling that my issue lies somewhere between the co2 tank and the ball lock connector, because the keg was holding air when i purchased it. The guy pulled the release valve and showed me that it was holding air. So i have a feeling my issue is either the O-ring on the ball lock connector, the connection between the tank and the regulator, or the hose coming from the regulator.

If you also purchased new Ball lock connections screw cap type? check the plastics seal tip for excess plastic on the end. Amazon bad at shipping cheap ball locks (need inspected). also Plummer tape will help on threads and remove excess plastic ( wife's soft finger nail file ) will work till purchase of new ball lock & spares.
or go stainless. then just check in bowel of liquid for tiny leaks (gas head below surface. (pressure up higher for small leaks) I missed the leak by just spraying.

 

[Brews and Blues]

Update: last night i got my tank filled. I replaced the o-rings on keg's ball lock connectors. Made all of my connections. Set my turned it on and set to 12 psi (34 degrees in my fridge). I sprayed all over the keg with StarSan - no bubbles! So I was thinking that i solved my issue. But i look at the regulator gauges and the gauge held at 12 psi and then would almost tick and bounce every 5 seconds or so. I sprayed the connections from tank to regulator and regulator to line. Still no bubbles anywhere. I thought maybe i would let it run and maybe it would work out some kinks and steady itself out. I checked it about 10 minutes later and the regulator and gauges were ice cold. Almost frozen. The gauge was still ticking. So i turned everything off. I'm an early riser so i was done for the night.
Not sure where to turn from here. The keg was definitely carbonating because i opened the release valve and it was pressurized. But something isn't right. Could the regulator be bad?

 

[Beermeister32]

Sometimes they get cold when you are running large amounts of CO2 through them. Keep in mind the tank is filled with CO2 liquid which is turning into a gas. Not unusual to get cold. Sort of the same principal that AC or refrigerator units use to make things cold. I think you are on the right track. Proceed!

 

[VikeMan]

But i look at the regulator gauges and the gauge held at 12 psi and then would almost tick and bounce every 5 seconds or so. I sprayed the connections from tank to regulator and regulator to line. Still no bubbles anywhere. I thought maybe i would let it run and maybe it would work out some kinks and steady itself out. I checked it about 10 minutes later and the regulator and gauges were ice cold. Almost frozen. The gauge was still ticking. So i turned everything off. I'm an early riser so i was done for the night.
Not sure where to turn from here. The keg was definitely carbonating because i opened the release valve and it was pressurized. But something isn't right. Could the regulator be bad?

That bouncing gauge is not normal. It could be an issue with the gauge, or it could be an issue with the regulator.

 

[Brews and Blues]

Something is definitely not right. Before i left for work i turned it back on. I thought i would just let it run all day. I had my wife go check it and its out of co2. Its definitely leaking out somewhere and it isn't from the keg or connections there. The issue has to be somewhere on the tank/regulator

 

[eric19312]

I forgot all about the leaky draft system learning curve when I was thinking about the closed transfer learning curve but yep there is a lot to learn with kegging but you will get through it!

The trick to chasing down leaks in draft systems is to isolate parts of the system and test them one at a time.

Start with the regulator hooked up to the gas tank with tank turned on but the regulator turned off at the barb/MFL check valve. The 60 PSI gauge will read pressure that would be flowing to your keg if the check valve was opened. Note that pressure reading. Now turn off the CO2 supply at the tank. Wait 20 min or so and check the pressure reading on that 60 PSI valve again. If the regulator is leaking the pressure will have dropped, and if you are not sure if it dropped, when you turn the gas back on at the tank the needle will jump back up to where it should of been.

If the regulator passes the test without leaking now focus on the gas line going from the regulator to the keg (or manifold, what ever is the next connection). Unhook the connector from the keg, open the check valve at the regulator, turn on the gas at the tank if not already on, note the pressure on the 60 PSI gauge, turn off the gas at the tank and let it sit for 20 minutes again. If this leaks the leak is between the check valve and the keg connector. If it doesn't leak then you know your leak is at the keg.

