Jim Koch is not happy

[OleGoatBrewing]

Has he tasted Sam Adams lately? It's not what he made back in the day.

 

[drainbamage]

Has he tasted Sam Adams lately? It's not what he made back in the day.

Can you identify what has changed?

(No snark, I'm actually curious.)

 

[GHBWNY]

The SA commercial from a couple years ago where at the end he jumps up out of a vat of beer...? Would you drink Sam Adams after seeing that?

 

[edroberts]

I DO find it interesting that Boston Beer started running these new ads touting their independence in the last week or so in response to sales/partnerships for the likes of Boulevard and Founders. I guess it's no longer "we are the craft beer community" but rather dog eat dog from their standpoint. I guess it was just a matter of time.

 

[edroberts]

The SA commercial from a couple years ago where at the end he jumps up out of a vat of beer...? Would you drink Sam Adams after seeing that?

Didn't he also brew a batch of beer with BrewDogs by innoculating it in a beer spa with them?

 

[b-boy]

If I go to a bar/restaurant that carries mostly BMC and there's a SA available I'm fine. I will drink this and Yeungling all day and be very happy. If there's Summer Ale or Winter Ale, I'm even happier (No Cranberry Lambic please - yuck).

SA is always creating new beers. I try them all. They're not always great, but most of the craft beers I try aren't all that great either. There's a lot of mediocrity out there right now. I'm not sure why SA is the only one being called out for it.

I don't know why Jim Koch seems to be getting hammered lately. I have a lot of respect for him, his company, and the beer they produce. I give him a lot of credit for where beer is today. He's takes new brewers under his wing and provides support to the industry as a whole. Unfortunately I think he's on the cusp of becoming an 'evil corporate executive' in the public's eye. SA is starting to be viewed as more BMC than craft. I guess people don't like success.

There's a book called 'The Audacity of Hops: The History of America's Craft Beer Revolution'. Anyone interested in the history of craft beer in America should read it. Jim Koch is highlighted in a quite few chapters. It's a good read. My only complaint is that It's hard to keep up with all the names, and it tends to jump around between brewers and timelines.

 

[GHBWNY]

I guess it's no longer "we are the craft beer community" but rather dog eat dog from their standpoint. I guess it was just a matter of time.

Thirty years ago, they were the new craft kid on the block. But I wonder if wanting to become bigger and richer and more famous has moved them beyond the image of being a "craft" brewer and the consumer who once supported them? IOW, while I like the taste of some of the SA products, I philosophically choose not to support their emphasis on bigger and richer and more famous.

 

[Pyg]

I still like SA Summer.
SA OctoberFest is fine drink. Nice and malty.

I tried a 12 of the Legacy IPA, was not bad, but there is far greater IPA's out there.

I have never been much of a fan of Boston Lager,
However I find SA to be the middle ground between BMC & obscure craft beers.

I know if people come over to my pool and there is a choice between SA & Saranac, SA & Lagunitas, or SA & SN,
People tend to go with SA, they know the name.

 

[jbaysurfer]

SA is always creating new beers. I try them all. They're not always great, but most of the craft beers I try aren't all that great either. There's a lot of mediocrity out there right now. I'm not sure why SA is the only one being called out for it.

I don't know why Jim Koch seems to be getting hammered lately. I have a lot of respect for him, his company, and the beer they produce. I give him a lot of credit for where beer is today. He's takes new brewers under his wing and provides support to the industry as a whole. Unfortunately I think he's on the cusp of becoming an 'evil corporate executive' in the public's eye. SA is starting to be viewed as more BMC than craft. I guess people don't like success.

There's a book called 'The Audacity of Hops: The History of America's Craft Beer Revolution'. Anyone interested in the history of craft beer in America should read it. Jim Koch is highlighted in a quite few chapters. It's a good read. My only complaint is that It's hard to keep up with all the names, and it tends to jump around between brewers and timelines.

