I've never had an infection, plz help confirm. TIA

[DVCNick]

The one closest to me is literally in an old "barn" with the doors hanging open almost year round...
You never know till you ask.
Our homebrew club meets there, and I think they would work with me if they thought it would help.

 

[IslandLizard]

Just an update, after almost a year of not brewing I took everything apart, cleaned, boiled, starsan, iodaphore, put it all together, new ingredients, new yeast, brew tasted great going into fermenter, same result, every beer tastes the same (yuk!). This time i had no visible infection (have not opened fermenter yet) on the outside, however taste is the exact same... ugh.

Sad to hear this infection is still around and so persistent. There must be "something" that was missed or overlooked.

When you thoroughly cleaned and sanitized the whole system, did you replace all the hoses?
The couplings on the hoses may need to be removed to make sure those areas are clean and sanitary.
How about pumps and chillers? Could they be the problem?

Most commercial breweries use PerAcetic Acid for sanitizer. But please be careful and read up on how to mix and use it, and how to protect yourself, eyes, skin, etc.

And remember, you can't sanitize unless it's clean first.

 

[wepeeler]

I have 2 SS Brewtech 7 gal unitanks, and I love them. I feel like they've been a breeze to clean. I do not use a CIP ball though, as I prefer to break everything down. Found this out the hard way after just running Star San through my beer lines only to take apart the picnic taps and almost puke as to what was in there. Yuck...

SO...for the Unitanks...

I dump everything out from the bottom butterfly valve into my slop sink. I've attached a hose adapter to the faucet so I can rinse thoroughly with HOT water - 125F-ish. Fill Uni with about a gallon to gallon and a half of 125F PBW. Let soak for maybe 5 min, then use a Hydroflask cleaner to clean the yeast ring off and scrub the inside of the Uni best I can. Rinse. I then disassemble every triclamp fitting and soak all attachments in 125F PBW in a cheap plastic dishpan for about 15 min. Rinse attachments with hot water. Dump PBW, and refill dishpan with diluted Star San solution and soak all attachments. Reassemble Uni. Spray inside with Star San and let it sit until I use it again. Before next use, I spray inside again with fresh Star San and dump before adding wort. Made maybe 20 batches of beer so far with no issues.

Maybe you have stubborn beerstone on your coils? After you clean off the yeast, is there a powdery white film? Sometimes it's hard to see until the coils are dry. To thoroughly clean your coils start by cleaning off what you can with PBW. Then make a solution of 1oz Star San to 1 gal of water and soak overnight. The film will basically wipe right off. If not, repeat. I had nasty beerstone and this worked wonders for me.

Lastly, how do you transfer your wort to your Uni? I use a food grade bucket from Home Depot that I clean with PBW and sanitize with Star San since I brew in the garage and ferment in the basement. Something cold side is causing this issue, and I can't think of anything else.

I wish you the best of luck finding the issue!

 

[IslandLizard]

Maybe you have stubborn beerstone on your coils? After you clean off the yeast, is there a powdery white film? Sometimes it's hard to see until the coils are dry. To thoroughly clean your coils start by cleaning off what you can with PBW. Then make a solution of 1oz Star San to 1 gal of water and soak overnight. The film will basically wipe right off. If not, repeat. I had nasty beerstone and this worked wonders for me.

You may well be onto something here:
I'm so glad you mention those coils. They can be hard to clean, while a beerstone film can hold onto bugs.

Looking (again) at those coil pix in post #1 makes me cringe.

 

[wepeeler]

Ok, I boiled and took apart ALL fittings, gaskets, etc. Boiled in brewery was for 2 hours. Then recirculated via CIP through RIMS at 200F for 2 hours. Brewed a delicious batch, fermented, bang, infected again :-/!?!?

The last 5 batches, no matter the style, all have the same 'hop bite / not great aftertaste".

Upon dumping and cleaning keg I found the yeast looked a bit pinkish, but under the sun it seemed normal (IDK). I put the fresh jar (dumped kviek straight from pouch into jar).

I also found the same white stuff on the inside lid of a keg i pulled out of the keezer to clean:

And that's mold 100%...

 

[IslandLizard]

And that's mold 100%...

