Junk Efficiency With Keg Setup - Need Help

[EinGutesBier]

On my last beer, I got what must've been about 62-63% efficiency. Not good. I'm using a three half barrel keg setup and here's the problem. I think that because of the convex bowl on the bottom of my mash tun keg, I've got a huge deadspace that's killing my efficiency. There has to be about 2 gallons from the bottom of that bowl up to the valve. And then from the valve to the fixture where my false bottom rests, it's got to be another .5-.75 gallons. Since this was professionally done by a welder, I can't really mess with the fixture's placement. Even if I did, the bowl-convex thing on the bottom would still suck up some space.

So I have two options as far as I can tell. Use my HLT and just put my false bottom in that, with its gasket, and allow it to rest directly in the bottom, which'll probably buy me about 1-1.25 gallons, maybe a little more. But I'd still have to arrange for something for that false bottom to rest on, even if it was just propped up on that dead space. I just don't know what.

I could continue the MLT, but I'd have to have something water tight and food safe to place over that convex bowl to eat up the dead space. Or...I continue to use the MLT as it is and do something stupid and drastic, like try to rubber hammer that bowl in, but I don't know how resilient the stainless steel would be.

That's all I've got, guys. Any idea on how I can improve the efficiency of my system? Everything else should be fine, at least in terms of technique, etc. I'm pretty sure my loss is due to the deadspace I've got. The only other thing that would be suspect is that I "milled" one pound of 90L by crushing it with a rolling pin. But even that shouldn't have lowered the net efficiency to what it was. Beyond that, I'm stumped.

 

[Liquidicem]

Just add a dip tube inside to reach to the bottom of the keg. You should be able to get nearly all of the liquid out of the keg.

 

[EinGutesBier]

Is there a DIY for that? Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I figured my low mashing efficiency was because the mash water wasn't entirely "on the level" with the grains being mashed...that the extra deadspace, left less water/wort exposed to the grains - if that makes sense.

 

[Liquidicem]

I think I'm with you now. Your saying that you have 2-3 gallons of space that your grains aren't touching that fills with water?

 

[EinGutesBier]

That's right. The valve is on the very lowest part of the keg. Right above where the keg is "empty" and has only the extended metal ring to sit on. Then about a half inch, three quarters of an inch above that is the fixture my false bottom is on. Below the valve is the dip I mentioned, which must suck up about at least 2 gallons or so. All said, probably 2.5-3 gallons not touching the grain. My estimate comes from dumping water into the keg tun until it was up to the false bottom and measuring it. About 3 gallons. : /

 

[Warrior]

That's right. The valve is on the very lowest part of the keg. Right above where the keg is "empty" and has only the extended metal ring to sit on. Then about a half inch, three quarters of an inch above that is the fixture my false bottom is on. Below the valve is the dip I mentioned, which must suck up about at least 2 gallons or so. All said, probably 2.5-3 gallons not touching the grain. My estimate comes from dumping water into the keg tun until it was up to the false bottom and measuring it. About 3 gallons. : /

You could thread in a easymasher set up from Schmidling. This has a bent copper tube that will get the flow towards the bottom of the dome. I've used just a tube before but it does not have the Stainless secreen that the easymasher has. It takes quite a while to run clear without the screen. I brewed a 10 gal Boh pils and was getting 1.031 pts/lb with the screen and tube set up. With out it was was only getting 1.027 pts/lb.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Sounds like you have good excuse to get a recirculating system set-up

SWMBO- Why do you need a pump and all this crap!
EinGutesBier- If I don't get this my beer will not be as good and it will cost more in the long run because I will have to buy so much more grain.

HERMS, RIMS here EinGutesBier comes :rockin:

 

[EinGutesBier]

Sounds like you have good excuse to get a recirculating system set-up

SWMBO- Why do you need a pump and all this crap!
EinGutesBier- If I don't get this my beer will not be as good and it will cost more in the long run because I will have to buy so much more grain.

HERMS, RIMS here EinGutesBier comes :rockin:

Well, that settles it. I know where my economy stimulus money is going.

