Just to get an opinion...MASH TUN MADNESS!

[dutch101st]

Ok, so I have an Rubbermaid mash tun that has worked quite well in the past. However, since I have upgraded to a keggle for my brew kettle and HLT, there is a symytry (sp) that is lacking...so here is my question:

Is going with a keggle MLT the way to go and if so, why? Would you do the swap if you could?

Just getting opinions...not going to make any changes at this point...

 

[mvdilts]

Personally I'm looking at switching back from a keggle MLT because I'm finding that the MLT is not holding my temps - it drops about 10*F over an hour despite insulation. Unfortunately I don't have the funds to set up either RIMS or HERMS...I might try a heat stick before I switch back.

 

[johnnybrew]

I use sanke kegs for my HLT and a brew pot too. I also have a 10 gal cooler as an MLT. My understanding for having a sanke keg for the MLT is so you can manage the temp by direct heat via another propane burner. The key, I think, is to not scorch/burn your grains. But, I defer to those who actually have this setup.

 

[yodalegomaster]

I have never understood, why anyone would prefer a cooler over a keggle for a mash-tun. I have a shield I built to keep heat in, and all I have to do a step mash is light the burner and add some heat. I have never used a cooler and don't plan to. It might take a little more stirring but it's so much easier than adding water.

 

[sambogi76]

Thanks for this thread. I am in the same boat on this one. My setup is still primitive at this point: Keggle for a BK, cooler for a MLT, and a cheap 5 gallon pot for a HLT. But I am getting ready for some upgrades: a E-HLT keggle with electronic controls and maybe a new MLT. But I get awesome efficiencies (~80%, pretty good for batch spargeing). The only reason I want to change is the size of the of my MLT so I was looking at a insulated keggle.

 

[johnnybrew]

I have never understood, why anyone would prefer a cooler over a keggle for a mash-tun. I have a shield I built to keep heat in, and all I have to do a step mash is light the burner and add some heat. I have never used a cooler and don't plan to. It might take a little more stirring but it's so much easier than adding water.

Do you have anything special in/on the bottom to prevent scorching?

 

[sambogi76]

Also I want to change my MLT cause my cooler is a rectangle cooler, i want a round MLT so I can some day go with a HERMS some day to correct temp changes and the other benefits, now I am tired of adding boiling water to correct these changes.
Does anyone else have issues of losing temps in a insulated keggle?

 

[MacBruver]

I have never understood, why anyone would prefer a cooler over a keggle for a mash-tun. I have a shield I built to keep heat in, and all I have to do a step mash is light the burner and add some heat. I have never used a cooler and don't plan to. It might take a little more stirring but it's so much easier than adding water.

Anybody who is really serious about step mashing with a cooler uses either a RIMS or HERMS system, as opposed to infusions. It's too much of a pain in the ass to mash super thick and calculate all the infusions. Since I stick with simple single infusion mashes for all my brews... I love my cooler. I lose maybe 1 degree over 60 minutes. Try that with a keggle.

A direct-fired keggle MLT is definitely a much more simple system for step mashes though, I will give you that.

 

[addis29]

My keggle has two layers of reflectix on sides and bottom and a insulated weighted lid. It still loses temperature during the mash, working on a herms right now.

 

[NiteOwlBrewing]

If you want it to match, get a sanke. If you need to do step mashes (I've yet to feel the need), get a sanke. If you do single infusion mashes and your system works, I'd save the money/time to improve another part of your system. I went to an SS MLT that was direct fired and I'm back to my cooler. Too much of a pain to maintain temps without automation IMHO. I also had color issues direct firing with a single layer bottom.

 

[buzzkill]

for the last year I have had a keg sitting in the corner collecting dust, it was going to be my new mash tun. But my 10 gal igloo works so well I just lost intrest.

Now, when I can afford a rims,then its on.

 

[Zamial]

Well, I just made the jump from cooler to Sanke/keggle MLT. I have done 1, 13 gallon batch in it so far. I am planning to do 12-13 gallon batches so my Igloo cooler is now to small...but so far I like my keggle MLT.

This is all IMO but should serve as a decent guide:

Cooler MLT
Pros:
-holds temps like a champ
-easy to come by
-light weight

Cons:
-no way of direct fire
-made from plastic and can melt, stain and crack unexpectedly
-does not match with keggles
-The igloo 10 gallon is batch size limiting
-not really chemical friendly
-possible carcinogen source

Keggle MLT
PROS:
-can be direct fired
-will last forever
-easy to clean with chemicals as needed
-matches the rest of a keggle brewery

Cons:
-it is heavier than most coolers
-possible legality claims
-doesn't hold temps well without help
-requires some decent engineering

The above is My opinion, I am not trying to discuss them here...

