it still tastes bad

[mychalg9]

Here is also a bit of interesting info I found on the Homebrewtalk Wiki page regarding Mash pH:

Palmer suggests the following ranges for Ca, Mg, SO4 and Cl in brewing water [Palmer, 2005]:

Calcium: 50 - 150 ppm
Magnesium: 10 - 30 ppm (high levels taste sour/bitter)
Sulfate: 50 - 150 ppm (accentuates hop bitterness, but high concentrations (>400) it is harsh and unpleasant)
Chloride: 0 - 2500 ppm (Excessive concentrations can lead to chlorophenol off-flavors)
The effect of the Sulfates on hop bitterness are one reason why many brewers prefer calcium chloride (CaCl) additions over gypsum (calcium sulfate, CaSO4) additions for mash acidification.

 

[MazdaMatt]

When you described your bottling-day sanitization process you said that you fill, soak and dump iodaphore solution from the bottles... but you never said anything about washing them.

Next time you are going to bottle, put a dash (1/4 tsp?) of OxyClean into each bottle and fill them all with super hot water. Let it sit for 1 hour. Dump them out, rinse them twice and scrub them with a bottle brush while full and rinse again, THEN fill them with iodaphore solution. Also, use a bottle tree so nothing floating in the wind can enter your bottle. Spray the ones that are drying on the tree with iodaphore solution as you go so they can't dry out (iodaphore only protects when wet).

Good luck.

 

[togodoug]

I was killing time at the library yesterday and picked up "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil and was reading the section on water. One passage stuck out at me, and that was something along the lines of "if the acidity of your wort is too high, it could cause off flavors such as x(not relevant), y(not relevant), and extremely bitter off-flavors (or something to that extent)." That last part really stuck out at me, as I havent seen too much mention of it on the forums here. The last 2 AG beers I've made have had very bitter flavors. I'm not sure if this pertains your situation, OP, but I thought I would bring it up.

Another issue that I personally need to address is the possibility of DMS, because I have had the lid partially on my kettle for at least part of my last two boils. I dont know if this has an effect on extract kits, but since I am doing AG it is certainly something I need to fix on my next beer.

I brew with the lid on as much as possible to retain heat. Never thought of DMS. But from what I read the off taste is not DMS. How great would that be if this is the issue? It's a sour / bitter , not corn or cabbage taste.

 

[mychalg9]

I am also getting a sour/bitter taste, and I also think it is unlikely to be DMS in my situation, but I think if it is something as simple as keeping the lid off, I will try it next time I brew. I dont know if DMS is a factor if you are extract brewing (or if it is, how much of a factor is it?), but since I am doing All Grain I was worried about it after my first batch because not only did I have the lid on for part of the boil, but I also didnt have a wort chiller and it took a long time to cool. The second batch I used a wort chiller but still had the lid on for part of the boil, so this next time I will try no lid throughout the boil. If that still fails it may be the water I am using, but this last batch I also tried store bought gallons of drinking water. Are those safe enough to use? Could I be getting acidity in the wort due to the water? Or doing something wrong when mashing and throwing the balance way off?

 

[togodoug]

AIR in the siphon line at bottling. How would this effecet outcome/ taste? How to eliminate it?

 

[Pommy]

wouldnt do much tbh. how does the air get into the siphon? That wont be the problem causing the off flavours.

 

[Ogri]

wouldnt do much tbh. how does the air get into the siphon? That wont be the problem causing the off flavours.

Unless you've got a leak in your syphoning equipment somewhere between primary and secondary/bottling, the bubbles you are seeing come down the bottling tube would be CO2, wouldn't they??

 

[togodoug]

I use an auto siphon which is lke a two foot long hard plastic tube in a sleve. The hard plastic tube has a curve at the end. At the curve I attach tubing. Its at this joint where air comes in. I have it jammed on aboiut 3 inches worth, but still a small stream of air bubbles is coming in.
But from what you both are saying, this is not my problem.

 

[Ogri]

Its at this joint where air comes in. I have it jammed on aboiut 3 inches worth, but still a small stream of air bubbles is coming in.

Well, that seems to be a leak, somewhere between primary and bottling/secondary then, doesn't it? Is there any way you could get that fully sealed/airtight and then strike that variable off your checklist for possible causes of your flavour problem?

My bottling wand is attached to a tube that is connected to the spigot on my primary. I could see bubbles coming down through the spigot into the tubing, so I knew they weren't originating at the connection point, therefore I assumed these were just CO2 bubbles and that this might be what you were seeing. From your description I'd have to say that's not the case.

