Just Moved - seeking advice on adapting my setup

[johnnybrews12]

Hey all,

I just moved into a new apartment (renting). My last apartment had easy access to a 30a 240v dryer plug. This new apartment, not so much. I have tried moving my washer dryer unit but it is jammed into a closet and is stacked. No way I'm getting it out.

I found a 3 prong outlet in my bedroom that I assume is for an air conditioning unit. After checking it out, I found that it has 2 hot legs going to 2 separate 20a breakers. Measuring across the hots I get 240v.

My system is a 15gal EBIAB with a 3500w (it actually may be 4500w but I cannot remember for sure at the moment, will have to look into it) heating element. At the old apartment, I ran a plug from the dryer outlet to a spa panel/gfi and then to my control box (4 wire configuration H-H-N-G).

What are my options here? Can I do anything with the air conditioning outlet? Am I **** outta luck? Bite the bullet and start designing a new system that uses 2 elements and 2 outlets on different 120v circuits? That would be the last thing I'd want to do because ...money. I've been racking my brain over this for the past week at this point.

 

[BeardedBrews]

You can run a GFCI off of that outlet and power a 20A (total) 220v control system. Just keep in mind that you won't have any 110v available in the controller. If the element is 3500w and everything in the controller is wired as 220v then you're probably going to be fine. If you didn't want the entire spa panel you could probably get away with a 220v rated 20a In-Line GFCI that you just splice into your existing power cord.

If you need to have 220 and 110 then it gets more complicated.

If those 2 breakers aren't ganged (linked together) that's a installation (and code) issue and could be dangerous, as one leg will remain hot if the other pops during an overload or if both breakers aren't flipped manually when working on the circuit.

This is a fantastic point that I should have mentioned in the first place, it seemed likely to me that they were ganged to code as part of the initial installation but that's a silly assumption. Better to check and be safe.

 

[IslandLizard]

I found a 3 prong outlet in my bedroom that I assume is for an air conditioning unit. After checking it out, I found that it has 2 hot legs going to 2 separate 20a breakers.

If those 2 breakers aren't ganged (linked together) that's a installation (and code) issue and could be dangerous, as one leg will remain hot if the other pops during an overload or if both breakers aren't flipped manually when working on the circuit.

Otherwise, seems @BeardedBrews has you covered.

 

[johnnybrews12]

You can run a GFCI off of that outlet and power a 20A (total) 220v control system. Just keep in mind that you won't have any 110v available in the controller. If the element is 3500w and everything in the controller is wired as 220v then you're probably going to be fine. If you didn't want the entire spa panel you could probably get away with a 220v rated 20a In-Line GFCI that you just splice into your existing power cord.

If you need to have 220 and 110 then it gets more complicated.

That is good news, thanks for the reply. I think my PID can operate at 240v (will check). However, I do have a pump in my system. It's operates at 12v DC so in my control box I used one of the hot legs along with the neutral to connect to the ac-dc converter that serves as the power brick for the pump. Would I not be able to do that with this new outlet? How do I tell if the third prong is a neutral or a ground?

If those 2 breakers aren't ganged (linked together) that's a installation (and code) issue and could be dangerous, as one leg will remain hot if the other pops during an overload or if both breakers aren't flipped manually when working on the circuit.

Otherwise, seems @BeardedBrews has you covered.

@IslandLizard - Good catch, the breakers are indeed seperate. If that's a code issue, it was a code issue when they installed those breakers and ran 2 hots to that outlet, right? Is this a safety hazard? I could maybe get my landlord to get an electrician in here and install a different double-pole breaker (or can you link two single-pole breakers).

 

[BeardedBrews]

You can check the label on the 12v power brick, most are actually 110/220v capable so you might not need to change that at all. The third prong should be ground if both the others were hot.

Regarding tying the breakers together, I believe there is an internal design limitation and that manually tying un-coupled breakers is not recommended since a single breaker would not be designed with enough force to move both arms at once. That said, this is 100% un-verified information and would be a better question for an electrician.

