it still tastes bad

[togodoug]

That would be awesome but not practical someday I will get to the mariana islands. I do believe it is infection but lets all look at another angle here. could we all be thinking about infection when maybe it's high levels of phenols or esters or maybe diacetyl or tannin extraction. bad taste isnt always infection could be other factors in the process effecting the outcome and if bad habits follow through beer to beer than you have consistantly bad beer.

Okay, lets assume one of those. What do I do?

 

[chezzesteak]

I have been having the same problem and I am going to change my water set up but can anybody give some insight into oxidation...like when you rack it it splash and such. I think that could also be one of my problems..and maybe some of the OPers

 

[Pommy]

I could be wrong here but Im pretty sure that unless you are intentionally aerating your beer before bottling then oxidation would take a lot longer to ruin the beer. My instinct is still saying that unless you are making a basic error in your process (which would make bad beer, not good for a short time beer) you have an infection in your equipment. Try soaking with bleach or something similar which will kill anything trying to live on your equipment, then wash it all down, sanitise as you normally would and see what happens on the next brew. Just my 2c.

 

[togodoug]

That would be awesome but not practical someday I will get to the mariana islands. I do believe it is infection but lets all look at another angle here. could we all be thinking about infection when maybe it's high levels of phenols or esters or maybe diacetyl or tannin extraction. bad taste isnt always infection could be other factors in the process effecting the outcome and if bad habits follow through beer to beer than you have consistantly bad beer.

Thanks again to all
From what I read, the taste of tannin extraction is about right. But I steep for 30 min or less and never above 165 degrees. Also I would think this would show up immediately, not hide until day 10 in the bottle.
Diacetyl is like a butter flavor I’ve read. This I don’t think is it. Also, I read the cure would be to let the beer sit longer in the fermenter. Mine is in for 3 weeks, over 21 days, so I think this is not it.
Phenols taste medicine like. That’s not it I don’t think and its bacteria caused anyway, so if it is it, we are back to sanitation anyway.
Esters is caused by high fermentation temp. Although I have fermented batches in the low 80s, I can now control the temp, and have for several batches including this last one which was good for 10 days, in the mid to upper 60s.
I’m still looking for advise. This is frustrating and I really want to make this work. I am determined, someone else may say obsessed, but that one good 10 day batch really gave me hope.

 

[Ogri]

Don't remember seeing any reference to this so far in this thread so thought I'd ask anyway. Have you actually tried cold conditioning, chilling those beers in the fridge for a week or longer?

 

[togodoug]

Don't remember seeing any reference to this so far in this thread so thought I'd ask anyway. Have you actually tried cold conditioning, chilling those beers in the fridge for a week or longer?

No. they were good from day 3 to 10 after being in low 70s and in the fridge for 3 to 24 hours depending on the bottle

 

[Ogri]

Mate, I reckon you should take a couple of bottles and shoot for at least a week in the fridge. I noticed a reasonable bit of a difference, in my inaugural nut brown ale, between 30 hours and about 80 hours in the fridge so I've got a couple in there now to see how they are after a week.

 

[togodoug]

Mate, I reckon you should take a couple of bottles and shoot for at least a week in the fridge. I noticed a reasonable bit of a difference, in my inaugural nut brown ale, between 30 hours and about 80 hours in the fridge so I've got a couple in there now to see how they are after a week.

so if its bad tasting I

 

[togodoug]

Mate, I reckon you should take a couple of bottles and shoot for at least a week in the fridge. I noticed a reasonable bit of a difference, in my inaugural nut brown ale, between 30 hours and about 80 hours in the fridge so I've got a couple in there now to see how they are after a week.

so if its bad tasting I chill a good beer gone bad and it will be good again?

 

[2brew1cup]

Never put ice directly into your wort!!

underground and under the influence

 

[mychalg9]

OP, I have had similar issues with my latest couple of batches. My extract beers had some kind of off flavor and my two all grain batches have had different off flavors, but possibly they all stem from the same "problem" in my process. Originally I thought my off flavors were from overcooking the liquid extract so I added the extract near the end of the boil instead. Then I thought it was just extract "twang", so I decided to move up to AG, using the BIAB method. After my first AG, which tasted bitter/sour, I did a lot of research and made a lot of changes to my system. I got a chiller, a swamp cooler, and got water from the store instead of using tap water. This last AG batch I did tasted good before going into the fermenter but it A)seems to have stuck at 1.025 when it should finish at ~1.012 and B)Still has the funky off flavor(s). I'm hoping when it ferments out fully that the taste will be gone, but Im not holding my breath. The first AG I did over a year ago and the taste is still there, so it doesnt age out. I get a decent Pale Ale flavor profile immediately upon sipping it, but the finish and aftertaste is really dry and bitter. I've since bought a new fermenting bucket, thinking mine may be infected, and a digital thermometer to make sure my mash temps are accurate. I also suspect that I need to aerate better than I have been, which may be a contributing cause to all 4 batches turning out bad, as well as the fact that I just pitch the dry yeast without rehydrating. This latest batch I did a 2.5 gallon Pale Ale and pitched the packet directly, so I think I should have had enough yeast (I may be wrong though), but possibly didnt aerate well enough.

