Keeping Missing OG

[bobbyshambo21]

I need some help here guys and gals. I've been brewing for a little over a year and have recently made the jump to AG. I've been really hit and miss with my OG's and I'm not sure what to do. It's a total bummer to hugely miss your OG. Maybe I'm missing something... Below is some info on my setup/ recipes.

10 gallon AG round igloo cooler system
5 gallon batches
AG "kits from NB- so I have some tried and true recipes
Single infusion recipes

I start my brew day by preheating my MLT. When I mash in, I add the grain in 2-3 pours, stir til I get a homogenous mixture. Check the mash temp.- I'm always within a couple of degrees. (I always shoot a bit high because it's easier to cool the mash down than warm it up). Mash for 60 Min- as per recipe. Stir every 20 min. and check temp. to assure homogenous mixture/ prevent cold spots. My mash usually only drops a degree at most.

I've changed up whether or not I do a mash out. A guy at the home brew shop said it wasn't necessary, but as I was missing my original gravities, I brought it back into the process. Even if I do a mash out, my temp never gets high enough. Last batch I added 2 gallons of boiling water to a 4.25 gallon mash at 152F and it only pushed it up to 164.5F. I then collect first runnings, recirculate until fairly clear. (I may recirculate too long causing my temps. to drop?). Begin fly sparging/ draining into BK. About 1" of water above grain bed. Sparge water at 175F.

Collect runnings until I reach pre-boil-volume necessary. I check the runnings periodically with my refractometer to make sure I'm getting extraction and that the runnings are not going below 1.010 towards the end.

Boil, chill, etc. etc.

Recipes
Brickwarmer Holiday Red: OG- 1.064: Can't remember if I used a mash out for this one. OG was something like 1.052-56- Can't find my notes on this one....
Chocolate Milk Stout: OG 1.049: grist ratio 1.33, No mash out, actual OG 1:048
Waldo Lake Amber: OG- 1.063: grist ratio 1.33, No mash out, Volume ended low (just over 4 gallons), actual OG 1.056
Jamil's Evil twin: OG- 1.064: grist ratio 1.33, Mash out (see above), volume a bit high, actual OG 1.050

I use brew365.com for water calculations. I have done some research on OG's being low. Everybody points to the crush first, I don't think that is my problem here, I just use the LHBS's mill. I do not do an iodine test for conversion (I don't fully understand what it does/ means). I've read up on other types of mash outs, i.e. decoction mashing. Any help would greatly be appreciated....

 

[johnsnownw]

Things to consider:

1. The accuracy of your thermometer.
2. Your crush, your crush, your crush. My efficiency has gone up 5% using my own mill.
3. The accuracy of your refractometer...make sure you're cooling the wort before testing, even if your refractometer has ATC.

I don't mash-out and I fly sparge typically 45 min. My efficiency is about 80%. I have also found that adding rice-hulls to every mash has helped keep my efficiency tight...can't prove it's actually responsible, however.

 

[Spectre216]

You could always try mashing longer and see if that helps

 

[adixon3]

Are you adjusting your water profile for the style?

 

[bobbyshambo21]

I'll have to check my thermometer, but it's a digital and I bought/ calibrated it when I started AG.

I understand the crush can impact my efficiency, but then I would at least be consistently off if I keep going to the same lhbs? And just have lower efficiency?

When I take my og it is after I chill the wort. I use lab grade narrow range hygrometers and look to temperature correct if necessary.

I could mash longer. Maybe take it up to 90 minutes? Though if the recipe calls for 60, why wouldn't I be extracting enough sugars in that time?

On another note, what do iodine tests actually do?

 

[johnsnownw]

I understand the crush can impact my efficiency, but then I would at least be consistently off if I keep going to the same lhbs? And just have lower efficiency?

I could mash longer. Maybe take it up to 90 minutes?

The LHBS mills are usually adjustable, and people go all kind of crazy on them. So, the mills could just be set too wide...keeping them a little wider also reduces wear...something the LHBS would be concerned about.

60 min is just a standard time...mashing for 90 can help if your grain is slow to convert...for any number of reasons.

As for Iodine...:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Iodine_test

BTW, how exactly are you fly sparging...as in what's your method?

 

[jrfehon]

I recently switched to AG as well and was experiencing low efficiency. People suggested the crush to me too. So when I went to my local store I asked the guy to double mill my grains. He told me it wasn't the crush and I should sparge with 190 degree water (I normally sparge with 170 degree). So he only crushed the grains once. I brewed today and hit 75% efficiency. The only thing I did differently was the 190 degree sparge.

 

[jrfehon]

I'll add that I also checked my thermostat and hydrometer after I experienced low efficiency. My thermostat was off by 5 degrees and my hydrometer is low by three points. Now it check my thermostat before every brew.