If the keg is leaking you need to check the o-rings, replace any that are worn or cracked, and lube them all. My guess if your keg is leaking is you are not getting a great seal on the large opening. Some of them are a little fussy. Sometimes I "wiggle" them clockwise and then counterclockwise, back and forth a few times while supplying gas at 30 PSI until the fit feels very secure, then lock it in place with the clamp.

I will say one thing that really made a difference for me in reducing CO2 leaks was replacing all my tubing with EVA Barrier tubing with Duo Tight fittings and all my barbs with flare fittings. Everything is much more secure than I was ever able to achieve with barbs and hose clamps.

Good luck!

 

[Brews and Blues]

I forgot all about the leaky draft system learning curve when I was thinking about the closed transfer learning curve but yep there is a lot to learn with kegging but you will get through it!

The trick to chasing down leaks in draft systems is to isolate parts of the system and test them one at a time.

Start with the regulator hooked up to the gas tank with tank turned on but the regulator turned off at the barb/MFL check valve. The 60 PSI gauge will read pressure that would be flowing to your keg if the check valve was opened. Note that pressure reading. Now turn off the CO2 supply at the tank. Wait 20 min or so and check the pressure reading on that 60 PSI valve again. If the regulator is leaking the pressure will have dropped, and if you are not sure if it dropped, when you turn the gas back on at the tank the needle will jump back up to where it should of been.

If the regulator passes the test without leaking now focus on the gas line going from the regulator to the keg (or manifold, what ever is the next connection). Unhook the connector from the keg, open the check valve at the regulator, turn on the gas at the tank if not already on, note the pressure on the 60 PSI gauge, turn off the gas at the tank and let it sit for 20 minutes again. If this leaks the leak is between the check valve and the keg connector. If it doesn't leak then you know your leak is at the keg.

If the keg is leaking you need to check the o-rings, replace any that are worn or cracked, and lube them all. My guess if your keg is leaking is you are not getting a great seal on the large opening. Some of them are a little fussy. Sometimes I "wiggle" them clockwise and then counterclockwise, back and forth a few times while supplying gas at 30 PSI until the fit feels very secure, then lock it in place with the clamp.

I will say one thing that really made a difference for me in reducing CO2 leaks was replacing all my tubing with EVA Barrier tubing with Duo Tight fittings and all my barbs with flare fittings. Everything is much more secure than I was ever able to achieve with barbs and hose clamps.

Good luck!

AWESOME!!!! This all makes sense. This entire time, i have been kind of troubleshooting from the keg back. But really, i think i needed to go from the tank out. Unfortunately, I'm down a couple tanks of co2 at this point, but oh well. I feel like I'm really close to getting this working properly. I'm going to try this all this week and see what happens. Thank you!

 

[Brews and Blues]

I wanted to thank you guys for all the help on this thread. I ended up getting my keg system working perfectly. I kept my peanut butter porter and it is absolutely delicious. The keg system took some work to get down and definitely was a learning experience, but I think it has only fed fuel on my homebrewing fire. Pulling that tap handle and pouring a glass of my own beer has been super rewarding. Thanks again and I'm sure I will have more questions for my next batch!

 

[marc1]

I wanted to thank you guys for all the help on this thread. I ended up getting my keg system working perfectly. I kept my peanut butter porter and it is absolutely delicious. The keg system took some work to get down and definitely was a learning experience, but I think it has only fed fuel on my homebrewing fire. Pulling that tap handle and pouring a glass of my own beer has been super rewarding. Thanks again and I'm sure I will have more questions for my next batch!

So where was it leaking from?

 

[Brews and Blues]

So where was it leaking from?

I tracked it down to one of two places - Either the connection between the regulator and the line going to the keg, or the connector that latches onto the "air-in" post on the keg. I put on all new seals on the keg, redid the hose connections with new hose clamps, and it resolved the issue.