Keg Force Carbing Methods Illustrated

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Thanks balrog. 2 weeks! That must be why I have never used them...

That's the time for really nice carbonation, small bubbles, etc.

I've never successfully waited that long to pull one to see how it tastes. The carbonation isn't ideal, but they're always very drinkable, even after just a few days.
 
Thanks balrog. 2 weeks! That must be why I have never used them. Hope to buy enough kegs someday to have a pipeline like that. Well I guess with one more keg I could do a quick force and let the other 5g of 10g batch slowly carb.

I thought those charts could be used for quicker force, no?

Think I have this right, at a given temp and psi only a certain volume of co2 can be absorbed. Weird, seems like it would just keep pumping it in. Is that newton's law of gases? The science interests me more than the beer. For the beer I just gorilla it and drink warm.
Actually, it's Henry's law:
Concentration of gas [in aqueous solution - i.e. beer] = H * Partial Pressure of CO2, where H is Henry's constant​
Henry's law applies at equilibrium, and says nothing about kinetics of gas dissolution (i.e. how fast the gas dissolves in the liquid.) Each gas has it's own Henry's constant and they vary by orders of magnitude between different gases. CO2 has a large Henry's constant compared to other gases. The Henry's constant varies with temperature, with decreasing temperature having higher Henry's constant.

The carbonation tables just tabulate the value of equilibrium CO2 concentration at various pressures and temperatures. How long it takes to reach equilibrium depends strongly on the ratio of liquid volume to gas/liquid interface surface area. Larger surface area (many small bubbles of gas forced into the liquid has a much higher surface area than the still surface in a keg) means faster absorption of gas, and the quicker equilibrium is reached.

Gas absorption rate also depends on the difference between the applied pressure and the pressure that would be in equilibrium with the liquid at its current level of carbonation. The gas goes in faster when the beer is less carbonated, and the absorption rate slows to almost zero as the beer gets close to fully carbonated. This is why burst carbonation speeds things up - it increases the pressure difference, so absorption rate increases. But, if you leave the excess pressure applied too long then you get over carbonation.

Partial pressure is an important concept, because for CO2 absorption, only the pressure of CO2 has any effect. Any other gas in the head space will increase the total pressure (which affects the gauge reading), but has no effect on CO2 absorption. Remember a pressure gauge only measures the difference between the pressure in the cylinder and atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi). So if your pressure gauge reads 14.7 psi then the absolute (total) pressure in the headspace in 14.7 + 14.7 = 29.4 psi. If you have a mix of gases in the headspace, then the pressure due to each gas alone is referred to as that gas's "Partial Pressure," which is always given in absolute pressure, and NEVER gauge pressure. All of the different gas laws work only with absolute/partial pressures, and not gauge pressures.

Let's say that you don't purge you headspace after filling the keg, and then pressurize with CO2 to 14.7 psi. Then the partial pressure of the air is 14.7 psi and the partial pressure of the CO2 is also 14.7 psi. Thus the headspace is half air and half CO2. On the other hand, if you purge all the air after filling (which you really should do) then the headspace would be 100% CO2, and the partial pressure of CO2 would be 29.4 psi. You will get a huge difference in carbonation between CO2 partial pressures of 14.7 and 29.4 psi.

That's probably geeky enough for one post. If anything's not clear, just ask (but you may get waaaay more explanation than you want. :) )

Brew on :mug:
 
@applescrap , yes, those charts are set and forget, "static"
Your keg sits at some temp.
You look across the chart to find the volumes CO2 you want
You look to the PSI required
Set that PSI and walk away for 2 weeks.
@applescrap , yes, those charts are set and forget, "static"
Your keg sits at some temp.
You look across the chart to find the volumes CO2 you want
You look to the PSI required
Set that PSI and walk away for 2 weeks.
Do i have to chill the keg for this to work or does it require more time? I don't have a fridge, what i do have is a fermentasaurus fermenting a pale ale with kveik under pressure. High pressure. 24 psi. I'm hoping this will carb the beer up and then I'm hoping to figure out how to bottle from it after. I'm thinking to let it ferment out and then take it to a much cooler room and let it sit there for a couple of weeks. Then purge the gas down to serving pressure and use a modded beer gun (basically a beer gun with a stopper to act as a counter pressure filler )
 
