Jockey Box set up/balance/foam

[Chipster27]

Here's my situation, and I've scoured the threads with no luck. I'm swimming in a virtual sea of resistance, line diameters, vols, temps, and pressures, LOL.
My set up:
Jockey box with:
50' 3/8 OD SS coil
5.5' 3/8 ID PVC tubing from keg to coil
6" 3/8" ID tubing from coil to faucet.
Faucet typically sits 18-24" above center of the keg
Keg of Coors Light 2.2 vols (?) in an ice/water bath, probably 36ish degrees
Coils in an ice/water bath.

Resistances are as follows:
Coil - 10 PSI (50'*.2)
Beer/faucet line resistance .6 PSI (6'*.11)
Faucet height 1 PSI (2"*.5)
Lines balanced to 11.6 PSI

Beer @ 36ish degrees = 8-9 pounds

What PSI should I set the regulator at? The company I bought the jockey box says that with those lines the regulator should be set at 10-15 PSI. I do that and all I seem to get is foam. Tons of it, like a full cup.

I've done the math, I think, and it just doesn't add up. Should I run smaller lines to create more resistance? But then I'l need to crank up the PSI to compensate for it and risk over carbing the keg.

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I've owned this jockey box for 10 years and it's never seemed to be dialed in.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Is the box setup from the company? With that coil and such I wouldn't worry about keeping the beer in ice. That is what the jockey box is for...

Foam comes from two major sources: turbulence or high velocity and Warming. If you have a warm spot after it is cold you'll get foam.

What is the pint fill time that you are basing your calculations?

 

[Chipster27]

Is the box setup from the company? With that coil and such I wouldn't worry about keeping the beer in ice. That is what the jockey box is for...

Originally it came set up but over the years I've replaced hoses, and probably with little regard for understanding the balance issue.

Foam comes from two major sources: turbulence or high velocity and Warming. If you have a warm spot after it is cold you'll get foam.

What is the pint fill time that you are basing your calculations?

Pint fill should be 2 oz/second. I just put 5' of 3/16 line and that has slowed down the pour, and probably some of the turbulence. I'm going to get some more 3/16 line and add some more resistance to see if that helps.

There isn't really a warm spot, maybe a couple inches as it leaves the coil and hits the shank/faucet.

 

[Chipster27]

Our 50' x 5/16" coils run at 30 PSI.

Our 120' x 3/8" (100' reduced to 20' of 1/4") run at 35-40 PSI

My first guess is you have the PSI WAY too low.

When I had 3/8 all the way through the beer shot out like a garden hose. If you're at 100/20, I'm going to go to 50/10 with the pressure turned up and see if that helps clear it up. I think the 3/8 all the way through wasn't providing enough resistance.

 

[ColdbreakBrewing]

Sorry, I deleted the above comment because I was going to go into more detail, but you quoted me too fast.

There isn't really a warm spot, maybe a couple inches as it leaves the coil and hits the shank/faucet.

Everything the beer touches from the coil on, has to be the same temperature or you will always get foam. Coils and tubing have to be covered completely.

Pics would help.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I would change your time fill time to a bit slower. Maybe 12 seconds per 16oz pint. You'll see a change in the pressure.

I use cold plates with shorter runs, so things are a little different for me, but the last piece of tubing before the faucet is a 18" run of 3/16"ID tubing. It chokes the flow down a bit and helps pour a reasonable speed.

The first time that I used my box I opened up a faucet with sanitizer hooked up and turned on the gas until I liked the pour speed. Then I hooked up a beer and checked the pour. I tweaked the pressure a bit and off I went. It worked great. I go less by the dial and more by the pour. If it is pouring great who cares. If it pours a bit slower then we all drink a bit slower.

 

[Chipster27]

Thanks all! I think I have the problem figured out. I found about 4' of spare 3/16 line so I put it on. It seems to have cut down on the foam. I also reached out to the MoreBeer, the company I bought it from and they said to run 5' of 3/16 from coil to faucet.

I've ordered it and will install then hook up a keg, completely ice the JB and see what happens. I think the problem was that I didn't have the choke tube on so there wasn't enough resistance.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Nice! Looking forward to hearing your results.

On a side note, have you tried serving a room temp keg? By room temp I mean something between 60 and 70ºf. I serve room temp (up to about 75f) kegs out of my box in hot weather with an average of 4 pints/minute. Just wondering how well the short coil works.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Also, if you haven't voted would you mind voting in my jockey box poll? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=512842

 

[Chipster27]

I think I served room temp (and warmer) years ago, but we weren't doing it at a rate of 4/min. Casual party with friends so the beer had time to cool between pours. With all the foaming issues I've been icing the kegs thinking that was the problem.

 

[JuanMoore]

Here's my situation, and I've scoured the threads with no luck. I'm swimming in a virtual sea of resistance, line diameters, vols, temps, and pressures, LOL.
My set up:
Jockey box with:
50' 3/8 OD SS coil
5.5' 3/8 ID PVC tubing from keg to coil
6" 3/8" ID tubing from coil to faucet.
Faucet typically sits 18-24" above center of the keg
Keg of Coors Light 2.2 vols (?) in an ice/water bath, probably 36ish degrees
Coils in an ice/water bath.