He's being called out for reasons you outline (ie...he's the 800lb gorilla in the craft market and holds himself out to be something special) and because the thread is about a temper tantrum he threw when he found out his beer wasn't being served in a dining establishment he was at.

You can't hold yourself out as an ambassador and elder statesman of craft beer (even his ad-campaigns are nauseously self aggrandizing IMHO), and then make mediocre beer and act childish in public like this article illustrates, all the while giving reporters impressions like:

Koch’s attitude is clear: He doesn’t give a damn. “You can’t meet the needs of every hipster bar,” he tells me from inside the tasting room at his J.P. brewery.

And not expect to get "hammered" by the very people whom you've slighted...which ironically, is the people you want to be buying your beer.

 

[beersk]

I like the word "promiscuous" that the author used to describe the current mood of the craft beer drinker. That's a very good way to put it.

WHORES! WE'RE ALL WHORES!

This description was also used in the Brewing TV episode "Snow day in Denver" by the brewer of Denver Brewing Co. and I very much agree.

Like someone else said, Jim Koch just needs to be happy he's a pioneer of a huge craft beer front and stop thinking he needs to rule the world. What's really important, Jim? Sam Adam's isn't making enough money for you? Why does a business always need to be growing? Isn't there a point where you're comfortable with where you are? And if you aren't growing, your business is still a multimillion dollar business...this isn't good enough? It always has to be more, more, more, doesn't it? I don't understand this mentality. And, yes, that was major disrespect how he made that waitstaff person cry. What a dick.

 

[Teromous]

Samuel Adams Double Bock - 2014 GABF German-Style Doppelbock or Eisbock - Gold Medal
Samuel Adams Tetravis - 2014 GABF Belgian-Style Abbey Ale - Gold Medal

I wonder how many craft beer drinkers ignored these beers because they had the name "Samuel Adams" on the label. I know a person could say that the GABF awards medals to breweries that craft beer drinkers generally don't like (Miller Lite - 2014 GABF American-Style Lager or Light Lager - Gold Medal) but we're talking Dopplebock and Abbey Ale.

People talk a lot of smack about BBC but they put out a large variety of beers, distribute a lot of sampler packs, win a lot of medals, etc... If they don't make any beer that you like that's fine. But, to me it seems like they're an easy media target because they are a large company and they have a large distribution. If it were some other small craft brewery people would start saying "yeah he was right to get mad at the guy, they should be buying local, supporting their local brewery, etc." If the bar can't sell BBC branded beers because of the stigma against them not being "crafty" enough, I can't fault them for trying to make money. But I can imagine it has become a huge headache for Jim Koch to face this stigma every day, and this just happened to be his breaking point. Honestly I give the guy kudos for standing up for his company and what he believes in, just like I give Dan Gordon kudos for giving the craft beer industry the proverbial finger by churning out all the traditional style lagers and ales he makes, and just like I give kudos to John Maier for continually producing Voodoo Doughnut beers that people continually dislike (From BeerAdvocate: 2011 - 66, 2012 - 66, 2013 -79, 2014 - 77). I like having people in the brewing industry who are passionate about what they are doing, whether or not people like it.

 

[b-boy]

Like someone else said, Jim Koch just needs to be happy he's a pioneer of a huge craft beer front and stop thinking he needs to rule the world. What's really important, Jim? Sam Adam's isn't making enough money for you? Why does a business always need to be growing? Isn't there a point where you're comfortable with where you are? And if you aren't growing, your business is still a multimillion dollar business...this isn't good enough? It always has to be more, more, more, doesn't it? I don't understand this mentality. And, yes, that was major disrespect how he made that waitstaff person cry. What a dick.

Koch is not a private owner. He has stockholders (me included) to answer to. He's not running a 3-man craft brewery. He's running a large corporation. He can't ever be satisifed. He's not allowed to be satisfied. The second a successful business man stops wanting to rule the world, he's a gonner.

SA is still one of the major gateways to craft beer for a lot of people. SA's success will continue to drive new customers toward the smaller guys, even if they think they've passed him by. This will go on even after the hipsters have moved on to some other hipper beverage (probably fermented prune juice drank out of a baby bottle).