 

[BOBrob]

A small screw camp over the tubing on your auto siphon connection will seal it. There should be little gas left in the brew, clear with a slight carbonation started running down the tube. Cheers

 

[stratslinger]

Another tip, or at least an observation, on siphon use:

I've found that if the container I'm siphoning into (secondary, keg, etc) is too far below the container I'm siphoning out of, I get some really fine bubbles in my siphon and racking tube. But, if I lift up the container I'm siphoning into, those bubbles disappear. For instance, if I put my fermenter on a work table and my keg directly on the floor, I can guarantee that I'll have bubbles in my siphon. But if I stand the keg on an upside-down 5 gallon bucket on the floor (or leave it where it is and move the fermenter to said 5 gallon bucket instead of the table top), the bubbles will cease.

 

[Aschecte]

Another tip, or at least an observation, on siphon use:

I've found that if the container I'm siphoning into (secondary, keg, etc) is too far below the container I'm siphoning out of, I get some really fine bubbles in my siphon and racking tube. But, if I lift up the container I'm siphoning into, those bubbles disappear. For instance, if I put my fermenter on a work table and my keg directly on the floor, I can guarantee that I'll have bubbles in my siphon. But if I stand the keg on an upside-down 5 gallon bucket on the floor (or leave it where it is and move the fermenter to said 5 gallon bucket instead of the table top), the bubbles will cease.

I've expierenced this too. What causes this ? I would think if the siphon is in the beer and the tubing is tight on the racking tubing no air should be infusing.... unless the seals are not good on the auto-siphon and in is coming in through the rubber gasket on the plunger or the tubing is ot tight... I just don't know why this happens.

 

[BOBrob]

Gravity. A siphon work because of gravity, but air will fill the void between the upper and lower level; or try to and you get little bubbles. Look at a waterfalls, its a giant water bubble. Cheers

 

[togodoug]

Just to recap.
I brew several batches with the same off / bitter/ astringent after taste. The only batch that was a great pale ale, which went to tasting similar to the others after 10 days in the bottle. Then I brewed a batch of an IPA that was good. Among the many suggestions was to refrigerate what was left of the great-batch-gone-bad to see if it would "come back". I did and it did.
QUESTIONS.
1 Why did the great batch that had gone off get better after a few weeks in the fridg.?
2What is "Extract twang", could that be what I have and is there a cure without going all grain?
3 I've used LME. If I use DME will that be better? That is the only ingredient common to all batches.
4 Is it just not possible to get a really good beer with extract? I think I've had some, in fact made one but as I said it turned in 10 days.
Thanks

 

[Ogri]

1 Why did the great batch that had gone off get better after a few weeks in the fridg.?

Can't be absolutely certain but one possibility might be that the longer fridge time helps the yeast drop out of suspension to a greater extent, solidify on the bottom of the bottle and you are getting less of the yeast flavour when you're drinking than before.

2What is "Extract twang", could that be what I have and is there a cure without going all grain?

Can't say as I've never experienced extract twang on any/all of the all extract brews I've done. I am of the understanding that it can be caused by extract being past its sell by date, but have seen threads with posts stating that that might not be the case, or if you add extract, boil and then scorch your brew kettle.

3 I've used LME. If I use DME will that be better? That is the only ingredient common to all batches.

Supposedly DME, if stored properly, won't be prone to flavour change with time stored in the same way LME is. But again, see above

4 Is it just not possible to get a really good beer with extract? I think I've had some, in fact made one but as I said it turned in 10 days.
Thanks

It seems there are a lot of brewers who're getting great results with extract. There has to be something with your process or environmental conditions that is hindering your progress.

Glad to hear that the extended fridge time worked a bit of magic

 

[nasmeyer]

AIR in the siphon line at bottling. How would this effecet outcome/ taste? How to eliminate it?

I have had this happen from time to time, and solved it by simply wrapping some teflon tape around the tubing where the tube meets the auto siphon. The air leak will be gone, and it can be easily removed to clean when done racking.

 

[Ogri]

Here's a thread, on a somewhat related topic, that you might glean some insight from reading;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/unhappy-extract-brewer-284266/

 

[togodoug]

I just thought I'd share an update. My last two batches, a porter and very hoppy pale ale, turned out fine. I do'nt know why; I may have inadvertantly sanatized correctly, it could be because I finally got the air out of my syphone line using a hose clamp, or maybe because I stopped covering the boil. (I made all three changes at the same time). Anyway, thanks for the help.

 

[TheSlash]

Thanks togodoug. My last 2 have been much better, I really think it is coming down to sanitation. My Starsan was so cloudy, I don't think it was working great either. Plus I started covering my chilling, I had let them sit open air before!!! ack. But a serious soak in oxy for my fermenters, proper star san usage, all added up to better beer.

Not great beer.... but getting better.

Going back to all grain shortly and will crush less and just plan for lower efficiency as I had way too much powder before. Will update.