Any places you recommend I look for it? Brands, etc?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

Its all opinion at that point. I like HERMS and that is what I plan on doing when I get the money together for the upgrade. You can do it for pretty cheap and easy, just a single pump for recirc and your immersion chiller as the heat exchanger in you HLT. Then again, you could go all stainless and automated with sanitary clover fittings and .....

 

[Bobby_M]

I'd like to see a picture of your false bottom setup so I can understand it better. There might be an easy and cheap solution for you.

 

[EinGutesBier]

I'd like to see a picture of your false bottom setup so I can understand it better. There might be an easy and cheap solution for you.

Well, maybe in this case, the cost effective solution would be to make a manifold to fit to the inside of my keg MLT. If anyone can recommend a good way to do that, I'd be appreciative. Just to be sure I understand the concept, you simply have a manifold that lies at the bottom of your keg, and this is connected to the opposite end of your valve, and the grain then rests directly on top of the manifold, right? Worst case scenario, I could set my false bottom right on top of that manifold. I assume there are some DIY guides I can refer to out there, right?

 

[Bobby_M]

Ok, so in reading the first couple posts in more detail, I see that your false bottom is ABOVE where the sidewall drain is. The real solution is to cut your false bottom so that it will rest on the bottom of the keg, just where the sidewalls turn into the convex bottom. Then you'll run a siphon tube from the bulkhead down through a hole in the false bottom to pick up the liquid below.

 

[EinGutesBier]

Ok, so in reading the first couple posts in more detail, I see that your false bottom is ABOVE where the sidewall drain is. The real solution is to cut your false bottom so that it will rest on the bottom of the keg, just where the sidewalls turn into the convex bottom. Then you'll run a siphon tube from the bulkhead down through a hole in the false bottom to pick up the liquid below.

Here's a picture of my setup...very basic:

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Unfortunately, my false bottom is solid with a hinge in the middle, but I did make a rubber gasket for the sides. So that wouldn't allow me to to use a siphon tube, I don't think. Luckily, the way it sets, it would sit above the valve. If I did that, what would I want to set under it for support? Or would I need anything so it didn't buckle under the weight of the wet grain? That'd probably be the easiest solution if I could figure out the logistics of the weight support.

 

[Warrior]

Here's a picture of my setup...very basic:

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Unfortunately, my false bottom is solid with a hinge in the middle, but I did make a rubber gasket for the sides. So that wouldn't allow me to to use a siphon tube, I don't think. Luckily, the way it sets, it would sit above the valve. If I did that, what would I want to set under it for support? Or would I need anything so it didn't buckle under the weight of the wet grain? That'd probably be the easiest solution if I could figure out the logistics of the weight support.

My false bottom is two sloted coppper plates that sits on top of stainless steel sheet metal that is about 2 in height on end. There are four long pcs and two shorter pcs that have a bandsaw cut half way through the 2 in width. The slots are at the same location on the steel strips. One strip has the slots facing up the other is facing down so that they fit over each other forming a grid. This supports the weight of the false bottom and you can pile quite a bit of grain on it and it will not collapse. I use the easymasher by positioning in between the grid pcs. The easymasher sells for about $30 and threads in to the coupling welded in the keg.

 

[Boar Beer]

I would consider buying a bucket of glass marbles and filling in the bottom space with them. They would be easy to clean and remove

good luck

 

[Bobby_M]

It really depends on how thick your false bottom is but you can support it in many different ways. You can use stainless screws as "standoffs" or legs that will touch the bottom. You can use a hose clamp on the siphon tube just below the false bottom that will at least support it from the center.

 

[EinGutesBier]

It really depends on how thick your false bottom is but you can support it in many different ways. You can use stainless screws as "standoffs" or legs that will touch the bottom. You can use a hose clamp on the siphon tube just below the false bottom that will at least support it from the center.

Thanks for the ideas, Bobby, and thanks to everyone else, too. Beats the heck out of beating the heck out of my MLT with a hammer. :cross:

 

[TexLaw]

I would consider buying a bucket of glass marbles and filling in the bottom space with them. They would be easy to clean and remove

good luck

Nice idea. Somebody has been reading his Aesop!