You may want to look into getting new bottles to use, as well as a new fermenting bucket and hoses in case they are infected. Also maybe look into aerating your wort much better and making sure you pitch the right amount of yeast, or at least rehydrate it.

 

[arch1tect]

How hot is the wort when you pour it in the fermentor?

How do you transfer the fermented beer to be bottled/kegged?

 

[togodoug]

How hot is the wort when you pour it in the fermentor?

How do you transfer the fermented beer to be bottled/kegged?

The wort is in the 80s or 90s when transferred, then I keep cooling it until the 60s before pitching. It easier to cool the fermenter than the brew pot due to it's shape.
I transfer the beer to bottles by siphoning it into a bucket with a spigot on the bottom and just put the spigot into the bottle neck

 

[togodoug]

OP, I have had similar issues with my latest couple of batches. My extract beers had some kind of off flavor and my two all grain batches have had different off flavors, but possibly they all stem from the same "problem" in my process. Originally I thought my off flavors were from overcooking the liquid extract so I added the extract near the end of the boil instead. Then I thought it was just extract "twang", so I decided to move up to AG, using the BIAB method. After my first AG, which tasted bitter/sour, I did a lot of research and made a lot of changes to my system. I got a chiller, a swamp cooler, and got water from the store instead of using tap water. This last AG batch I did tasted good before going into the fermenter but it A)seems to have stuck at 1.025 when it should finish at ~1.012 and B)Still has the funky off flavor(s). I'm hoping when it ferments out fully that the taste will be gone, but Im not holding my breath. The first AG I did over a year ago and the taste is still there, so it doesnt age out. I get a decent Pale Ale flavor profile immediately upon sipping it, but the finish and aftertaste is really dry and bitter. I've since bought a new fermenting bucket, thinking mine may be infected, and a digital thermometer to make sure my mash temps are accurate. I also suspect that I need to aerate better than I have been, which may be a contributing cause to all 4 batches turning out bad, as well as the fact that I just pitch the dry yeast without rehydrating. This latest batch I did a 2.5 gallon Pale Ale and pitched the packet directly, so I think I should have had enough yeast (I may be wrong though), but possibly didnt aerate well enough.

You may want to look into getting new bottles to use, as well as a new fermenting bucket and hoses in case they are infected. Also maybe look into aerating your wort much better and making sure you pitch the right amount of yeast, or at least rehydrate it.

thanks. I stir like crazy for several minutes with a paddle to aerate. I'm getting a new fermeting bucket although mine has only one small scratch, and a filling wand so to by pass a spigot with the thougth it will be easier to clean than a spigot?

 

[togodoug]

Oh man, where do I start? This has got to be one of the most frustrating parts of homebrewing.


There are a few things it could be if the flavor your describing is the one I think it is. I had a persistent flavor it took years to figure out. You've already possibly ruled out the obvious ones like temperature and sanitation. But they could both still be influencing the flavor.

First question is are brewing all grain or extract?
Second-What is your sanitizer?
Third- What are you starting gravities (average)

so how did you figure it out and what was it??

 

[Ogri]

No. they were good from day 3 to 10 after being in low 70s and in the fridge for 3 to 24 hours depending on the bottle

So, what you're saying is that you've taste-tested beers that have been warm conditioning, at around 70*F, for anywhere between 3 and 10 days and they're tasting good, but you haven't tried chilling them in the fridge, to a considerably lower temp, for a week or more??

so if its bad tasting I chill a good beer gone bad and it will be good again?

Can't guarantee anything but what have you got to lose by trying???

I detected a noticeable difference in flavour, with my inaugural brew, high fermentation temp fusel bomb, nut brown ale, comparing a bottle that had been in the fridge for about 36 hours and another that had been there for close to a week. Seemed to take a little of the edge off a, possibly, yeasty bitterness and rounded out the overall flavour a wee bit.

 

[togodoug]

So, what you're saying is that you've taste-tested beers that have been warm conditioning, at around 70*F, for anywhere between 3 and 10 days and they're tasting good, but you haven't tried chilling them in the fridge, to a considerably lower temp, for a week or more??



Can't guarantee anything but what have you got to lose by trying???

I detected a noticeable difference in flavour, with my inaugural brew, high fermentation temp fusel bomb, nut brown ale, comparing a bottle that had been in the fridge for about 36 hours and another that had been there for close to a week. Seemed to take a little of the edge off a, possibly, yeasty bitterness and rounded out the overall flavour a wee bit.

I'll give it a try to salvage what is left of this batch. But it sure would be nice to have a good beer, and have it stay good.

 

[Ogri]

I'll give it a try to salvage what is left of this batch. But it sure would be nice to have a good beer, and have it stay good.

I'm with you there, mate Tell you what, though. The times I've been to Saipan and Guam, even the commercial beers I've drunk there tasted crap as soon as they warm up any after opening a bottle. The salinity and humidity of the air possibly/probably help catalyse and release oxidation type flavours. The only beer I could actually enjoy was Anchor Steam, iirc, and even then I was downing the last drop within 3-5 minutes of opening.