What makes you so certain?
Mold needs oxygen to grow, that doesn't happen below the beer surface.

 

[wepeeler]

What makes you so certain?
Mold needs oxygen to grow, that doesn't happen below the beer surface.

The color, spores and location. The only spot that would technically be oxygen free would be underneath the lid in the keg. That ring around the gasket is exposed to O2.

 

[VikeMan]

The color, spores and location.

What is it about the color, spores and location that tells you it's definitely mold? And what kind? Also, how are you seeing spores?

 

[wepeeler]

What is it about the color, spores and location that tells you it's definitely mold? And what kind? Also, how are you seeing spores?

Maybe "colony" is a better word than spore. Circular and fuzzy. Looks like mold to me. Location is exterior where there is O2 exposure. I'd bet on that being mold, but I could be wrong.

 

[mac_1103]

Maybe "colony" is a better word than spore. Circular and fuzzy. Looks like mold to me.

The technical terms for (what I think) you are seeing are filamentous and rhizoid, and there are plenty of bacteria that exhibit these types of colony morphologies. Some of those bacteria even got their species names because they grossly look like mold.

 

[fluketamer]

i agree. the white fuzz looks more like mold to me than filamentous bacteria.

 

[hotbeer]

Since I think this seems to be going toward environmental conditions around where you brew. What is the deal with the white and dark on those boards in the background. Is that just bleaching or was there some mold/fungal something or other growing on it now or at one time?

https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/data/attach/766/766633-PXL-20230729-205129944.jpg

 

[rizziot]

That picture was taken outside, I took it out into the sunlight to make sure there was no issues with the led lighting and the camera. The boards in the background is our metal faux wood table on the deck that is peeling apart lol.

 

[rizziot]

I should say that this time there was NO growth on the outside of the fermenter a all and the yeast did not seem pink this time, same taste though. If I draw a sample now at 37F it tastes 'ok', still not good and still has a slight aftertaste. If I let it warm up a few degrees it's disgusting, like an old sock.

 

[chordwizard]

After all that cleaning and the taste still being there could it be coming from the mash/boil side with something like water chemistry etc.?

 

[rizziot]

After all that cleaning and the taste still being there could it be coming from the mash/boil side with something like water chemistry etc.?

I hear you on that thought, however it tastes fine going into the fermenter, and even a few days into fermentation, then it starts to turn and goes kaput.

 

[BrewZer]

What's your water source?

 

[hotbeer]

it tastes fine going into the fermenter, and even a few days into fermentation, then it starts to turn and goes kaput.

Is there any chance you just don't like beer? I don't particularly care of the taste of the stuff going into the fermenter. So that statement sort of made me wonder.

 

[WesBrew]

Have you tried a different fermenter? I tried a CIP with my conical and found it to be lackluster with my setup. Day before each brew, every TC fitting, every gasket, every clamp & and every valve goes into a bucket of prepared Iodopher and soaks overnight. I also prepare some of the same sanitizer for a spray bottle and coat the inside of the conical everywhere and spray down all of the flanges on the outside on brew day. I let that drip down into a dump bucket then attach all of the TC fittings. My hands are also going in the sanitizer bucket often so I don't introduce anything that way. I don't know if this is helpful but it's my process and it works.

 

[rizziot]

What's your water source?

RO

 

[rizziot]

Is there any chance you just don't like beer? I don't particularly care of the taste of the stuff going into the fermenter. So that statement sort of made me wonder.

haha,it's not the same or best tasting going into the fermenter, however in my experience and opinion, you can get a good idea of the base flavor and character of your beer prior to fermentation. Obviously a lot of change happens during the ferment, but after so many brews I feel like you can get a pretty good assumption of where it will end up.

 

[rizziot]

Have you tried a different fermenter? I tried a CIP with my conical and found it to be lackluster with my setup. Day before each brew, every TC fitting, every gasket, every clamp & and every valve goes into a bucket of prepared Iodopher and soaks overnight. I also prepare some of the same sanitizer for a spray bottle and coat the inside of the conical everywhere and spray down all of the flanges on the outside on brew day. I let that drip down into a dump bucket then attach all of the TC fittings. My hands are also going in the sanitizer bucket often so I don't introduce anything that way. I don't know if this is helpful but it's my process and it works.