TL

 

[dougler13]

I would put a poly tube on the inside going down into the fals bottom and connect to the backside of your valve. Then put a drop down tube in the front that went a few inches lower than the bottom of your keg so when you open the valve it gives you a siphoning action and pulls out the remainder of your wort... I hope that is understandable....

 

[modenacart]

I would make sure you are calculating your efficiency right too. I like to calculate before I boil.

 

[EinGutesBier]

I would put a poly tube on the inside going down into the fals bottom and connect to the backside of your valve. Then put a drop down tube in the front that went a few inches lower than the bottom of your keg so when you open the valve it gives you a siphoning action and pulls out the remainder of your wort... I hope that is understandable....

I think I understand...though if there's a link to an article, or a diagram or a DIY, that'd be great.

 

[Warrior]

I think I understand...though if there's a link to an article, or a diagram or a DIY, that'd be great.

Check out the Schmidling easymasher. It has a good drawing showing the same concept.

http://schmidling.com/empp.htm

 

[Liquidicem]

You really need to find a way to lower the false bottom or fill in the deadspace. There is just way too much room there for water to sit without contacting the grain during your mash.

Or you could possibly compensate by using more mash water and sparge water. You would have a lot more volume to boil down but it might work? Some one with a little more experience will have to chime in on this idea.

 

[Warrior]

You really need to find a way to lower the false bottom or fill in the deadspace. There is just way too much room there for water to sit without contacting the grain during your mash.

Or you could possibly compensate by using more mash water and sparge water. You would have a lot more volume to boil down but it might work? Some one with a little more experience will have to chime in on this idea.

I do exactly what you mentioned. I compensate with extra water for the mash. When I first start the sparge I recirculate the water from the bottom until it runs clear. For 11 gals going in the primary, most regular strength beers I think I use 7 gal for the mash and 9 gal for the sparge. I'd have to check my notes at home for the water amts to be sure.

 

[EinGutesBier]

I do exactly what you mentioned. I compensate with extra water for the mash. When I first start the sparge I recirculate the water from the bottom until it runs clear. For 11 gals going in the primary, most regular strength beers I think I use 7 gal for the mash and 9 gal for the sparge. I'd have to check my notes at home for the water amts to be sure.

It may just be that simple, Warrior. I usually do 6 gallon batches, though I may up that to 7 now that I've got my 8 gallon fermenter. Now I just have to crunch the numbers on my compensation. Any idea as to how long it would take to boil that volume down to an adequate gravity? Also, do you condense the wort before doing hop additions?

 

[Warrior]

It may just be that simple, Warrior. I usually do 6 gallon batches, though I may up that to 7 now that I've got my 8 gallon fermenter. Now I just have to crunch the numbers on my compensation. Any idea as to how long it would take to boil that volume down to an adequate gravity? Also, do you condense the wort before doing hop additions?

I usually do a 90 min boil. I don't add my bittering hops until I get to 60. I think my numbers were off a little for 11 gal I think I use 8 gal mash and 9 gal sparge. The tube does help get more efficancy though. you don't leave much concentrated wort sugars in the kettle. I use the extra water to keep the mash the proper consistancy.

 

[EinGutesBier]

Oh, ok. That sounds about right. How much volume would you say you have at the beginning of the boil?

 

[Warrior]

Oh, ok. That sounds about right. How much volume would you say you have at the beginning of the boil?

This is a guess but I would say probably around 13 1/2 to 14 gals.

 

[jdoiv]

Get a short piece of bendable copper and make a diptube. Get a diameter that will fit inside the opening of your ball valve easily and just shove it in. This is what I have on my MLT and I leave less than a quart behind.

 

[Warrior]

Oh, ok. That sounds about right. How much volume would you say you have at the beginning of the boil?

Got the keg out for mashing tomorrow. It took about 2 3/4 gal to reach the copper plates. I'm doing a 5 1/2 gal Bock tomorrow. I'm figuring 13 1/2 lbs of grain to get around a 1.070 gravity at the end of the boil. 6 gal of water for the mash (3 1/4 actually mixed in the grain) and 5 1/2 gal for the sparge. I threaded the easymasher in the keg fitting also. This will syphon most of the wort out of the kettle and the screen around the easymasher should help the runnings to get clear much faster than just using a dip tube. I'll let you know the results this weekend.