 

[DU99]

it's a free country and people like him the helped the craft brewer industry along should realize that the market changes and competition from other brewers will affect his market share and people want something different. Major breweries across the world are having same issues..PEOPLE WANT CHANGE.

 

[hunter_le five]

(probably fermented prune juice drank out of a baby bottle).

@TxBrew, @Austin, can we get a subforum for this?

I'm unsure of where to post my fermented-prune-juice-drank-out-of-a-baby-bottle related questions.

 

[ktblunden]

'“Their beers are kind of middle of the road,” says Max Toste, co-owner of Deep Ellum, in Allston'

That is exactly how I feel about most SA beers. I've picked up a lot of their seasonal samplers and I've just felt most of them are just not interesting at all. I will always reach for Octoberfest, but that's pretty much the only one I'll consistently drink.

 

[1977Brewer]

The comment section on that article is AMAZING.

"Every craft bar is 90% IPA's, IPA's have no character or depth, all you can taste are the hops..."

Crack open a DFH 90 and tell me it's a hop bomb. Or an O'Dell IPA. Generalizations make you look uninformed.

 

[Mirilis]

Hoppy Beer is Ruining Craft Beers Reputation... LOL funny article

 

[TxBrew]

@TxBrew, @Austin, can we get a subforum for this?

I'm unsure of where to post my fermented-prune-juice-drank-out-of-a-baby-bottle related questions.

Oh sorry, we have a pineapple juice from micro bottles subforum but not enough activity on the prune juice to justify.

 

[b-boy]

Oh sorry, we have a pineapple juice from micro bottles subforum but not enough activity on the prune juice to justify.

Give it some time. It's not quite ironic enought yet.

If it takes off I want royalties...

 

[Rev2010]

Just goes to show that everyone rich inherits a feeling of entitlement. It's disgusting really.

First Jim should know that becoming a supreme powerhouse of a brewery is going to always entail people turning their backs on you. Seems human nature to want to support the underdog. So even if their beers never changed or even if new great one's came on tap I honestly believe a significant degree of craft beer drinkers would turn their backs on SA simply due to becoming large and popular. If the makers of current highly rated trendy beers such as Heady Topper, Pliny the Elder, etc became as large a brewery and didn't touch the recipe in the slightest people would still say stuff like, "It used to be great but it's different now".

Point is, this is common knowledge and happens across many fields, even bands in the music industry. Jim should know this and be happy he's reached billionaire status and stop whining that his beer isn't being served at every single pub he walks into. The pub isn't his business and the owner has every right to decide what IS and what ISN'T on tap. After having read that article I lost a ton of respect for Jim, and while I don't really drink Sam Adams even infrequently I think my attitude has changed enough toward him from his spoiled whining to simply disregard his beer entirely from now on. I don't care to support a billionaire, hugely successful, man that is a whining baby after all that he's achieved. Man needs a piece of humble pie.


Rev.

 

[Rev2010]

The comment section on that article is AMAZING.

"Every craft bar is 90% IPA's, IPA's have no character or depth, all you can taste are the hops..."

Only point I can agree with, at least here in NYC, is that it is pretty true that trendy craft brew pubs here do tend to stock way waaaay too many IPA's to the point were there literally are mostly IPA's on tap and very little of anything else. I'm not an IPA fan, but I do like bitter beers and completely understand there are those that like insanely hoppy beers. That's great! I'm happy we have this diversity I really am. I do just wish some of these pubs would diversify the taps a bit more. Sometimes I'll walk into one of these types of pubs and find 7 IPA's on tap, one Amber Ale that is hopped to near IPA status, and one Pale Ale, and that's it, literally.

Now that's not to say they don't offer many other types of beer in bottles, I'm only referring to tap. The problem with the bottles is they are usually 12oz bottles and cost $1-$2 MORE than what's on tap!!


Rev.