I typically CIP and then scrub it down after fermentation, leaving it open to air until brew day. On brew day I give it a once over and a wipe down inside if needed and then run a starsan loop for 15 min or so, drain, seal up, and put beer in it 4-5 hours later.

I will try the overnight thing, that is something I have not done. I've got a starter going so I will let you know how it goes!

 

[rizziot]

After all that cleaning and the taste still being there could it be coming from the mash/boil side with something like water chemistry etc.?

I have thought that as well, however it gets consistently worse with age. I would think a chemistry issue would be one and done, thoughts?

 

[rizziot]

I typically CIP and then scrub it down after fermentation, leaving it open to air until brew day. On brew day I give it a once over and a wipe down inside if needed and then run a starsan loop for 15 min or so, drain, seal up, and put beer in it 4-5 hours later.

I will try the overnight thing, that is something I have not done. I've got a starter going so I will let you know how it goes!

Yes I bought a second unitank for that exact reason, same issue.

 

[rizziot]

Since I think this seems to be going toward environmental conditions around where you brew. What is the deal with the white and dark on those boards in the background. Is that just bleaching or was there some mold/fungal something or other growing on it now or at one time?

https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/data/attach/766/766633-PXL-20230729-205129944.jpg

Good eye! That is not in the brewery though, I took it outside on the deck to take a picture in full sun. The boards in the background is our awesome metal outdoor dining table that flaked off it's paint in less than 2 years.......

 

[rizziot]

So I was talking with a friend a few days ago and I randomly had the following thoughts.

I typically whirlpool around 170-180 for 15-30 min while recirculating through my exchilerator counterflow chiller (works fantastic). Once whirlpool is complete I finish chilling in the kettle down to about 65-70. Then I let the trub cone settle before pumping it off into the unitank.

About 10' away I have a dehumidifier that sometimes runs other times doesn't. Not sure if this would be a factor as in the winter it doesn't run, and I do not recall if I've even tried brewing in the winter or not since this infection started. Not with purpose, just the fact I get so frustrated brewing and dumping that I may have taken the last winter off.

I feel like this is a very long shot as I have brewed outside with the same process for years. Is it possible there are mold or yeast spores in the air from the dehumidifier that are landing in the kettle @70F while I give it 30 min to settle out?

Maybe my next brew I let the whirlpool settle at 175F for 15 min and then just run the entire thing through the chiller into the fermenter. This way nothing could land in it?

Good idea or way OTT.

I swear, the best beers i've made were from a 3 tier propane system outside and fermented in a bucket. All the brewery bling seems to mean more cleaning and more problems lol.

 

[IslandLizard]

I typically whirlpool around 170-180 for 15-30 min while recirculating through my exchilerator counterflow chiller (works fantastic).

How do you clean that Exchilerator?
Could that be your infection vector?

I bake my plate chiller in the oven for a few hours at 400F whenever I "feel" it may need it.

The old, all copper CFCs (with the convoluted copper wort channel) could be sterilized too by baking them (after blowing all the water out). Not so with the newer and homemade ones having the plastic hose mantle.

 

[rizziot]

Great points, I have thought of that though and bought another chiller, same issue on brand new one.

Funny you brought the convoluted chillers up, I have also noticed that these seem to be rearing their ugly heads again lol. I agree, and I never understood plate or convoluted, there is such a high chance for things to get stuck in there (and they do), I've always chosen smooth! The exchilerator is smooth inside, not convoluted and they do a neat exterior wrap on the water side instead of convoluting the copper. It works amazingly fast for me and is one of my favorite brewery additions. I always remember leaving my immersion chiller in the pot and watching tv for 30 min while it chilled in the early days lol.

I rinse the chiller out immediately after use with hot HLT water at 170F, then after brew day I run my cleaning loop with exchilerator wash or pbw. On brew day I always recirculate boiling wort through the unit for 10 minutes before starting the chill.

Thoughts?

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] Thoughts?

Yeah, many, but none significantly different from what has been uttered before.
Something is still being missed...

 

[rizziot]

Yeah, many, but none significantly different from what has been uttered before.
Something is still being missed...

what do you think about the dehumidifier, is that reaching too far?