 

[day_trippr]

If accurate that is one hella whacky electrical installation that certainly wouldn't make code in a first world state
On the up side, an electrician can easily fix it - and if by some chance there were two romex home runs to that outlet (only slightly more whacky) you could even end up with a four pin outlet. But it'd still only be rated for 20A....

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

Good catch, the breakers are indeed seperate. If that's a code issue, it was a code issue when they installed those breakers and ran 2 hots to that outlet, right? Is this a safety hazard? I could maybe get my landlord to get an electrician in here and install a different double-pole breaker (or can you link two single-pole breakers).

It's very strange to have it wired like that. No electrician should do that, so it may be a hack job by a previous tenant, a handyman, who knows. There could be other issues with that circuit too, so it would be wise to have someone qualified to check and fix it.

I've seen 2 separate breakers, placed side by side of course, tied together. I had a QO panel with them.
As @BeardedBrews said, it depends if the breaker(s) is (are) designed to be ganged.

Here's a crazy scenario:
In one of my previous homes, before the main panel, there was a mains shut-off switch, that had buss fuses (they can't be ganged obviously). One of those fuses had blown, half the house was dead, but still operating through the oven when you turned it on, functioning as a huge rheostat. Yup, dimmed atmosphere lights.

 

[johnnybrews12]

You can check the label on the 12v power brick, most are actually 110/220v capable so you might not need to change that at all. The third prong should be ground if both the others were hot.

Regarding tying the breakers together, I believe there is an internal design limitation and that manually tying un-coupled breakers is not recommended since a single breaker would not be designed with enough force to move both arms at once. That said, this is 100% un-verified information and would be a better question for an electrician.

The 12v power brick will take 220 so that's good. As for asking an electrician, I will have my coworker ask his electrician friend. Thank you for the help!

@day_trippr I checked in the breaker panel and it looks like they are 2 1-pole breakers. I included a picture of them. I will add this to my list of questions for the my coworker's electrician friend and if it's not code I'll contact my landlord. Fingers crossed that the 2 romex home runs are there!

 

[IslandLizard]

In that pix ^, you see the hole going through the breakers' switch handles? That's where they can be ganged, a (locking) pin goes through 2 of them.

 

[johnnybrews12]

@IslandLizard I see exactly what you're talking about. I have been looking at breaker handle ties for the few minutes. Do I need to take these breakers out of the panel in order to install the tie? It's looking that way from what I've seen.

 

[day_trippr]

You don't need to remove the breakers to install a tie, though I would shut them off before installing one.

I mean, you could use a nail...

Cheers!

 

[johnnybrews12]

You don't need to remove the breakers to install a tie, though I would shut them off before installing one.

I mean, you could use a nail...

View attachment 621453

Cheers!

Haha code shmode! But in all seriousness, is there risk of the breakers jamming and not tripping at all in an overload scenario if I went with something like a nail? Or would I be pretty safe with a screw that fits pretty snug through the holes plus a nut or two?

 

[day_trippr]

Breakers with tie points are designed to work when coupled and I think any rigid tie rod would work fine, including a screw w/nut. I really don't think there's any difference in a monolithic dual pole breaker vs a coupled pair other than the former tend to have fancier tie rods...

Cheers!

 

[johnnybrews12]

Well alright, good to know, thank you @day_trippr. Also, thank you @IslandLizard and @BeardedBrews! This has been super helpful and I appreciate your time. Now I just have to search the forum for wiring diagrams of a H-H-G input to a GFI.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I would check to make sure that those two breakers supply power to ONLY that weird outlet and that the ground wire actually exists. I would not be surprised if the original installer just grabbed the hots from two nearby circuits and ran them to the outlet under the window. I've lived in rural areas where code is only known as something invented by a guy named "Morse".

As for the GFCI, you could replace those two breakers with a 20 amp GFCI double pole breaker and solve your tie-rod issue at the same time. NOTE: The one I linked is a Homeline style; you need to make sure you buy one that matches the style of the panel in your apartment, so don't just get the one that I linked to - make sure it matches the panel!

