Kegged beer flat but has head

[jhollender]

Hi guys, first time really using my keg and I need some help. I've had my CO2 at 30 psi for a little while and did the whole force carbination thing. But when I go to serve it, my beer is flat while still having a pretty decent head. How can I correct this?

 

[day_trippr]

Define "a little while"...

Cheers!

 

[TheMadKing]

Sounds like you're likely losing carbonation in the lines. A few questions:

Did you turn the psi down to serving pressure (10-16 psi)?

How long are your lines?

What temperature is your beer?

Is it totally flat? Or just undercarbed?

 

[jhollender]

I initially had the keg set to 30 psi (rocked it a bit) and set for 2-3 days, then slowly worked it down to 10 psi. After first having the problem with the flatness, I put it back up to 30 psi for the past 2 days, but it seems to be the same now.

 

[bmbigda]

I would put it at the appropriate pressure using a forced carbonation chart and don't touch it for a few days. assuming the questions TheMadKing asked don't raise other concerns.

 

[jmcquesten]

The line length isn't long enough.

 

[jhollender]

Did you turn the psi down to serving pressure (10-16 psi)?
Yes, turned it down between 5-8 for serving

How long are your lines?
4 ft

What temperature is your beer?
It just outside in my garage, probably around 45-50 degrees

Is it totally flat? Or just undercarbed?
It's hard to tell with the head on the beer, but seems fairly flat

 

[bmbigda]

your beer is probably overcarbed and off gassing co2 in the kegs headspace. the turbulent pour and large foam head subsiding leads to an undercarbed glass. I think you just need to let it reach an equilibrium.

 

[day_trippr]

Please give this short thread a read.
It might help in the long run, as your system really needs to be set up properly...

Cheers!

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

At 45 to 50 deg and 10psi your undercarbed.Somebody will put up the chart.Also I used to have long lines and always had no head.Now I have 4 ft lines and get a perfect pour.So those that will say you have to short of lines (and there will be many)Its not the case.Speaking from experience. Usually foam and flat beer =co2 breakout.Look for restrictions or loose fittings allowing air to get in.Check your lines and up your pressure.

Edit: Just noticed you were at 30 for 2 days then dropped it down then cranked it up then turned it down.Its alittle tough to say at this point if its your lines or your carb level

 

[303Dan]

That's a long time at 30 psi. My bet is it's overcarbed and since it is way more carbonated than your serving pressure, co2 is coming out of solution in your beer lines causing the beer to pour foamy and flat once it hits the glass.

Are there bubbles in your beer line?

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1452662441.489589.jpghere is a carb chart to get the proper volume per temperature at what PSI setting.

 

[TheMadKing]

Try this: disconnect the gas line and pull the pressure relief valve until the hissing stops. Wait 5 mins and then try to pour a beer with the gas line disconnected.

If the beer still pours at the same rate and still foamy but flat, my bet is on overcarbed too. If it doesn't pour, then you're probably undercarbed.

If it pours normally, then you have another issue (probably line length/temp/pressure combo) or you have something causing turbulence in your line (like a hop seed stuck in your beer post)

 

[jmcquesten]

At 45 to 50 deg and 10psi your undercarbed.Somebody will put up the chart.Also I used to have long lines and always had no head.Now I have 4 ft lines and get a perfect pour.So those that will say you have to short of lines (and there will be many)Its not the case.Speaking from experience. Usually foam and flat beer =co2 breakout.Look for restrictions or loose fittings allowing air to get in.Check your lines and up your pressure.

Edit: Just noticed you were at 30 for 2 days then dropped it down then cranked it up then turned it down.Its alittle tough to say at this point if its your lines or your carb level

So, what pressure do you recommend for 4 ft lines if 10 psi is too low? This calculator http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/ says you need 11+ ft at 45° to get you just 2.2 volumes, which would probably be the lowest carbonation level you would ever need. The calculator also shows that to properly serve a beer though 4 ft of line, you would need to be at 31° with a serving pressure of 5.15 psi, giving you around 2.2 volumes, which is still on the low end of the carbonation level for most beers.

By telling the OP that line length is fine (at 4 ft), then telling them to up the pressure (making the problem worse) seems like sending them on a chase. Maybe some people have found ways to beat the effects of physics, but most haven't. It's better to give them information with something (science) to back it up, than what might work in one person's situation. If the system is properly balanced, with proper line lengths and the foam issue continues, then yeah maybe a fitting or connection is loose. But starting with 4 ft lines will be fighting an uphill battle.