 

[beersk]

Koch is not a private owner. He has stockholders (me included) to answer to. He's not running a 3-man craft brewery. He's running a large corporation. He can't ever be satisifed. He's not allowed to be satisfied. The second a successful business man stops wanting to rule the world, he's a gonner.

SA is still one of the major gateways to craft beer for a lot of people. SA's success will continue to drive new customers toward the smaller guys, even if they think they've passed him by. This will go on even after the hipsters have moved on to some other hipper beverage (probably fermented prune juice drank out of a baby bottle).

Haha, nice...

Not going to be very successful for long is he acts like a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum.

 

[fuzzy2133]

I think that article has some areas that may be over exaggerated. If Koch wants SA to be competitive against what he started its time for him to get the people running the pilot system to go overboard with their ideas or any of his ideas (Imperial Boston Lager?).

Fine Koch disagrees with the other ventures that bring SA income however do not hide what products SA makes like the Macro's do. Show your diversity and hope those people will want to buy your other products.

 

[Zuljin]

SA needs to hire me because I have the solution. The next big idea.

Go out of business. People will be snapping up SA beers like, like they're going out of business. Then, and here's where it goes gold, start up anew as a bunch of micro breweries co-oping, collaborating, in the old SA brewery.

This-is-genius!

 

[RichBenn]

Sam Adams is kinda of in between Bud/Miller/Coors and great(emphasis here) microbreweries.

Back when Sam Adams and Sierra Nevada started, there was just BMC types and a couple of "craft" breweries. Not using large quantities of corn and rice like BMC beers made a big difference. People only had German, GB, and Dutch beers(for the most part) as an option, and were glad to welcome Sam Adams and Sierra Nevada to the scene.

But now, there are great microbreweries and a whole lot of homebrewers.

Drinkers of craft beer eventually gravitate to other styles (IPAs, Porters, Stouts, Sours, etc.) With the expanding market came competition. Frankly, for most of these newer styles, Sam Adams just isn't on the leading edge. If you want a malty Lager, Boston lager is as good or better as anything else, I think. But that's not what I want, and their other "craft" beers have been a big disappointment compared to the best of each genre or my own beers, IMHO.

You may think differently and that's great. But it would have to be a good sales job to convince me to spend good money in a bar for one of theirs unless it was only BMC to compete with. I'm certain that's their real problem.

 

[Calichusetts]

The saddest part of the article and general view of SA is that most can't get their best beers. If all you tasted was tetravis, cosmic mother funk, utopias, etc. No one would make any of these comments. At least they make these beers instead of buying up breweries.

 

[grrickar]

Agree with RichBenn...

If faced with the typical BMC selection at a bar I'd quaff a few Sam Adams products, but to me it has become the lowest common denominator in a world full of World Class beers. Not to disparage him for what he did - they likely weaned more than one palate off BMC for better stuff, but nothing they make knocks my socks off.

I used to think there was no greater beer than SNPA, and I still love it, but it isn't my go-to beer.

In fact, I rarely get the same beer twice. I am all about trying new things. I have a few favorites at any time, but I am more anxious to try things I haven't before. I find a brewer that has an interesting offering, and if I enjoy it generally try their other products. I dare say I've had 1/4 of SA's stuff, but nothing lit a fire under me so I moved to other stuff.

When I think about beers I admire and want to replicate, Sam Adams brews are not even on my radar.

 

[Teromous]

SA needs to hire me because I have the solution. The next big idea.

Go out of business. People will be snapping up SA beers like, like they're going out of business. Then, and here's where it goes gold, start up anew as a bunch of micro breweries co-oping, collaborating, in the old SA brewery.

This-is-genius!