Also, if the outlet is a standard 5-15R outlet, it technically isn't rated for 20 amps OR 240V power and should be changed to a 6-20R. See the chart below:

 

[IslandLizard]

@Wizard_of_Frobozz I'm totally with you on all that. There are no coincidents. However, the OP rents an apartment, so modifications or a proper installation are going to be a far haul.
But the wiring should be checked.

Hey, I know apartment dwellers running extension cords from 2 120V outlets on separate circuits and make up their 240V where they meet and stick a GFCI and receptacle on there.

 

[johnnybrews12]

@Wizard_of_Frobozz, as @IslandLizard said I am renting this apartment. Taking apart the panel and installing a new breaker is a no-go for me unfortunately. I don’t live in a rural area - I’m right across the river from New York City (whether that’s any better in terms of electricians following code I actually have no idea). The outlet is a 6-20R, I checked the NEMA graphic. I will definitely check if the ground is actually a ground. How should I go about this? Measure the resistance between that socket of the outlet and the ground socket of a 120v outlet with a multimeter? Or maybe one of those receptacle testers would be a safer route.

@IslandLizard, I looked into doing exactly what you mentioned with bringing 2 120v outlets (2 different circuits, 20a breakers) together into a junction box and then running that to my spa panel and then to the controller (even sketched up a wiring diagram). However I thought that if I could find a way to use the existing air conditioning outlet it would be safer and easier. Is using the gfi without a neutral safer than bringing 2 outlets together? I wasn’t too sure what to do with 2 neutrals from separate 120v circuits.

 

[kh54s10]

Op - Good friends with the landlord? I don't really know about their views on brewing with electricity. May have a big objection to added moisture in the apartment. May also have an objection to wiring for 240 in a bedroom.

Near NYC? For room air conditioners, I have seen only the largest ones, able to cool 10,000 sq ft + that were wired for 240. Any thing smaller is wired for 110.

Most really do have objections to brewing near the building with propane, as does their insurance company.

I for one would not mess trying to tie the breakers together unless you are 100% certain that is acceptable. I could see a slightly loose connection twisting and preventing one or both sides from tripping.

I definitely would have it looked at by a licensed electrician....

 

[johnnybrews12]

Op - Good friends with the landlord? I don't really know about their views on brewing with electricity. May have a big objection to added moisture in the apartment. May also have an objection to wiring for 240 in a bedroom.

I’m not acquainted with my landlord. Rented the apartment through a broker. As for moisture, I have a condenser installed on my rig - see attached picture. I used it in my last apartment and it works very well.

Near NYC? For room air conditioners, I have seen only the largest ones, able to cool 10,000 sq ft + that were wired for 240. Any thing smaller is wired for 110.

I have a window air conditioning unit in my room that runs on 110v/120v. I’m not sure why, but there is most definitely a 220/240v outlet installed as well - not being used by anything. When I measured with a multimeter I got 225v.

As for brewing with propane, I have a deck. However our lease explicitly states no grills allowed on said deck and I assume that restriction extends to a propane burner. Plus, I spent a lot of time and money putting together my electric rig and would like to brew on it.

If I’m going to tie the breakers together it would only be done on brew days. Once the brew day is over, I’d remove the tie.

 

[IslandLizard]

Given all this ^ I wouldn't rattle the cage too much.
Brew in private, use the out of code socket with the unganged circuit (just double-check the wiring to it), use the condenser, and hush-hush.

 

[BeardedBrews]

I'm with island lizard on this one, I would put a bolt though the breaker arms, wire up the spa panel, disconnect anything that's wired at 110v, and brew on.

 

[johnnybrews12]

@IslandLizard and @BeardedBrews will do. I have one more question about wiring my GFCI. Do I just wire it as I had it wired earlier minus the neutral? Wiring sketch attached.

 

[doug293cz]

@IslandLizard and @BeardedBrews will do. I have one more question about wiring my GFCI. Do I just wire it as I had it wired earlier minus the neutral? Wiring sketch attached.

