Keep in primary or more to secondary?

[ThreeTaps]

My first brew of Blonde Ale is 8 days into the primary stage now. I know that I want to keep it going for 3 weeks prior to bottling, but am not sure if I should keep it in the primary for that long or switch it to a secondary in a few more days. What I'd like is the best taste possible with as little trub/yeast as possible collecting in the bottom of the bottle, once that stage happens, as well as high clarity.

Should I move it to a secondary soon to increase the clarity and reduce the leftover solid matter that could otherwise transfer to the bottle?

Would that compromise the taste of the beer or have a negative effect on exposing it to the "outside" when transferring it?

Any advise is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Revvy]

If you do a search for "long primary" or "no secondary" you will see the almost daily discussions about it. A lot of us subscribe to the long primary/no secnondary school and believe that that gives us the clearest and best tasting beer...plus we've cited our our reasons ad nauseuem, including what Palmer says in how to brew to back it up....there is plenty of info already on here to let you make up your own mind.

You won't have to dig far. This is a multiple daily asked question.

There's also a sticky in the similar threads box down below.

 

[ThreeTaps]

Revvy,

Thanks for the reply, however in the time it took to write the message telling me to basically "stop asking a question that has already been asked in many of the other 1,000,000 posts here", you could have provided a helpful response on what you personally would do.

I have searched already, and read about 400 posts in the last week, many of them on this topic and I do understand that most prefer to keep it in the primary, as well as Palmer's book saying so (I have it and have read it a couple of times).

The reason I asked the question is because I would like to know roughly how much clarity I would be compromising by keeping it in the primary, if any, compared to how much solid matter might be transferred to the bottle if kept in primary. None of the posts, as far as I read (which may not have been enough, but I did read a lot), gave a helpful indication about these two factors when compared to each other.

 

[Revvy]

If you read those 400 posts you might have come to realize that those of us who do it do it because we believe that it increases clarity to leave it in primary longer.

and we've given the reasons why in those posts, multiple times....

I was suggesting you search becasue to be honest, this thread will probably get little traffic and little help becasue the answers are already here. And most people will pass this thread by..

I was actually trying to be helpful....

The thing to me about searching is two fold, and I really hate coming off as a search nazi, BUT

1) There is a huuuge amount of state of the art brewing info on here...info that is even more current than palmer (only becasue it takes 2-3 years to get a book out.) Some of us have spent hours writing stuff up, like blogs or long answers to basic questions, including searching for links like audio and video casts to answer those basic questions...And we want you to know it exists, and we want you to utilize it to be the best damn brewer's you can be.

SO when I say it's been covered before, I'm not saying "hey a$$hat, use the search."

I'm saying "Hey, there's some kick ass info on that very topic, put together from some amazing brewers, and it's free, right here, you don't need to buy a book....all you need to do is click "search" and maybe play with the words a couple times...


2) A lot of the "kick ass brewers" who are here, and were here before I got here have stopped answering the same noob questions over and over. Most of those people get tired of it after a couple months, and just ignore these threads...From what people tell me, for doing it constantly for a year, I'm an anomoly....maybe because of my 'calling" (yes I am a minister for the 10,000th time ) I have an almost pathological need to help people...whether it's in a church or in a brewery.

Which means that the people who might be best able to answer your basic question are NOT going to because they did it 6 months ago, and feel that that's enough. Or they are no longer here...but their info is still here and still valuable...

So that really means that if you just start a thread, especially if you are asking about "Stainless vs Aluminum" or Plastic waterbottles or "is my beer ruined," or "what;s your opinion on...?" You may not GET THE BEST INFORMATION YOU COULD BE GETTING You could be getting the same outdated "party line" out of Palmer or Papazian, (which are actually several years of in the case of Charlie over a decade old) when there was some new discovery a few weeks back that we all talked to death and learned from...and we want you to know about it too...

I also have found, as someone that answers a lot of questions everyday, that if a person reads a thread on their "basic question" first and maybe bumps that thread up, that their question has a lot more depth than it might have been...because maybe they zeroed in on an issue from one or more of the posts in a thread...and then rather than,

"What's that fuzzy stuff on top of my beer?" To "Oh I thought my beer was infected, now I know it's a krauzen, it's normal, and it has proteins and other things in it, so what kinda proteins are there, do they come from the yeasts, the wort or both, and should I skim it or not?"

Which is more fun for me to answer because it may lead me to search, or to google or to recall some fuzzy bit of info I heard on a podcast and go search for it for you...and for me...

I hope you realize that those of us who suggest that you search for an answer not trying to be mean to you, nor are we lazy...we just want you to have the best brewing info that there is to be found on here...and there is plenty of it.

And btw, it took me NO time to write the first answer, just like it took no time to write this one, I just cut and pasted it..

 

[Picobrew]

threetaps - it isn't really quantifiable. It is going to be highly dependent on technique and individual circumstances.

Here is what I do:

-I only ever primary except in very rare cases (like I need the bucket for another beer).
-When transferring to bottling bucket, I put the primary in the siphoning location the day before or at least hours before bottling, so that every thing settles out.