Do i have to chill the keg for this to work or does it require more time? I don't have a fridge, what i do have is a fermentasaurus fermenting a pale ale with kveik under pressure. High pressure. 24 psi. I'm hoping this will carb the beer up and then I'm hoping to figure out how to bottle from it after. I'm thinking to let it ferment out and then take it to a much cooler room and let it sit there for a couple of weeks. Then purge the gas down to serving pressure and use a modded beer gun (basically a beer gun with a stopper to act as a counter pressure filler )
You can use the carbonation charts/calculators to tell you what level of carbonation you will end up with if you know the fermentation temp and pressure. In your case if we assume a 66°F ferm temp, then you will end up with about 2.3 volumes of carb. You will lose some of that carb during the bottling process, even with a counter pressure filler.

You could do a little bottle priming to get the final carb level higher, but after a pressurized fermentation, you cannot use the available priming calculators. The calculators all assume unpressurized fermentation, which results in about 0.8 volumes of carb at the end of fermentation. If you tell the calculator you want 2.5 volumes, then the calculator will tell you how much sugar to add to get an additional 1.7 volumes (0.8 + 1.7 = 2.5.) In your case if you added that much sugar, you would end up at a little below 4 volumes, and that will put you in bottle bomb territory.

Brew on :mug:
 
You can use the carbonation charts/calculators to tell you what level of carbonation you will end up with if you know the fermentation temp and pressure. In your case if we assume a 66°F ferm temp, then you will end up with about 2.3 volumes of carb. You will lose some of that carb during the bottling process, even with a counter pressure filler.

You could do a little bottle priming to get the final carb level higher, but after a pressurized fermentation, you cannot use the available priming calculators. The calculators all assume unpressurized fermentation, which results in about 0.8 volumes of carb at the end of fermentation. If you tell the calculator you want 2.5 volumes, then the calculator will tell you how much sugar to add to get an additional 1.7 volumes (0.8 + 1.7 = 2.5.) In your case if you added that much sugar, you would end up at a little below 4 volumes, and that will put you in bottle bomb territory.

Brew on :mug:

Thanks for the reply! So if I'm going to loose some co2 while bottling, should I go higher ? I'm now at 24 psi. Maybe 28? That puts me on the high green on the charts . Also what is your opinion? You think my plan will work ? Bottling from a warm fermentasaurus ? I've read that I'll have some real foaming issues. What about serving pressure? Like 5-6 psi? I'm calling this batch a learning batch. I'm hoping for good results but I'm also prepared for a bad bottling day o_O:ban:
 
Well. The beer is allready in there so... I'll try and share my results when I'm done :confused::confused::rock:.

For co2 absorption? Still 2 weeks at chart pressure? More?
 
Well. The beer is allready in there so... I'll try and share my results when I'm done :confused::confused::rock:.

For co2 absorption? Still 2 weeks at chart pressure? More?
If you are bottling, this question makes no sense. Two - three weeks to reach equilibrium at chart temp & pressure applies for unagitated beer absorbing CO2 from the headspace. If you are carbonating by fermenting, the CO2 starts in solution, so no absorption is necessary. The rate of CO2 generation depends directly on the rate of fermentation. If the partial pressure of CO2 in the headspace above the fermenting beer is less than the equilibrium partial pressure for the current beer temp and current carb level, then CO2 will escape from the beer into the headspace. This will pressurize the headspace, unless it is vented.

Brew on :mug:
 
If you are bottling, this question makes no sense. Two - three weeks to reach equilibrium at chart temp & pressure applies for unagitated beer absorbing CO2 from the headspace. If you are carbonating by fermenting, the CO2 starts in solution, so no absorption is necessary. The rate of CO2 generation depends directly on the rate of fermentation. If the partial pressure of CO2 in the headspace above the fermenting beer is less than the equilibrium partial pressure for the current beer temp and current carb level, then CO2 will escape from the beer into the headspace. This will pressurize the headspace, unless it is vented.

Brew on :mug:

Thanks! I don't know man. I've read some where that beer takes co2 in faster when cold. Haha. Totally new to this. What people did before this forum I don't know. Thanks again for schooling a newbie like me
 
Thanks! I don't know man. I've read some where that beer takes co2 in faster when cold. Haha. Totally new to this. What people did before this forum I don't know. Thanks again for schooling a newbie like me
The correct statement is that "cold beer absorbs more CO2 than warm beer, at the same CO2 partial pressure." This statement says nothing about rates. In general, things happen faster at higher temperatures, but I have not seen anything about relative rates of CO2 absorption at different temperatures.