My MLT has a glass lid and a false bottom I made from the cut top as seen here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/cut-keg-top-false-bottom-192413/
It also seems to loose about 10 F over 60min without direct fire. After using both I really like the Keggle MLT better than the cooler MLT but I only have 1 brew day in so far with it and it is a new finished part of my brewery so I may be favoring it slightly...lol.

Hope this helps in some way...

 

[johnnybrew]

Well, I just made the jump from cooler to Sanke/keggle MLT. I have done 1, 13 gallon batch in it so far. I am planning to do 12-13 gallon batches so my Igloo cooler is now to small...but so far I like my keggle MLT.

This is all IMO but should serve as a decent guide:

Cooler MLT
Pros:
-holds temps like a champ
-easy to come by
-light weight

Cons:
-no way of direct fire
-made from plastic and can melt, stain and crack unexpectedly
-does not match with keggles
-The igloo 10 gallon is batch size limiting
-not really chemical friendly
-possible carcinogen source

Keggle MLT
PROS:
-can be direct fired
-will last forever
-easy to clean with chemicals as needed
-matches the rest of a keggle brewery

Cons:
-it is heavier than most coolers
-possible legality claims
-doesn't hold temps well without help
-requires some decent engineering

The above is My opinion, I am not trying to discuss them here...

My MLT has a glass lid and a false bottom I made from the cut top as seen here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/cut-keg-top-false-bottom-192413/
It also seems to loose about 10 F over 60min without direct fire. After using both I really like the Keggle MLT better than the cooler MLT but I only have 1 brew day in so far with it and it is a new finished part of my brewery so I may be favoring it slightly...lol.

Hope this helps in some way...

This is helpful for me, thanks.

I use a 10 gal cooler and only have a few AG batches under my belt. I have a sanke HLT and brew kettle and am wondering if I should have just made an MLT with another sanke and got it over with (I had 4 kegs and sold two!)? Eventually, I would like to have either a HERMS or RIMS system (still trying to decide and have no rush to get there yet).

Can you tell me how you maintain your temp? Did you wrap the MLT with reflectix? Do you have a burner under the keg? If you have the burner, I assume you have to stir it often to ensure even heating (prevent scorching)? I assume stirring is done carefully to not incorporate O2? Was this easier or more difficult when compared to the cooler MLT?

Thanks!

 

[Zamial]

Can you tell me how you maintain your temp? Well, I use a glass lid that fits perfectly into the keggle opening. I also have a PoS burner that has a really low flame. I fire up the burner every 10 minutes for about 5 minutes doing 3 total cycles to end at 60 min. As I stated before I have used this system all of 1 time...lol

Did you wrap the MLT with reflectix? I have been thinking about this and it comes with its own problems like Velcro and Reflectix not being that great at being fire proof...I am still thinking about this...

Do you have a burner under the keg? already answered.

If you have the burner, I assume you have to stir it often to ensure even heating (prevent scorching)? No, I did not stir anything. The burner is REALLY not that good and with the domed FB, it leaves a huge spot for liquid to act as a buffer. I would never try to use this set up unattended...

I assume stirring is done carefully to not incorporate O2? I did not stir.


Was this easier or more difficult when compared to the cooler MLT? IMO it was NOT easier than the cooler. The cooler you can set it up and go read a paper for 60min then come back. The Keggle, I checked the temp about every 15 min and then lit the burner for 5 as described above. It was NOT a PITA but it was a bit more involved than the cooler.

 

[johnnybrew]

Can you tell me how you maintain your temp? Well, I use a glass lid that fits perfectly into the keggle opening. I also have a PoS burner that has a really low flame. I fire up the burner every 10 minutes for about 5 minutes doing 3 total cycles to end at 60 min. As I stated before I have used this system all of 1 time...lol

Etc.

Thank you very much for your thoughtful responses! Much appreciated!

 

[klyph]

The OP's sig says he's building a HERMS system, so I'd say the insulation issue is a moot point. Keggle MLT's work great in HERMS systems.

 

[Alemaker]

The OP's sig says he's building a HERMS system, so I'd say the insulation issue is a moot point. Keggle MLT's work great in HERMS systems.

Is it really moot? I have to wonder, even with a HERMS, if there's temps all over the place inside an uninsulated keggle.