 

[johnsnownw]

I recently switched to AG as well and was experiencing low efficiency. People suggested the crush to me too. So when I went to my local store I asked the guy to double mill my grains. He told me it wasn't the crush and I should sparge with 190 degree water (I normally sparge with 170 degree). So he only crushed the grains once. I brewed today and hit 75% efficiency. The only thing I did differently was the 190 degree sparge.

FWIW, I sparge at 170°.

 

[bobbyshambo21]

I think the lhbs has there mills locked at a certain point... If not, how can I tell if I'm getting the right crush? I would be okay with getting a mill if I thought it would solve my problem, however, I run into the same problem of having no way to judge if my crush is good.

What method of fly sparging am I using? I guess I'm too much of a noob to know that there are different ways to fly sparge. Care to enlighten me on what you mean?

 

[RM-MN]

I think the lhbs has there mills locked at a certain point... If not, how can I tell if I'm getting the right crush? I would be okay with getting a mill if I thought it would solve my problem, however, I run into the same problem of having no way to judge if my crush is good.

What method of fly sparging am I using? I guess I'm too much of a noob to know that there are different ways to fly sparge. Care to enlighten me on what you mean?

Posting a picture on here would help as there are some pretty experienced brewers who know what the crush should look like. Unless you are doing something totally wrong (which it doesn't appear to be the case from your initial posting) your efficiency problems are nearly certainly the crush.

 

[bobbyshambo21]

Okay, so I guess what I'm hearing is that it is almost guaranteed that my crush is the problem, and that if I can dial that in, and make sure my post boil volumes are good, I should be hitting my numbers dead on. I will obviously check my thermometers and hydrometers to ensure accuracy and maybe bump up my mash times to 90 min. I'm a little weary to bring my sparge water up to 190 because if the grain bed gets too hot I could start extracting tannins. Anybody have any thoughts on sparge water temps./ mashing out?

 

[jrfehon]

I'm a little weary to bring my sparge water up to 190 because if the grain bed gets too hot I could start extracting tannins. Anybody have any thoughts on sparge water temps./ mashing out?

I was weary too about using 190 degree sparge water. However, when you mash out you're using boiling water, right? All it does when sparging with 190 degree water is bring up the temp of your grain bed to the 170 range. When I brewed yesterday I mashed at 148 and after 80 minutes (I was watching my 6 month old daughter so I got distracted) the grain bed was at 147 before drawing my first runnings. I sparged twice with 2 gallons of water at 190. After the first sparge my grain bed was in the upper 150s. After the second sparge it was at 168 - no where near hot enough to extract tannins. I was in the same boat as you until yesterday. The only change was temp of my sparge water. I'm not saying that's definitely your problem because there are so many variables but its worth looking into.

 

[RM-MN]

For your next batch, simplify. Do a batch sparge, don't worry about mash out since it isn't necessary with batch sparging. Since you don't need to add the really hot water for mash out, you won't have to worry about tannin extraction either. You can use hot water or cold water for a batch sparge with little effect on the efficiency of the extraction of sugars so that might simplify some too.

Doing a longer mash will compensate for a poor crush to some degree. If you get a decent bump in the efficiency from the long mash, that would point to the crush as being the problem. Longer mashes gives time for the water to penetrate the bigger grain particles and do the conversion, then leach those sugars back out.

 

[RM-MN]

I was weary too about using 190 degree sparge water. However, when you mash out you're using boiling water, right? All it does when sparging with 190 degree water is bring up the temp of your grain bed to the 170 range. When I brewed yesterday I mashed at 148 and after 80 minutes (I was watching my 6 month old daughter so I got distracted) the grain bed was at 147 before drawing my first runnings. I sparged twice with 2 gallons of water at 190. After the first sparge my grain bed was in the upper 150s. After the second sparge it was at 168 - no where near hot enough to extract tannins. I was in the same boat as you until yesterday. The only change was temp of my sparge water. I'm not saying that's definitely your problem because there are so many variables but its worth looking into.

That and the longer mash period.

 

[johnsnownw]

What method of fly sparging am I using? I guess I'm too much of a noob to know that there are different ways to fly sparge. Care to enlighten me on what you mean?

For instance this is how I fly sparge:



Here's a video of the sparge, pardon my son whining and the music. Just showing how gentle this specific method is on the grain bed, and how slow you can sparge:

[ame]http://youtu.be/_wWvWicZYgg[/ame]

It's a SS cake pan with small holes drilled. My fly sparge process takes about 45 min on average to complete.

Another question(s), how do you stabilize your Ph? Acidulated malt, acid addition...etc? What Ph are you shooting for in your mash?

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

You do not need the pie pan. All you need to do is to maintain about an inch of liquid above the grain bed in your mash tun. You can either lay the hose on top of the grain bed or have it dangling above the liquid (I leave it dangling). In either configuration, you should lay the cooler top on top of the hose to help reduce heat loss. Except for a short foray with a Phil's Sparge Arm in the nineties, I have always continuous sparged this way. I routinely achieve mixed grist extraction rates in the 30 to 32 points per pound range.