Brew on :mug:
 
CO2 is absorbd only at the gas/liquid interface (a.k.a. surface ;)) as Doug already pointed out. From this point on CO2 has to get evenly distribuited throughout the liquid through diffusion. What happens in practice is that until equilibrium is reached you'll have a CO2 gradient going from highest immediately beneath the surface to lowest in the point farthest from the surface. Since there is no "force" pulling the CO2 molecules from one point to the other they only move around randomly through diffusion. As the speed at which the molecules move around is dependent on their kinetic energy, at higher temperatures (=higher kinetic energy) they will move around faster and this will have the effect that a uniform distribution at equilibrium will be achieved faster than when the beer is at a lower temperature.
 
And here is the only table I could find with diffusion coefficients for CO2 at different temperature.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/diffusion-coefficients-d_1404.html

Going from 10°C to 25°C the coefficient goes from 1.26 to 1.91 which is an increase of 51%. I'd expect the difference between 0°C and 25°C to be over 100% but couldn't find any source in this range.
 
The correct statement is that "cold beer absorbs more CO2 than warm beer, at the same CO2 partial pressure." This statement says nothing about rates. In general, things happen faster at higher temperatures, but I have not seen anything about relative rates of CO2 absorption at different temperatures.

Brew on :mug:
Sorry! Norwegian here, so the language could be better. :D But yeah, what you said. :yes: good to know.
 
And here is the only table I could find with diffusion coefficients for CO2 at different temperature.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/diffusion-coefficients-d_1404.html

Going from 10°C to 25°C the coefficient goes from 1.26 to 1.91 which is an increase of 51%. I'd expect the difference between 0°C and 25°C to be over 100% but couldn't find any source in this range.
So what you're saying is that the co2 will be absorbed faster at higher temperatures. Cool , thanks man.
 
If you rely on a bottle of CO2 gas for carbing your kegged beer, there are basically two ways to go about it; set and forget and what I'll call "burst carbing". Some folks talk about this second method as "force carbing" but it's all done with force so forget it. For example sake, let's assume you want to carb your 45ºF beer to 2 volumes of CO2....

Set and forget relies on certain gas laws that will determine the carbonation level based on pressure and temperature. The volumes of carbonation will eventually reach an equilibrium to the head space pressure that is applied (what the regulator is set to). You'd use the charts like this one http://www.kegerators.com/carbonation-table.php to figure out what that pressure needs to be. In our example, the chart shows it would take 9 psi to reach 2 volumes in your 45ºF beer.

The second method, burst carbonation, uses a much higher initial pressure and even some gas diffusion techniques like shaking or airstones to encourage a quicker solution of the gas. In our example, you might put 30psi on initially. If you refer back to the chart, you'll see this pressure, if left long enough will equilibrate to 3.79 volumes given enough time. The trick/difficulty in this method is knowing how long to leave it at the elevated pressure to get close to your desired volumes without overcarbing.

Some people understand pictures better than words so I drew this.

forcecarbillustrated.gif


The green line is the set and forget method. You can see that it will take about 2 weeks to reach your desired volumes. Some folks will argue that they have carbonation in 1 week but "some" carbonation is not exactly equilibrated carb level though you might enjoy it anyway. I'm not 100% sure how long it takes but I have noted an increased carb level between week 1 and 2 on more than a few batches so I'm calling it 2 weeks to get it pretty close. You'll notice a small increase from week 2 to 3 but it's slight.

The blue line is just an example of a well executed boost carb. You'd leave it at approximately 3 times the equilibrium pressure for 24 hours, then drop it down and purge the keg so the headspace is now at the "chart pressure". If you do it right, you'll get close and then it will only take a couple more days to reach your desired volumes.

Highlighted for emphasis: More often than not, people in a hurry will try boosting even more by going with higher pressures and/or shaking the heck out of the keg. This usually results in what the red line is showing. You overshoot the carb level and then fight with the keg for several days to get it back down by purging the pressure a few times.