 

[sambogi76]

Well, I just made the jump from cooler to Sanke/keggle MLT. I have done 1, 13 gallon batch in it so far. I am planning to do 12-13 gallon batches so my Igloo cooler is now to small...but so far I like my keggle MLT.

This is all IMO but should serve as a decent guide:

Cooler MLT
Pros:
-holds temps like a champ
-easy to come by
-light weight

Cons:
-no way of direct fire
-made from plastic and can melt, stain and crack unexpectedly
-does not match with keggles
-The igloo 10 gallon is batch size limiting
-not really chemical friendly
-possible carcinogen source

Keggle MLT
PROS:
-can be direct fired
-will last forever
-easy to clean with chemicals as needed
-matches the rest of a keggle brewery

Cons:
-it is heavier than most coolers
-possible legality claims
-doesn't hold temps well without help
-requires some decent engineering

The above is My opinion, I am not trying to discuss them here...

My MLT has a glass lid and a false bottom I made from the cut top as seen here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/cut-keg-top-false-bottom-192413/
It also seems to loose about 10 F over 60min without direct fire. After using both I really like the Keggle MLT better than the cooler MLT but I only have 1 brew day in so far with it and it is a new finished part of my brewery so I may be favoring it slightly...lol.

Hope this helps in some way...

I dont agree with your cons on using a cooler mlt.

1st. No way to direct fire no, but would work great for a rimms or herms system. would work great for this because it would be much easier to control the temps.
2nd Even though I do agree it is not as durable as keggle it is not going to melt with mashing temps.
3rd There are bigger coolers than 10 gallon ones out there. even some that are bigger than 15.5 gallons, just not round ones that would be requires to recirculate.
4th These are made of food grade plastics your not going to get chemicals or carcinogens from them, or off odors or flavors.

I am having too much success with my cooler mlt to switch right now (about 80+ efficiency) single infusion and batch spargeing. The only thing I would change is it is a pain trying to add heat via adding boiling water to adjust temps. But that is why I am looking at a herms and a round cooler mlt to fix this.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree with the pro and con list above. Switching to a mostly uninsulated vessel can be a challenge if you're used to doughing in and walking away. It's much harder to insulate a sanke tun to the same R value as a cooler and still have it be direct heatable. The typical answer to that is some kind of heat maintenance system like RIMS or HERMS. OK, yes, you can know automate to a degree and keep your hands off but we're stepping into more complexity and cost.

I'd rather pose the question as whether or not you planned on building a RIMS/HERMS with some automation anyway. If yes, the tun type doesn't matter that much.

 

[sambogi76]

I do not want to automate at all. I dont want a neat gadget, I just want to brew good beer. The expense and time would take away from that. I want a herms in the future to: 1 better control temps, 2 to recirculate to get clearer wort that I think would improve my beers. Because Im not going to automate (except my E HLT which will double for part of my herms in the future) I think a well insulated MLT would work better to better control these temps.

Would you think that a insulated MLT would be better for this application?

Im not looking for a "pretty" system, just one that works. If this will last me 100 + brew days and I have to buy another, so what if I get 100 great brews. Right?

 

[klyph]

Like I said, If you're going to build a E-HLT keggle HERMS, a sanke MLT makes more sense to me.

But I may be biased

 

[yodalegomaster]

Do you have anything special in/on the bottom to prevent scorching?


No I don't, But I have to ways to fix it, stir a whole lot or use a pump and keep it circulating. I have had only one batch that had scorching, I don't believe I had any Flavor issues with that batch. I am not adding a whole lot of heat, just enough to make my desired rest temps.

 

[dutch101st]

All great resopnses, thanks!

I personally am not looking to automate much if anything save the heating element I have in my HLT for keeping a steady temp. The plan is to heat the water with propane then maintain desired temp with a temp contoller that will monitor the wort temp as it recirculates back into the MLT.

I posed the question mostly from an asthetic look perspective...three sankes in a row certainly look good. But function over style is also important.

Just wanted to get opinions.

is in progress...nearly done.

 

[DrG]

Really, plastic!?!? Keep your plastic away from my beer! Yes, I know plastic is great stuff...but it has huge hidden dangers.

You know you are making GREAT beer. Why add to your health issues?

Lets kill our need for plastics! So, I have no idea if food grade plastic uses BPA but why risk it or the next thing they have not found wrong with plastic.