I don't cold crash, I don't use finings, and I don't secondary. I do use a wort chiller and whirlfloc. I get really clear beer (after it sits in keg or bottle for awhile).

There isn't a definitive answer here - from my experience, secondary is much more work than it is worth, and as you have read from your 400 post reading frenzy, some people think hanging out on the yeast cake in the primary makes the beer taste better, not just clear it.

edit: also, be nice to revvy, this is his job you know.

 

[mr_clean]

I always secondary

 

[ThreeTaps]

Thanks Pico, that was very informative. I did not pick up on the fact that many believe the yeast cake actually clears the beer as you mentioned. I also hadn't heard about moving the primary to the bottling station a day before bottling to let the particles settle...another great suggestion that made me smack my head and say, "I'm a friggin software engineer...why didn't I already think of that?".

In any case, time is really of the essence for me lately. I'm completing my masters degree while working over 50 hours per week at my job, while heading up a ministry in my church that provides free computer related services to underprivileged schools and families in the area. There are times where I can sit and browse the forums for a couple of hours, but it's not often. I usually have only 5-10 minutes at a time (right now being an exception, luckily), which is why I asked this noobish question here so that I could get a response in the absence of taking the unavailable time to search deeper. As a software engineer, I figure that if 3 people who are new to brewing respond with their personal opinion, and 2 long-timers respond with theirs, I can average it out and get a percentage that signifies an approval for keeping it in the primary. If that percentage is at least 51%, then I do it. I also have created and maintained many online forums, one of them rising to the status of 20,000 unique visits every day and over 1.5 million total posts in three years. I know very well the life cycle of veteran posts and newbie posts, and also understand that while veteran posters probably won't respond to the beginner questions after usually 4 months, that the newbies from 4 months ago who now have the information will.

Thanks for the help all.

 

[Picobrew]

Justin, forgot the statistics - you are pressed for time, don't secondary. It's that simple.

cheers,
pico

 

[ThreeTaps]

Justin, forgot the statistics - you are pressed for time, don't secondary. It's that simple.

cheers,
pico

Thanks for putting it frankly

 

[ajf]

My first brew of Blonde Ale is 8 days into the primary stage now. I know that I want to keep it going for 3 weeks prior to bottling, but am not sure if I should keep it in the primary for that long or switch it to a secondary in a few more days. What I'd like is the best taste possible with as little trub/yeast as possible collecting in the bottom of the bottle, once that stage happens, as well as high clarity.

Should I move it to a secondary soon to increase the clarity and reduce the leftover solid matter that could otherwise transfer to the bottle?

Would that compromise the taste of the beer or have a negative effect on exposing it to the "outside" when transferring it?

Any advise is appreciated. Thanks!

This is actually quite a complicated couple of questions:
Can a secondary help with clarity?
and
Can a secondary compromise the taste?

IMO the answers are yes and yes,

Let's look at the clarity issue first.
If you rack to a secondary carefully, you will leave a certain amount of solid matter behind in the primary, and this will result in a clearer beer when you bottle. If you rack carefully however, this difference will be so small as to be unnoticeable.

Now let's consider compromising the taste.
When you rack, you will remove a large amount of yeast. If you do this too early, you will remove so much yeast that it cannot clean up after itself. This can cause many off flavors. Additionally, each time you rack (unless you can exclude oxygen) you will oxidize the beer, resulting in more off flavors.

Unless there is a good reason for using for using a secondary (such as dry hopping or lagering), I believe that a 3 - 4 week primary fermentation produces better results than using a shorter primary followed by a secondary.

On the rare occasions that I do use a secondary, I flood the secondary vessel with CO2 before racking to minimize oxidation problems

-a.

 

[LarryC]

In this months BYO magazine they did a bit of scientific testing on just this subject. I don't want to spoil the results but the bottom line is - it seems to be a matter of personal preference over any big up or down side. People found slight differences in taste but some liked the no secondary variety and some like the secondary'd brew. Clarity and color fell out almost the same way.

It was an interesting article, I thought it would end the debate for all time but alas, that ain't the case

 

[ThreeTaps]

Thanks for the information!

 

[davesrose]

In this months BYO magazine they did a bit of scientific testing on just this subject. I don't want to spoil the results but the bottom line is - it seems to be a matter of personal preference over any big up or down side. People found slight differences in taste but some liked the no secondary variety and some like the secondary'd brew. Clarity and color fell out almost the same way.

Every time I've tried a tried and true recipe with either 3+ week primary only vs including a secondary, I get similar results when it comes to clarity and flavor. When it comes to flavor, especially, temperature differences and such can do more then when to rack from primary. IMO, ingredients and technique are so much more important then "to primary only, or not to primary only". People are entitled to their beliefs: the real truth is that it's hard to muck up beer once it has fermented, and only you can say which of these approaches is better. Personally, since I didn't see much difference with either...I've settled on a technique that gives me the most compacted sediment at the end (for my own techniques...YMMV). I do secondary and crash cool before I syphon off to a keg: simply because even my first pours tend to be clearer that way I've noticed.