Use the calculator (mikesoltys.com) to determine the right line length, then go from there. Don't settle for beer that's not properly carbonated, it's possible to get any level you want, as long as you have enough line to slow it down.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

So, what pressure do you recommend for 4 ft lines if 10 psi is too low? This calculator http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/ says you need 11+ ft at 45° to get you just 2.2 volumes, which would probably be the lowest carbonation level you would ever need. The calculator also shows that to properly serve a beer though 4 ft of line, you would need to be at 31° with a serving pressure of 5.15 psi, giving you around 2.2 volumes, which is still on the low end of the carbonation level for most beers.

By telling the OP that line length is fine (at 4 ft), then telling them to up the pressure (making the problem worse) seems like sending them on a chase. Maybe some people have found ways to beat the effects of physics, but most haven't. It's better to give them information with something (science) to back it up, than what might work in one person's situation. If the system is properly balanced, with proper line lengths and the foam issue continues, then yeah maybe a fitting or connection is loose. But starting with 4 ft lines will be fighting an uphill battle.

Use the calculator (mikesoltys.com) to determine the right line length, then go from there. Don't settle for beer that's not properly carbonated, it's possible to get any level you want, as long as you have enough line to slow it down.

I was referring to the volume chart posted above.At 50 deg and 10 psi he's at 1.9 volume way under, at 45 deg hes still under at 10 psi.I was having problems for almost a full year getting my system dialed in.I started out with the 5 ft lines that came with the tower.I was having issues with flat foamy beer.So according to everyones advise and the chart you posted I upped the lines to 8 then 9 then 10.I finally stopped at 10.I thought it was ok "ish" so I left it there.First pour was was ok but 2nd 3rd and so on were carbed but with no head.They just weren't "right".I upgraded my tap two a two tap.It came with four FT lines.I asked more then one retailer about the line issue and they all said were running homebrew with the 4 or 5 ft lines the tower comes with without issue.So I thought I give it a shot with the 4 ft lines my tower came with.Maybe its the line itself (Bevtek,I think) Is a thicker walled better line than my old one,or maybe I had a loose connection or a restriction somewhere on my old setup.Honestly I don't really know for sure.But The new setup with 4 ft lines at 37 deg and 11 psi gives me a perfect pour.I dial down the flow control for the first pour,but that's because of the warm tower not the lines.Every beer after that gives me a perfect pour with no breakout or carbonic bite.Im not trying to defy the laws of physics.Im saying it works and Im living proof that 4 ft lines work.The OP also said the keg was in his garage at 45 or 50 deg.Is that a keg just sitting in a winter garage not temp controlled with temp swings? The first step for the OP would be to figure out exactly what temp the beer is.

 

[day_trippr]

Ffs, a flow control faucet is the only reason you are getting away with four foot lines.
Let's try not to muck up the water with apples to oranges comparos...

Cheers!

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Ffs, a flow control faucet is the only reason you are getting away with four foot lines.
Let's try not to muck up the water with apples to oranges comparos...

Cheers!

I know what your sayin but that's only the first pour,maybe two.After that Im wide open on the flow control with a good pour. Ill check again(for at least the hundredth pour with the new setup) when I keg again in a week or so just to confirm my already known results.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

This is what my pours look like with a 4 ft line.This was just 3 weeks ago.Nice thick head and nicely carbed.I couldn't ask for much more. If I could figure out how to rotate I would

 

[william_shakes_beer]

OP; You said your keg was "just outside in the garage at about 45-50F". Do you have it in a chest freezer set at 45-50 (if so turn it down so you can absorb more co2) or is it sitting out in the garage and the ambient temp is 45-50? IMHO you need a chest freezer set at a constant temp to carb beer adequately. If its in the garage, ambient temp is going to fluxuate, changing the amount of co that the beer can absorb. It gets cold, it absorbs co2. It warms up, the co2 off gasses.

Everybody has therr own experinece, here's mine.

I first installed 1/4" lines 10 feet long in a keezer set at a temp of 35F with a 3 degree swing on the controller. I had nothing but foamy pours, even with flow control set to a trickle. Changed the lines to 3/16" x 12' and now have adequate pours even with flow controll tuned off. I do set and forget at 12PSI, usually for 30 days just because my keezer has 2 pouring plus one on deck.