The final point I want to make is that the only reason I'd advocate a boost carb is when your beer has already aged/conditioned prior to making it to your kegerator and you need the beer to be drinkable in less than two weeks (poor planning on your part of course). I noted on the chart that if you went from primary right to keg at week zero, no matter how fast you carb, it will still take at least 3 weeks to taste decent. Therefore, why boost carb at all?
I hate to post in what was probably answered in this thread, but I don't have the patience to browse 30 pages.

If I'm doing the set it and forget it method and setting PSI to say 9 as an example used above, once that PSI is believed to have been reached (or it has been 2-3 weeks), should the PSI then be turned down to 2, keeping the volume absorbed to 2 PSI? I believe that if kept at 9 the beer would continue to absorb until it reaches 9 (physics?)... At the same time, however, 2 PSI serving pressure seems very low.

So, I'm confused what is done on the regulator side once you're happy with the amount of co2 the beer has absorbed.
 
If you carb using chart pressure, once the beer has reached equilibrium (in a bit over 2 weeks for a full five gallon cornelius style keg) it's going to sit right there forever unless you change the conditions (temperature or pressure). It won't gain carbonation.

Ideally you want to maintain the carbonation level through dispensing. If your dispensing temperature is the same as the carbonation temperature you should use the same chart pressure and tune your dispensing system to handle it properly. Folks that have to dial down the dispensing pressure are coping with a poorly tuned system. Not ideal as that means the beer will slowly lose carbonation until it reaches the "new" equilibrium...

Cheers!
 
I have a fermentasaurus full of beer fermented under pressure with Voss kveik at 30celcius (86 Fahrenheit). Its now sitting at room temp.

How long to fully carb this beer at room temp?

I was kinda hoping it would carb up while fermenting under pressure but while I get a lot of foam when pouring, probably because of the high pressure in the fermentasaurus, its flat.
I fermented at 24 psi and it dropped all the way down to 1004 in a matter of days. The taste is wonderful.
 
I have a fermentasaurus full of beer fermented under pressure with Voss kveik at 30celcius (86 Fahrenheit). Its now sitting at room temp.

How long to fully carb this beer at room temp?

I was kinda hoping it would carb up while fermenting under pressure but while I get a lot of foam when pouring, probably because of the high pressure in the fermentasaurus, its flat.
I fermented at 24 psi and it dropped all the way down to 1004 in a matter of days. The taste is wonderful.
Right now you are sitting at about 1.7 volumes, which would be fine for a porter or stout, but not for most other styles. At the end of fermentation, the carbonation level of the beer is pretty close to being in equilibrium with the CO2 pressure in the headspace, so unless you add CO2, it's not going to get any more carbonation. What process do you propose to use to increase carbonation level?

The foaming when pouring is knocking out most of what little carbonation is in the beer. Foam is formed when CO2 rapidly comes out of solution. You could reduce foaming somewhat by serving thru about 30 feet (10 m) of 3/16" (~4.75 mm) inner diameter tubing. But room temp serving will always foam more (lose more carbonation) during the pour than will cold temperature serving. At normal serving temps, you need about 1 ft of 3/16 line for each psi, but because of the greater foaming level at higher temps, I estimated additional length to help control foaming.

Brew on :mug:
 
Right now you are sitting at about 1.7 volumes, which would be fine for a porter or stout, but not for most other styles. At the end of fermentation, the carbonation level of the beer is pretty close to being in equilibrium with the CO2 pressure in the headspace, so unless you add CO2, it's not going to get any more carbonation. What process do you propose to use to increase carbonation level?

The foaming when pouring is knocking out most of what little carbonation is in the beer. Foam is formed when CO2 rapidly comes out of solution. You could reduce foaming somewhat by serving thru about 30 feet (10 m) of 3/16" (~4.75 mm) inner diameter tubing. But room temp serving will always foam more (lose more carbonation) during the pour than will cold temperature serving. At normal serving temps, you need about 1 ft of 3/16 line for each psi, but because of the greater foaming level at higher temps, I estimated additional length to help control foaming.