 

[TheMan]

Haha, you got guts to lay into Revvy...He's a great resource and when searching I find him very useful. He's given me good advice when I post as well, so go a little easy lol.
I fit into the "4 month brewer" category you mentioned in your post. I brew with 2 friends, and have done over 80 gallons in that time, and we have tried every method so far.

We find the secondary useless, unless you are adding special flavors. It increases the chance of off flavors and clarity has not been much of an issue. Irish moss or Whirlfloc do wonders. Hell, I have started dry hopping in the primary. So far this has worked great for me. As long as you don't leave it on the yeast for too long (I think over 4 weeks) and keep the temps stable, you should not get any weird flavors.

I know you said you have limited time, but I would suggest trying each method out eventually. Depending on all of your techniques one might do better than the other. I cannot, for the life of me, convince my brother that the secondary is not needed. He does it for every single brew and thinks it gives him his best beer. I think he's wrong lol.

I don't think there is a right or wrong on this. You asked for opinions though, I say just do a long primary. It's less trouble and the results are too similar.

 

[ThreeTaps]

Thanks for the advice, TheMan. I do plan on trying everything in time, but not when it really matters (ex: family from both sides coming over for thanksgiving, so I really need to have a great pumpkin ale ).

As far as the altercation with Revvy, I do understand that there is no tone of voice or auditory inflection when reading online, which is probably why his response was a bit off to me. It's something that anybody could relate to given the situation that they don't know the person doing the writing. I typically, in my prior forums, play it safe and go the extra mile for somebody new and provide a link to a previous discussion on the matter should they be requesting info. This kills two birds with one stone: it shows them that if they were to take more time to search that they would find the answer they're seeking, but it does so in a way that cannot be perceived as confrontational. Everybody leaves happy.

 

[jackson_d]

Relax dude. Everyone here is friendly. Everyone is also busy, just like you. This is a great resource for unlimited info and conflicting opinions on diff ways to do the same things, which is great. The fun is to try everything every diff way that sounds good to you, and form your own opinion, and then post how you feel about something next time someone asks a questions about it. Revvy meant nothing personal by it, he donest know you and you dont know him. Also understand that for some of the veterans here, they have been answering the same questions for years over and over..\

As for me, if i can wait long enuff- i primary everything 3 weeks. No questions asked. I dont even take gravity readings. Justlet it sit if you can stand it. Then sometimes a 1 week secondary, especially if dry hopping. But you can also go right into the bottle after 2 weeks of primary. But IMO the longer you let it sit on the yeast cake (but no longer than 4 weeks) the clearer the beer. And a one week secondary, then siphoning to the bottling bucket from the top of the secondary as gently as possible, produces the clearest results. But thats just my experience...

Good luck and have fun

 

[SamuraiSquirrel]

You should secondary it. That way when you are describing your brew to your family you can sound cooler. You can tell them it was in the primary for a week and then also a "secondary fermentation".

As for my opinion on the actual difference other than sounding cool to non home brewers..............

If your primary is a plastic bucket you can't see it clearing. If you transfer it to a glass carboy for secondary you can watch it get pretty. When I first started brewing I wanted to see everything. I even refused to use buckets for primary so I could watch see my beer. Visibility is the only benefit I have seen from the secondary which is probably not a benefit at all since you are letting more light in.

After you are a couple batches in and realize that watching it does not good then you cut out extra work that you determine make no difference....... ie. fermenting in carboy vs. bucket, or transferring to a secondary.

Just giving my opinion, not trying to offend anyone who uses carboys or secondaries all of their beers. To each their own, do what works for you.

 

[TheMan]

ThreeTaps, check this pumpkin ale recipe out. I've not made it, but everyone raves about it. And if you're looking for one, I'd consider it.
http://https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f76/thunderstruck-pumpkin-ale-ag-extract-versions-26699/

Other than that, we can all RDWHAHB! Well...when your's is done you can, till then you can just grab a nice craft beer to hold you off. Best of luck and let us know in the future what you decide you like best.

 

[Buffman]

I used to secondary every batch. Now, unless I'm dry-hopping or need to free up my primary fermentor, I've gone to primary-only before bottling. Even when I do secondary, I increase the old 1-2-3 rule to 2-4-4 (at least 2 weeks in primary, 4 in secondary, 4 in bottles). After pitching the yeast, I only take hydrometer readings at racking to secondary and bottling. Even with a low gravity beer like a blonde, you won't get off-flavors from a longer stay in the primary and, as many have said, you may have better clarity.

 

[ThreeTaps]

Thanks for all the information. It really helps.

I've actually changed up my plan. I'm going to do a Sam Adams Cherry Wheat clone first, since it requires a secondary for the cherry puree flavoring, and while that's in the secondary for 2 weeks I'll put the pumpkin spice in the primary for 3. That way, I'm really only losing 10 days of primary time for the Cherry Wheat and I'll have two more options for thanksgiving/christmas instead of only 1 (the pumpkin spice).

I figure 10 days in a primary should be good for a cherry wheat, unless you good people say elsewise.

 

[Picobrew]

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[TheMan]

I think 10 days should be fine. But you should check the gravity just to be sure. It never hurts.