Resistances are as follows:
Coil - 10 PSI (50'*.2)
Beer/faucet line resistance .6 PSI (6'*.11)
Faucet height 1 PSI (2"*.5)
Lines balanced to 11.6 PSI

Beer @ 36ish degrees = 8-9 pounds

What PSI should I set the regulator at? The company I bought the jockey box says that with those lines the regulator should be set at 10-15 PSI. I do that and all I seem to get is foam. Tons of it, like a full cup.

I've done the math, I think, and it just doesn't add up. Should I run smaller lines to create more resistance? But then I'l need to crank up the PSI to compensate for it and risk over carbing the keg.

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I've owned this jockey box for 10 years and it's never seemed to be dialed in.

FWIW, BMC is all carbed to 2.7 vol.

The "math" you're using is bogus, but for a jockey box it shouldn't really matter. The beauty of a jockey box is that it's typically used for short durations like a day long party, and therefore matching the serving pressure to the carbonation level isn't critical like it is with a permanent set-up. If it pours too fast, just turn the pressure down until it doesn't. It won't be at a reduced pressure long enough to have any significant impact on the beer. A choker line like you've put on is a a good idea if it's used frequently or for longer periods though.

As for why the math is bogus, the main reason is that it ignores several basic laws of fluid dynamics. Resistances are not fixed values, they vary significantly based on fluid velocity. Since the fastest a beer can be poured without excessive foaming varies greatly depending on beer temperature and carbonation level, using fixed values for resistance is absurd.

There's only one calculator I'm aware of that doesn't ignore physics, and it can be found here:http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

The guy who created it doesn't fully understand the principals behind draught systems, but at least he got the fluid dynamics correct, unlike every other calculator/line balancing equation I've seen. What you need to do to use the calculator is determine the proper flow rate for your beers serving temp and carb level (as a pint fill time) and then input that into the calculator to determine the line length required to achieve that flow rate. The warmer or more highly carbed the beer is, the slower/gentler the pour needs to be. It used to be a downloadable excel where you could input the Mannings roughness coefficient for whatever tubing material you were using, but it appears he's taken that down and now assumes you're using entirely vinyl lines, so it won't really work for jockeybox's. I probably have the old excel file somewhere though.

 

[Chipster27]

FWIW, BMC is all carbed to 2.7 vol.

The "math" you're using is bogus, but for a jockey box it shouldn't really matter. ......

Wow :rockin: That is the most comprehensive and thorough response I've ever had! Thanks for taking the time to provide the detail. I thought my head was swimming before...

I also read the page in the link you quoted. There is a lot of detail there..and now I'm going to have to go back and redo the lines on my keezer

Thanks again! Cheers!

 

[ColdbreakBrewing]

I think I served room temp (and warmer) years ago, but we weren't doing it at a rate of 4/min. Casual party with friends so the beer had time to cool between pours. With all the foaming issues I've been icing the kegs thinking that was the problem.

We have a video comparing coil length and temperature. Kegs were at 65ºf inside our warehouse. It's promoting our jockey boxes, but it will give you a good understanding of coil length and beer temp. 99% of the jockey boxes we make have 50' coils.

https://youtu.be/d3vqdchzLxY

http://www.coldbreakbrewing.com/blogs/product-tips/18583273-jockey-box-temperature-testing

 

[Chipster27]

We have a video comparing coil length and temperature. ....99% of the jockey boxes we make have 50' coils.

I ran another test today. Coils submerged in ice/water bath. Serving temp of the beer was 35.5.
tube resistance/diameter.
50' SS @ 3/8 = 10 lbs resistance
5' vinyl @3/16 = 9 lbs resistance
6' vinyl @3/8 ID = .6 lbs resistance
18" rise = 1 pound

Beer is 2.7 vv served at 35.5 degrees, but I was basically at the end of the keg, not sure what kind of influence that has....

Couple observations/images. Regulator was set between 13/15 PSI (per MoreBeer's recomendation). There were tiny bubbles of COs in the line that ultimately converged in to a large bubble, which I believe made more foam.

At one point I did have some perfect pours, then I let it sit and it started to foam up again, possible from the consolidation of all the tiny COs bubbles in to larger pockets of COs. The release of the COs in the lines has me thinking the pressure isn't high enough to keep them "compressed" or under pressure, which is allowing them to expand.

 

[ColdbreakBrewing]

Do you have a rubber washer between the keg coupler and the beer line?

 

[Chipster27]

Yes. I have rubber washers on both ends of the beer line. One at the tap and one at the junction going in to the jockey box .

 

[ColdbreakBrewing]

Man, im not sure what to tell you. My gut says you don't have enough pressure or you have a leak somewhere. Without seeing the pour, its difficult to give advise. The keg in the pic is a commercial keg, meaning its probably at 12 PSI when it leaves the brewery. So when you set your regulator to 15, your not giving it much CO2 to get out. Go to 25-30. I wouldn't worry too much about the calculations like JuanMoore suggested. It's more about the pour speed.

Send me a video with your phone of the pour next time you hook it up. [email protected]

 

[Chipster27]

Here's another observation that may mean my dispensing pressure is too low. After each pour I have hear the ball/check valve in the tap slamming closed, it's like a "clink" noise. This leads me to believe the pressure in the JB is higher than the dispensing pressure. If they were equal or higher in the keg the ball valve would not be closing.

 

[ColdbreakBrewing]

That's normal. When the pressure is up around 25-30PSI (50' coil), the pressure wants to close the tap. So when you go to shut it off, it slams shut.

 

[richlong8020]

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