Dose (µg/kg/day) | Effects (measured in studies of mice or rats| Study Year
0.025 "Permanent changes to genital tract" 2005
0.025 "Changes in breast tissue that predispose cells to hormones and carcinogens" 2005
1 long-term adverse reproductive and carcinogenic effects 2009
2 "increased prostate weight 30%" 1997
2 "lower bodyweight, increase of anogenital distance in both genders, signs of early puberty and longer estrus." 2002
2.4 "Decline in testicular testosterone" 2004
2.5 "Breast cells predisposed to cancer" 2007
10 "Prostate cells more sensitive to hormones and cancer" 2006
10 "Decreased maternal behaviors" 2002
30 "Reversed the normal sex differences in brain structure and behavior" 2003
50 Adverse neurological effects occur in non-human primates 2008
50 Disrupts ovarian development


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A

 

[sambogi76]

Really, plastic!?!? Keep your plastic away from my beer! Yes, I know plastic is great stuff...but it has huge hidden dangers.

You know you are making GREAT beer. Why add to your health issues?

Lets kill our need for plastics! So, I have no idea if food grade plastic uses BPA but why risk it or the next thing they have not found wrong with plastic.

Dose (µg/kg/day) | Effects (measured in studies of mice or rats| Study Year
0.025 "Permanent changes to genital tract" 2005
0.025 "Changes in breast tissue that predispose cells to hormones and carcinogens" 2005
1 long-term adverse reproductive and carcinogenic effects 2009
2 "increased prostate weight 30%" 1997
2 "lower bodyweight, increase of anogenital distance in both genders, signs of early puberty and longer estrus." 2002
2.4 "Decline in testicular testosterone" 2004
2.5 "Breast cells predisposed to cancer" 2007
10 "Prostate cells more sensitive to hormones and cancer" 2006
10 "Decreased maternal behaviors" 2002
30 "Reversed the normal sex differences in brain structure and behavior" 2003
50 Adverse neurological effects occur in non-human primates 2008
50 Disrupts ovarian development


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A

So If your so worried about plastic, did you make sure your water lines are not PVC and that you dont buy your coke or water in plastic? Do you use styrofoam plates? Do you use any copper in your setup? I would be more worried about that than plastic. Copper when exposed to something acidic (like wort) can leach out. Copper in your body can cause liver damage.

 

[DrG]

Great points! We all need to be "greener". We've (humanity) has been slowly killing ourselves with trash & poisons. Time to start fixing it now...instead of when it becomes such an issue that we are falling over in the streets.

So If your so worried about plastic, did you make sure your water lines are not PVC -
*Not as far as I know...though I don't know whats inside my hot water heater.

and that you dont buy your coke or water in plastic?
* Stopped drinking HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) quite a few years ago.
* Never buy water. I have a high quality water purifier (yes the housing is plastic, we do what we can). I just went camping this weekend and took 6 1/2 gal of water in one of my carboys...made the car handle a little different...heh.

Do you use styrofoam plates? -
*Never. Also, I have some great potluck bamboo plates/bowls to take to potucks If I have to eat takeout..i bring my own plates and bags and glasses. Makes their poor eyes cross..but any college student always says "wow..cool..good idea"

Do you use any copper in your setup? I would be more worried about that than plastic. Copper when exposed to something acidic (like wort) can leach out. Copper in your body can cause liver damage.
* Scary, I know. No copper yet..I have a very simple setup with just 1 10.2 gal boil bot but have two modified kegs that I'm starting to fix up. Going stainless for all the fittings. I guess my first outside setup will be 1 burner with some bricks for gravity flow, very ghetto!

**Start a "zero-waste" group in your area..or at least awareness of the possibilities.


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[klyph]

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Will do!

 

[DocUzuki]

Has anyone tried to use one of the pre-insulated kegs? I have a rubber coated black keg available to me and I was curious if it would work without having to direct fire it.

 

[sambogi76]

sure if you have a rimms or a herms. I just dont know how much r value that is going to have, but it wouldnt matter if you had one of those systems anyway. (at least so I be told) I would test it out first if you dont, see how much heat it can retain. I would say it is not going to be able to compare with a cooler MLT though.

 

[DocUzuki]

sure if you have a rimms or a herms. I just dont know how much r value that is going to have, but it wouldnt matter if you had one of those systems anyway. (at least so I be told) I would test it out first if you dont, see how much heat it can retain. I would say it is not going to be able to compare with a cooler MLT though.

I, like the OP, want a matching setup but lack the current funds to set up a RIMS or HERMs. Oh well!