I also do not crush my malt really fine (the gap on my two-roller mill is set to 0.040"). A fine crush is not required to achieve high extraction rates when continuous sparging. It's important to leave as much husk material intact as possible to in order to prevent channeling through the grain bed. The non-raised portion of a credit card should freely pass through a two-roller mill that is used to crush grain for continuous sparging. The gap on one's two-roller mill is too tight if rice hulls are necessary to prevent a set mash while continuous sparging.

By the way, the flow rate in the video is too fast. I have a 3/8" hose barb (1/4" internal diameter) on my hot liquor back, and I still have to throttle the outflow back quite a bit. It should take between forty-five minutes and an hour to collect 7 to 8 gallons of runoff.

 

[johnsnownw]

You do not need the pie pan. All you need to do is to maintain about an inch of liquid above the grain bed in your mash tun. You can either lay the hose on top of the grain bed or have it dangling above the liquid (I leave it dangling). In either configuration, you should lay the cooler top on top of the hose to help reduce heat loss. Except for a short foray with a Phil's Sparge Arm in the nineties, I have always continuous sparged this way. I routinely achieve mixed grist extraction rates in the 30 to 32 points per pound range.

I also do not crush my malt really fine (the gap on my two-roller mill is set to 0.040"). A fine crush is not required to achieve high extraction rates when continuous sparging. It's important to leave as much husk material intact as possible to in order to prevent channeling through the grain bed. The non-raised portion of a credit card should freely pass through a two-roller mill that is used to crush grain for continuous sparging. The gap on one's two-roller mill is too tight if rice hulls are necessary to prevent a set mash while continuous sparging.

By the way, the flow rate in the video is too fast. I have a 3/8" hose barb (1/4" internal diameter) on my hot liquor back, and I still have to throttle the outflow out back quite a bit. It should take between forty-five minutes and an hour to collect the 7 to 8 gallons of runoff.

It takes about 45 min to collect 7 gallons...so I have to disagree with you that it's too fast. My mill is set at 1 mm, so basically the same.

The top is off for the video.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

It takes about 45 min to collect 7 gallons...so I have to disagree with you that it's too fast. My mill is set at 1 mm, so basically the same.

The top is off for the video.

The liquor appears to be flowing at a much faster rate in the video.

BTW, I confused you with the OP.

 

[johnsnownw]

The liquor appears to be flowing at a much faster rate in the video.

BTW, I confused you with the OP.

If it's the liquid coming out of the hose, I think it just looks fast as it's hitting the side of the pie pan. Not to mention that the pie pan won't drip water until it has about a uniform 2-3 mm of water collected in the bottom. If you think the water dropping from the pie pan seems to be flowing faster than that rate...then that's just a product of the video...I guess.

 

[bobbyshambo21]

I've never batched sparged. Do I just add half of the sparge water. Stir like mad and then collect runnings? Do that twice? Does that really simplify anything? Or is it just likely to rinse the grains better than a fly sparge?

I've noticed that people say that collecting 7-8 gallons of wort takes about 45 min. I think I'm going faster (though I've never timed it). I would guess 30 minutes? If I slow it down perhaps I will rinse the grain bed better?

Is it necessary to move the sparge sprayer around while fly sparging? My guess is no- being that there is 1" of water above the grain bed, so it will drain through it fairly uniformly.

Thanks for all of the input. I can't wait to nail this down.

 

[jrfehon]

You can do two sparges with batch sparging but you can do only one if you want. You also don't have to drain your runnings slowly. Open the valve all the way. It's much simpler than fly sparging. There are plenty of threads here that explain the difference.

 

[bobbyshambo21]

I also just realized that mash PH was brought up a couple of times. I do nothing at this point to correct my water. I just tap water. I thought the only impact of ph was flavor?

 

[stpug]

bobbyshambo21, you didn't mention what kind of filtering system you're using. I suspect a false bottom but thought I'd ask.

 

[bobbyshambo21]

You are correct in assuming false bottom.

 

[johnsnownw]

I also just realized that mash PH was brought up a couple of times. I do nothing at this point to correct my water. I just tap water. I thought the only impact of ph was flavor?

pH is incredibly important.

Read this, all of it, but especially pay attention to the pH section:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph..._and_efficiency_in_single_infusion_mashing#pH

It would be in your best interest to use a water calculator such as Bru'n Water. You'd also need the water profile for your tap in order to use them.

Keeping your mash pH consistent is far more important when fly sparging, than batch.

I get far better efficiency with fly sparging, than I ever did with batch.

 

[bobbyshambo21]

Thanks for all the help guys. I'm brewing a winter warmer this weekend, so in gonna try to change one variable at a time and dial in my system.