They should stop producing beer so widely. They could limit it to MA. The only way you should be able to get a bottle of their beer is finding addresses in random QR codes painted as graffiti art on the sides of free trade coffee shops that only serve ancient Mayan hot chocolate with Columbian espresso shots. The bottles will be distributed during weekdays at random times, which require you to queue in line for 12 hours and take a work day off. The bottles could have a picture of Sam Adams which is hand painted with henna ink. If you are cool enough, you will already know that you can scratch off the picture of Sam Adams to reveal a secret phrase that is written in Aramaic. If it translates to "you are the chosen one" you will have the privilege of purchasing a rare variant of a Sam Adams bottle for 10x the regular price. The marketing plan for the brewery will be less focused on beer (approximately 10%) and more on selling merchandise promoting their rare beer and selling shirts letting people know that they attended these rare events (approximately 90%). If Boston Lager starts to find its way into the beer trading circles, they could come up with a new heavier ABV version called Massachusetts Lager that is only served on tap at their brew pub for two weeks out of the year. This will garner great accolades and draw beer tourists from across the globe. Then to strike when the iron is hot...they will announce that they will only sell Boston Lager from now on, and only the canned version. For years to come each newcomer to the craft beer scene will be greeted with the phrase "it was better last year." The perpetual cycle will cause craft beer neurotics to seek out old cans in search of that ancient flavor that was somehow lost years past, so that even if the beer is stale and old, they can take a picture of it for bragging rights on social media and claim that it now takes on the flavor of a finely aged English Style Barleywine.

And the name of Jim Koch will go down in the annals of time...as the greatest craft beer legend there ever was...

 

[BigPerm]

The interesting thing that is brought up the in the article is something I've seen for the last several years. Larger breweries are often passed over by beer geeks not because of putting out a bad product or by not keeping up with the creative explosion of brewing. Rather because they are "always" available. Scarcity and "new" breeds a large amount of interest now days. This is not simply limited to beer, but a lot of different industries.

You hit the nail on the head. It took forever for New Belgium to come to my state. Whenever I traveled to a neighboring state, I would go out of my way to get Fat Tire and others. Since they've come here, I've drank the core lineup a couple of times, but not nearly what I thought I might.

Craft beer is about the experience. There's too much out there to drink the same thing all the time. It's what makes it so hard to stay relevant. Theres simply always something new to experience.

SA does not make bad beer. But they did fall behind the times by not continuing to push the envelope and expand their brand. Sierra Nevada has the same problem. Stone, who I don't exactly group in the same category but they are similar in terms of ubiquity, stayed ahead of the game by constantly staying with or ahead of the pack.

SA are what they are, and they have demand and a market to satisfy that demand. They really should embrace that.

 

[Zuljin]

They should stop producing beer so widely. They could limit it to MA. The only way you should be able to get a bottle of their beer is finding addresses in random QR codes painted as graffiti art on the sides of free trade coffee shops that only serve ancient Mayan hot chocolate with Columbian espresso shots. The bottles will be distributed during weekdays at random times, which require you to queue in line for 12 hours and take a work day off. The bottles could have a picture of Sam Adams which is hand painted with henna ink. If you are cool enough, you will already know that you can scratch off the picture of Sam Adams to reveal a secret phrase that is written in Aramaic. If it translates to "you are the chosen one" you will have the privilege of purchasing a rare variant of a Sam Adams bottle for 10x the regular price. The marketing plan for the brewery will be less focused on beer (approximately 10%) and more on selling merchandise promoting their rare beer and selling shirts letting people know that they attended these rare events (approximately 90%). If Boston Lager starts to find its way into the beer trading circles, they could come up with a new heavier ABV version called Massachusetts Lager that is only served on tap at their brew pub for two weeks out of the year. This will garner great accolades and draw beer tourists from across the globe. Then to strike when the iron is hot...they will announce that they will only sell Boston Lager from now on, and only the canned version. For years to come each newcomer to the craft beer scene will be greeted with the phrase "it was better last year." The perpetual cycle will cause craft beer neurotics to seek out old cans in search of that ancient flavor that was somehow lost years past, so that even if the beer is stale and old, they can take a picture of it for bragging rights on social media and claim that it now takes on the flavor of a finely aged English Style Barleywine.

And the name of Jim Koch will go down in the annals of time...as the greatest craft beer legend there ever was...

That sounds a lot like Jester King's business model.