 

[togodoug]

I'm with you there, mate Tell you what, though. The times I've been to Saipan and Guam, even the commercial beers I've drunk there tasted crap as soon as they warm up any after opening a bottle. The salinity and humidity of the air possibly/probably help catalyse and release oxidation type flavours. The only beer I could actually enjoy was Anchor Steam, iirc, and even then I was downing the last drop within 3-5 minutes of opening.

for 10 days this was the best beer this side of Cairns. I'd love for someone in this thread to taste it. I ferment in a closed swamp cooler in mid 60s, age in a stirophome cooler with a bottle of ice at around 70 degrees.

 

[Aschecte]

The wort is in the 80s or 90s when transferred, then I keep cooling it until the 60s before pitching. It easier to cool the fermenter than the brew pot due to it's shape.
I transfer the beer to bottles by siphoning it into a bucket with a spigot on the bottom and just put the spigot into the bottle neck

ok unless you have not included all the details here...... you should not go from the spigot UNLESS you have bottle racking tube on it that extends to the bottom of the bottle. if you are truely just putting your bottle up to the spigot and filling there is no way to avoid splashing into a oxygen filled bottle and there you have it Oxidation which tastes like stale cardboard.

 

[Pommy]

ok unless you have not included all the details here...... you should not go from the spigot UNLESS you have bottle racking tube on it that extends to the bottom of the bottle. if you are truely just putting your bottle up to the spigot and filling there is no way to avoid splashing into a oxygen filled bottle and there you have it Oxidation which tastes like stale cardboard.

This would make sense but I have a friend who bottles like this (not a craft homebrewer) for his standard coopers kit, ages for two months then a month is the fridge and his beer is pretty fine for kit beet. I dont know if the extended cold aging helps with oxidised beer but that would be the first thing I would be trying. Along with thoroughly cleaning all my equipment.

 

[togodoug]

ok unless you have not included all the details here...... you should not go from the spigot UNLESS you have bottle racking tube on it that extends to the bottom of the bottle. if you are truely just putting your bottle up to the spigot and filling there is no way to avoid splashing into a oxygen filled bottle and there you have it Oxidation which tastes like stale cardboard.

That is how I've done it, no tube. But the taste is not cardboard, more bitter or sour, strong back teas or something.

 

[Aschecte]

That really sounds like tannin extraction which can either be from steeping your grains to hot or too long or from your water chemistry.

 

[togodoug]

That really sounds like tannin extraction which can either be from steeping your grains to hot or too long or from your water chemistry.

wouldn't that show up after fermentaion right at bottling?. Why would it be good at bottling and for the following 10 days? I steep at 165 deg. for 25 min.

 

[Pommy]

that certainly does sound like tannins, not wanting to insult your intelligence but you do remove the grains after steeping them? Try steeping them only up to 150F max just in case your thermometer is off. Sorry but I dont know if these are partial mash kits (need to be steeped/mashed at the correct temp) or extract plus specialty grains (no mash needed)

 

[Pommy]

wouldn't that show up after fermentaion right at bottling?. Why would it be good at bottling and for the following 10 days? I steep at 165 deg. for 25 min.

that is what i would have thought but carbonation may bring them to the fore, not had problems with tannins so not too sure, have you tasted one once its gone flat again to compare?

 

[togodoug]

that is what i would have thought but carbonation may bring them to the fore, not had problems with tannins so not too sure, have you tasted one once its gone flat again to compare?

letting it go flat has not removed the off flavor.

 

[jgln]

There is a joke here you know.......

 

[mychalg9]

I was killing time at the library yesterday and picked up "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil and was reading the section on water. One passage stuck out at me, and that was something along the lines of "if the acidity of your wort is too high, it could cause off flavors such as x(not relevant), y(not relevant), and extremely bitter off-flavors (or something to that extent)." That last part really stuck out at me, as I havent seen too much mention of it on the forums here. The last 2 AG beers I've made have had very bitter flavors. I'm not sure if this pertains your situation, OP, but I thought I would bring it up.

Another issue that I personally need to address is the possibility of DMS, because I have had the lid partially on my kettle for at least part of my last two boils. I dont know if this has an effect on extract kits, but since I am doing AG it is certainly something I need to fix on my next beer.

 

[Brewnoob1]

I would ditch the sponge. I can't remember if I saw this or read it in an article, but it said something to the effect of sanitizing isn't the same as disinfecting. Disinfecting kills virtually all micro organisms where as sanitizing kills most. The sponge, to me, is the only place in your sanitization process that raises any concerns. If you stay on top of cleaning your equipment and bottles right after use, then you shouldn't need to use a sponge. Just a little elbow grease if anything.

As for oxidation, splashing it into an oxygen filled bottle will over time oxidize your beer, but from what I've read, that should take a lot longer than 10+ days where you say it pretty much goes bad from there. So, IMHO, I'd say it's sanitization.