Brew on :mug:

Thanks! I've got a sodatream adapter with a regulator. 10m of tubing. That is a lot.:confused:Why is it at 1,7vol? My chart says that to achieve 2,4-2,5 volumes I wanted, I had to keep it at 25 psi at 18-20 degrees celcius (65 Fahrenheit). Anyway. Thank you for your help, greatly appreciated:yes:
 
Thanks! I've got a sodatream adapter with a regulator. 10m of tubing. That is a lot.:confused:Why is it at 1,7vol? My chart says that to achieve 2,4-2,5 volumes I wanted, I had to keep it at 25 psi at 18-20 degrees celcius (65 Fahrenheit). Anyway. Thank you for your help, greatly appreciated:yes:
25 psi at 65°F will give you 2.38 volumes, and 25 psi at 68°F will give you 2.27 volumes. However, if you start with a sealed vessel at 86°F, and cool it down, the pressure will drop in the headspace, so without adding more CO2 to maintain pressure, you won't get the carb level you expected from the starting pressure.

Brew on :mug:
 
Got it thanks! So once Its carbed up(2-3 weeks) release pressure down to serving pressure, ca 3-5psi, then bottle.
Your missing something about how this works. It's not going to "carb up" any from where it is, unless you do something to add more CO2.

When bottling, it's customary to ferment at 0 psi, and then add sugar when bottling in order to get additional fermentation in the bottle. It is that in bottle fermentation that creates the CO2 that carbs the beer. When kegging, you force CO2 into the keg at a specific pressure, which is determined by the temperature of the beer and the desired carb level. It's also possible to just add sugar to the keg, and treat it as a very large bottle, but you still need a CO2 system to serve the beer.

Brew on :mug:
 
Your missing something about how this works. It's not going to "carb up" any from where it is, unless you do something to add more CO2.

When bottling, it's customary to ferment at 0 psi, and then add sugar when bottling in order to get additional fermentation in the bottle. It is that in bottle fermentation that creates the CO2 that carbs the beer. When kegging, you force CO2 into the keg at a specific pressure, which is determined by the temperature of the beer and the desired carb level. It's also possible to just add sugar to the keg, and treat it as a very large bottle, but you still need a CO2 system to serve the beer.

Brew on :mug:
No, not missing. Just forgot to say that I'm using gas set to wanted level for 2,5 volume and then leaving for 2-3 weeks. As for bottling I have a beer gun and a plan. We will see.
I know its custumary to bottle using sugar, which also leaves sediment, which is something I don't want. I've been doing it for years o_O

Thanks again for the response and for your time
 
No, not missing. Just forgot to say that I'm using gas set to wanted level for 2,5 volume and then leaving for 2-3 weeks. As for bottling I have a beer gun and a plan. We will see.
I know its custumary to bottle using sugar, which also leaves sediment, which is something I don't want. I've been doing it for years o_O

Thanks again for the response and for your time
Sorry, your failure to mention that you were using forced carbonation led me to think you were more of a novice than you actually are.

Yes, 2 - 3 weeks at the proper pressure for the temp and carb level will get you carbed up. However, if you are still planning to bottle warm, then you are very likely to have excessive foaming, with associated loss of carbonation, due to the fact that CO2 comes out of warm beer much faster than cold beer, and the higher CO2 pressures involved at warmer temps. Even if you reduce the push pressure, you have "pressure" in the beer itself which will force CO2 out of the beer when filling bottles. A counter pressure filler will help minimize foaming, but may, or may not, be enough to insure success.

Brew on :mug:
 
Sorry, your failure to mention that you were using forced carbonation led me to think you were more of a novice than you actually are.

Yes, 2 - 3 weeks at the proper pressure for the temp and carb level will get you carbed up. However, if you are still planning to bottle warm, then you are very likely to have excessive foaming, with associated loss of carbonation, due to the fact that CO2 comes out of warm beer much faster than cold beer, and the higher CO2 pressures involved at warmer temps. Even if you reduce the push pressure, you have "pressure" in the beer itself which will force CO2 out of the beer when filling bottles. A counter pressure filler will help minimize foaming, but may, or may not, be enough to insure success.

Brew on :mug:
Yeah, I'm more or less using this batch to determine if its possible or not. I also have a carbonation cap as a backup plan, I've tested it and it works. I'm sure it will take a million years to fill PET bottles this way, but that's better than utter failure. As for the beer gun. I'm thinking about putting a stopper on the gun, filling the bottles with co2, start filling beer and then releasing pressure by squeezing the stopper when bottle stops filling , thanks to pressure equalizing in the bottle, until bottle is full. I'm thinking the beer needs to be over carbonated to get acceptable carbonation.
Thanks you man, you've been very helpful.
 