Yes.

Brew on

 

[IslandLizard]

@IslandLizard and @BeardedBrews will do. I have one more question about wiring my GFCI. Do I just wire it as I had it wired earlier minus the neutral? Wiring sketch attached.

Shouldn't that white pigtail connect to something like ground for the GFCI to work properly? Seems the neutral bar is just open.

 

[johnnybrews12]

Shouldn't that white pigtail connect to something like ground for the GFCI to work properly? Seems the neutral bar is just open.

After reading a lot on this (I could be wrong, I'm not an electrician so grain of salt and all that), if there is no neutral the trip coil in the gfci breaker will work based on the voltage difference between the two hots. Theoretically, the sum should be zero at all times. If that changes, voltage is going somewhere else and the gfci should trip. I plan to put some sort of test button on my brew controller that will short hot to ground or hot to hot to see if the breaker trips.

 

[IslandLizard]

I plan to put some sort of test button on my brew controller that will short hot to ground or hot to hot to see if the breaker trips.

Don't flat out short it, put a fairly high value resistor in series to ground [EDIT] (or hot) to create a small but large enough current leak that will trip the GFCI.

 

[johnnybrews12]

Don't flat out short it, put a fairly high value resistor in series to ground (or hot) to create a small but large enough current leak that will trip the GFCI.

Ok gotcha, will do. Thanks again for all your help.

 

[IslandLizard]

put a fairly high value resistor in series to ground (or hot)

Let me amend this.
Hot-to-hot is the load. There's no need, or even a way, to test an occurring parasitic leak between those 2. IOW the circuit can't distinguish there whether it is due to load or something else, it's all considered load.

It's when there is a difference in current amounts between the 2 hots the GFCI is designed to kick in. Such as from a small drain to ground.

 

[doug293cz]

After reading a lot on this (I could be wrong, I'm not an electrician so grain of salt and all that), if there is no neutral the trip coil in the gfci breaker will work based on the voltage difference between the two hots. Theoretically, the sum should be zero at all times. If that changes, voltage is going somewhere else and the gfci should trip. I plan to put some sort of test button on my brew controller that will short hot to ground or hot to hot to see if the breaker trips.

Almost correct. The GFCI monitors current, not voltage.

As mentioned by @IslandLizard, you need to leak to ground to test the GFCI. A 10K ohm resister, and switch will give you a test leakage current of 12 mA. The spec for a GFCI says it must trip at no more than 6 mA. If it doesn't trip at 12 mA it is definitely defective, and needs to be replaced.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Shouldn't that white pigtail connect to something like ground for the GFCI to work properly? Seems the neutral bar is just open.

EDITED
The pigtail can dead end at the neutral bus bar (it shouldn't be flopping around loose inside the spa panel), and the GFCI will still work properly in case of a down stream leakage condition. However, the "Test" button on the GFCI breaker itself will not work.

In the GFCI, both hots and the neutral go thru the current sensing coil. The coil does a vector sum of all three currents (current going one way is positive, and current going the other direction is negative.) If the currents don't sum to zero, that means some current is escaping somewhere, which means there is a fault, and the breaker trips. The pigtail is just the neutral connection on the source side, to maintain continuity in the neutral leg from the service panel to the load. If there is no neutral from the GFCI to the load, there doesn't need to be one from the GFCI back to the service panel.

The pigtail is also part of the test circuit of the GFCI. The test button closes a switch that connects a resistor between one of the hots and the pigtail. The connection is made in a way that the test current in the pigtail bypasses the current sensing coil, so that current creates a current imbalance thru the coil, causing the breaker to trip (if everything is working correctly.) Normally the pigtail would connect to the neutral at the neutral bus bar, as would the neutral coming from the supply circuit, and the test current would flow back thru the source neutral.

However, if there is no source neutral, then this will not work, as the test current circuit would be open (no current path back to the main panel.) In the case of no source neutral, the pigtail should be connected to the ground bus, and then the test current will be able to flow thru the ground wire back to the main panel.

Brew on