 

[jIM_Ohio]

I would also ask how do you clean before you sanitize? With soap? Is the soap rinsed (if you fill pot or bucket with hot water, does it foam up? Is the bucket dry before you add wort?

Are you using hops bags, or adding the hops to the wort? At what part of the boil are you adding hops (list the recipe).

 

[togodoug]

I would also ask how do you clean before you sanitize? With soap? Is the soap rinsed (if you fill pot or bucket with hot water, does it foam up? Is the bucket dry before you add wort?

Are you using hops bags, or adding the hops to the wort? At what part of the boil are you adding hops (list the recipe).

I'm using a hop bag for the bittering hops. How does that matter?

 

[togodoug]

This is the situation. I've now been through this 4 or 5 times. I brew a batch and all goes well. I sample it at bottling and it tastes great, warm, flat but god taste and aroma. This time was a pale ale with mostly Cascade hops.
A week in the bottle its got a great head, good carbonation and tastes great.
Then after 20 days in the bottle it goes to crap. Slight aroma and its just off, like sour. It has a bitter, astringent taste. Like licking a tea bag. Some people say it tastes okay but it does not and just days earlier it was great, not okay.
I''m aging the bottles at about 70 degrees, maybe cooler.
So it seems all went well during brewing and bottling. It was good and went bad at about the time it should have aged to perfection.
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

 

[beerman0001]

Not going to try to read though all of this thread. So this will b questions you have already answered. Is it all grain or extract? Need to know recopies? What does you water report look like? What is your bottling procedure?

 

[Ogri]

Sorry to hear you're still having, the same, problems.

Are you dry hopping? Are the hops, you are using, nice and fresh?

The only other thing I can think of is, when you leave the bottled beer to age/condition it isn't exposed to sunlight, is it?

After all of the points raised previously in this thread, and if none of the above, it's sounding increasingly likely that you're getting some sort of infection during your bottling process.

What exactly is your process for bottling??

 

[Ogri]

When you described your bottling-day sanitization process you said that you fill, soak and dump iodaphore solution from the bottles... but you never said anything about washing them.

Next time you are going to bottle, put a dash (1/4 tsp?) of OxyClean into each bottle and fill them all with super hot water. Let it sit for 1 hour. Dump them out, rinse them twice and scrub them with a bottle brush while full and rinse again, THEN fill them with iodaphore solution. Also, use a bottle tree so nothing floating in the wind can enter your bottle. Spray the ones that are drying on the tree with iodaphore solution as you go so they can't dry out (iodaphore only protects when wet).

Good luck.

Can't see your reply to the above response.

Have you insured that the bottles are absolutely spotlessly clean BEFORE sanitizing and have you tried sanitizing with starsan, rather than iodophor?

 

[togodoug]

as far as I can tell, I sanatize well. If not, why could it be good in bottles for 3 weeks and then go bad. Why would ALL bottles be bad and not just some?

 

[togodoug]

Can't see your reply to the above response.

Have you insured that the bottles are absolutely spotlessly clean BEFORE sanitizing and have you tried sanitizing with starsan, rather than iodophor?

Bottles are very clean, cleaned with dish washing soap and water. If it was dirty bottles, why good beer in dirty bottles for 3 weeks, then ALL the rest are bad, at least a few should have been clean.

 

[togodoug]

Sorry to hear you're still having, the same, problems.

Are you dry hopping? Are the hops, you are using, nice and fresh?

The only other thing I can think of is, when you leave the bottled beer to age/condition it isn't exposed to sunlight, is it?

After all of the points raised previously in this thread, and if none of the above, it's sounding increasingly likely that you're getting some sort of infection during your bottling process.

What exactly is your process for bottling??

Beer is aged inside a cooler with a quart bottle of frozen water to keep the beer cool.
I am not dry hopipng and as far as I now the hops are fresh. I get ingredents from Midwest.s

 

[togodoug]

What exactly is your process for bottling??[/QUOTE]

I mover the wort pale to a counter about 3' high.
I use a siphon to get the wart to a transfer bucket on the floor.
I then put transfer bucket on the counter, and fill bottles on the floor using the siphon.
I cap the bottles.
To sanitize I fill each cleaned bottle with iodaphore. I wipe out all buckets with iodaphore and run the iodaphore through all the hoses and siphon first.

 

[togodoug]

Not going to try to read though all of this thread. So this will b questions you have already answered. Is it all grain or extract? Need to know recopies? What does you water report look like? What is your bottling procedure?

I've used several recepies. Why would that matter? Why would it be good for 20 days then go bad depending on the ingredients? I do not have water report but have used several different waters including rain water. This last batch was 2 gal. rain water, one gal distilled and two gals Kirkland brand bottled water.