 

[jmcquesten]

That looks like a nice pour, but if flow control faucets are being used, it's a different argument. The line length calculator that I linked to does not factor in flow control faucets. There are tricks to using shorter lines (plastic mixing sticks, flow control faucets, screwing with serving pressure every time, etc.), but there is a proper way to balance a system that will eliminate the need for the work-arounds.

Here's a picture from a few weeks ago. It's my Belgian style blonde carbonated to around 3 volumes at around 38°F (16-17 psi) and this was the first pour of the night. I think I have close to 16 ft of bevlex (3/16") going to each one 4 of my taps. One is a couple feet shorter, maybe 13 ft, and I notice a difference on that tap if I'm running a higher carbonated beer though it. For some beers, my long lines aren't needed, but other than a slower pour, there's not really any negative impact on the lower carbonated beers. Maybe a little less head, but I'm more concerned with the co2 that's in the beer rather than the the foam on top. Also, it's not just the carbonation level that determines the amount of head/head retention, the brewing process has something to do with it as well.

View attachment 1452701122577.jpg

 

[jhollender]

Try this: disconnect the gas line and pull the pressure relief valve until the hissing stops. Wait 5 mins and then try to pour a beer with the gas line disconnected.

If the beer still pours at the same rate and still foamy but flat, my bet is on overcarbed too. If it doesn't pour, then you're probably undercarbed.

If it pours normally, then you have another issue (probably line length/temp/pressure combo) or you have something causing turbulence in your line (like a hop seed stuck in your beer post)

So I did this and it only poured a little in a thin stream. Any suggestions for how I should carbonate it in ambient temperature since I don't have a keezer or fridge yet? Or, should I carb it inside first and then chill it before serving?

 

[TheMadKing]

So I did this and it only poured a little in a thin stream. Any suggestions for how I should carbonate it in ambient temperature since I don't have a keezer or fridge yet? Or, should I carb it inside first and then chill it before serving?

Then you're probably undercarbed.

Look on the carbonation chart for the temperature and volumes you want, set it at that psi and let it sit for 10 days or so.

You want to carbonate it as cold as possible because its easier for co2 to dissolve into cold liquid

 

[Yooper]

So I did this and it only poured a little in a thin stream. Any suggestions for how I should carbonate it in ambient temperature since I don't have a keezer or fridge yet? Or, should I carb it inside first and then chill it before serving?

You need to know the exact temperature of the beer. Not the ambient, or "about", but the temperature of the beer.

Then, set the c02 to the correct pressure per the above chart.

Then, get longer lines to serve it at that temperature. In general, the warmer the beer, the more it will foam and need more restriction (longer lines). Colder beer "holds" carbonation better and won't foam as much.

If your pressure is, say, 18 psi, you need 18' lines. In general, figure 1 foot of line for every 1 psi on the regulator. Longer is better, as the only 'problem' with a line that is too long is that it takes a couple of seconds longer to pour a beer.

 

[brewprint]

You need to know the exact temperature of the beer. Not the ambient, or "about", but the temperature of the beer.

Then, set the c02 to the correct pressure per the above chart.

Then, get longer lines to serve it at that temperature. In general, the warmer the beer, the more it will foam and need more restriction (longer lines). Colder beer "holds" carbonation better and won't foam as much.

If your pressure is, say, 18 psi, you need 18' lines. In general, figure 1 foot of line for every 1 psi on the regulator. Longer is better, as the only 'problem' with a line that is too long is that it takes a couple of seconds longer to pour a beer.

I haven't heard that but it makes perfect sense.

I find also that when a keg is down to the last 1/4 or so that my beers start to get foamier. Do you notice this as well?

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

I haven't heard that but it makes perfect sense.



I find also that when a keg is down to the last 1/4 or so that my beers start to get foamier. Do you notice this as well?

I've noticed that. Not sure if just coincidence or some sciency stuff going on as to why. But I have perceived foamier pours nearer the end of the keg in my opinion.

 

[brewprint]

I've noticed that. Not sure if just coincidence or some sciency stuff going on as to why. But I have perceived foamier pours nearer the end of the keg in my opinion.

Yep it happens all the time for me. I use 10 foot of line and keep mine about 11-12 psi. Perfect foam about the first 35 or so pours. Then it starts to get foamier.

 

[Gavin C]

Define "a little while"...

Cheers!

Please give this short thread a read.
It might help in the long run, as your system really needs to be set up properly...

Cheers!

OP: All the answers to balancing a system are right there in those links. Listen to @day_trippr