Yeah, I'm more or less using this batch to determine if its possible or not. I also have a carbonation cap as a backup plan, I've tested it and it works. I'm sure it will take a million years to fill PET bottles this way, but that's better than utter failure. As for the beer gun. I'm thinking about putting a stopper on the gun, filling the bottles with co2, start filling beer and then releasing pressure by squeezing the stopper when bottle stops filling , thanks to pressure equalizing in the bottle, until bottle is full. I'm thinking the beer needs to be over carbonated to get acceptable carbonation.
Thanks you man, you've been very helpful.
I think your plan is about the best possible for your given situation. Good luck. I use the stopper trick to fill bottles from kegs, but have never tried it warm.

Brew on :mug:
 
I'm thinking the beer needs to be over carbonated to get acceptable carbonation.
All that overcarbonation is going to get you if filling warm is even more uncontrollable foaming. I wouldn't try and fill warm even with a real counterpressure filler, much less with a kludge such as the beergun. I counterpressure fill as near as possible to 0°C and even at that temperature the slighest disturbance will start the beer foaming out of the bottle and cause me to scramble for the capper, at room temperature the beer fountain will probably cause you to repaint the ceiling and/or the walls of your brewery...
 
All that overcarbonation is going to get you if filling warm is even more uncontrollable foaming. I wouldn't try and fill warm even with a real counterpressure filler, much less with a kludge such as the beergun. I counterpressure fill as near as possible to 0°C and even at that temperature the slighest disturbance will start the beer foaming out of the bottle and cause me to scramble for the capper, at room temperature the beer fountain will probably cause you to repaint the ceiling and/or the walls of your brewery...
Hahaha Yeah! I know, you guys have been telling me! :ban:
I Just have to try and see it for myself. I'm sure it'll fail but initial testing with my pressure bottling cap have been promising. Even with full on carbonation I have been able to bottle, cap and retain most of the co2 in the beer. I now have to see if its possible with glass bottles and the beer gun and stopper. I'll post a video while failing for your amusement ;)
 
For the life of me I don't understand why this particular image keeps disappearing from this thread - @Bobby_M included it in his OP, and it it went missing I dragged it out of an Google archive many months ago, yet it fails to persist.

At least this time I can refresh its presence from my own hard drive...

forced_carbonation_plot.gif


Cheers!
 
this is my first keg........after prepping/sanitizing everything hit it with 25psi rocking the corny as it pressurized; disconnected the in line...rolled the keg around for a bit. released the air. Put the keg in the fridge hooked the in line back up at about 8psi. Now I guess I am just waiting right?
 
What made you pick 8 psi? Did you reference a carbonation calculator, chart, table, wizard, carbonation swami....?

If none of the above, take a look at our favorite carbonation table. Plug in the temperature you will be holding your keg(s) during dispensing and find that value on the Y-axis. Then scan across that row until you find the carbonation level you desire - expressed in "volumes of CO2", where ~2.4 volumes is roughly common to many ales. Then run up that column to find the correct CO2 pressure to use to maintain that carbonation level.

As for the rest, depending on how cold the beer was and how long you were rocking the keg, you may have not reached your desired carbonation level, or hit it dead nuts, or overcarbonated the keg. I mean the entire gamut of possibilities exists sans more information :)

If you want a safe, sane way to carbonate a keg in an afternoon (literally a few hours), take the beer's temperature, use the table above, set your regulator to that pressure, connect up the keg, and rock it until you can't hear any more gas going into the keg. Set the keg in its cold home for an hour, then take it back out and repeat the rocking until, again, you can't hear gas moving. Repeat maybe twice more and you'll have a decently carbonated beer, and there's zero risk of overcarbonating...

Cheers!
 
For the life of me I don't understand why this particular image keeps disappearing from this thread - @Bobby_M included it in his OP, and it it went missing I dragged it out of an Google archive many months ago, yet it fails to persist.

At least this time I can refresh its presence from my own hard drive...

View attachment 674812

Cheers!

I had it hosted on a domain that I let lapse.
 
Back
Top