it still tastes bad

[JohnTheBrewist]

I see a lot of people talking about using distilled/RO water. I always thought that was a bad idea, because the disolved minerals will affect the taste and mouthfeel of the beer, and RO/DI water has no minerals at all. After a quick look, I found a couple of articles.

http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-brewing/brewing_water/minerals_brewing_water.htm

http://www.beer-brewing.com/beer-brewing/brewing_water/mineral_salt_adjustment.htm

http://www.brew-monkey.com/articles/waterarticle.php

Water chemistry is very important in brewing. That's why I recommend using RO/distilled water for extract brewers. The maker of the extract has already determined the proper water profile, and the necessary mineral content is already in the extract. By using your local tap water, you're including minerals and salts that are not intended for the recipe. In some cases this won't be noticeable, but in others it can make a big difference.

I'm an AG brewer and use deionized water and build my water profile from there. My tap water is very hard so I don't even bother with it.

 

[togodoug]

I agree. Because of boiloff, etc, you may need to purchase 6 gallons of distilled water. but I think it would be worth it if you can figure out why the bad taste. You're using quality beer kits, you'll be using quality yeast, and the only variable is the water. Bad water= bad beer. Always. Chlorine causes a "plastic" or clove taste, but there are other flavors too from water.

So here is the question. Assuming the RO water is in fact RO and done well and filtered as advertised and all, is OR better / worse or the same as distilled water. Keep in mind the distilled water could be sitting around fro months after spending a few weeks on a boat.

 

[McDingleberry]

Water chemistry is very important in brewing. That's why I recommend using RO/distilled water for extract brewers. The maker of the extract has already determined the proper water profile, and the necessary mineral content is already in the extract. By using your local tap water, you're including minerals and salts that are not intended for the recipe. In some cases this won't be noticeable, but in others it can make a big difference.

I'm an AG brewer and use deionized water and build my water profile from there. My tap water is very hard so I don't even bother with it.

I didn't realize that about extract. I always figured they used RO/DI water so the minerals wouldn't be concentrated.

 

[ASantiago]

You should be able to get Star San mailed to you. Get it. It's a great sanitizer and needs no rinsing.

Can you do bigger boils? The closer you can get to a full volume boil, the better. I'm wondering if 2 gallon boils (which are done by many) is too much of a concentration.

What are you using to prime the beer when bottling? And how much of it?

You said all malt. I take that to mean you add no additional sugars of any kind.

Does sunlight hit the beer at any time, either during fermentation or after bottling?

 

[JohnTheBrewist]

So here is the question. Assuming the RO water is in fact RO and done well and filtered as advertised and all, is OR better / worse or the same as distilled water. Keep in mind the distilled water could be sitting around fro months after spending a few weeks on a boat.

RO/Distilled/Deionized are essentially all the same, they just get there by different processes. Any minute difference in mineral removal shouldn't be noticeable in your brew.

If your worried about bacteria in the water because of it's time on the boat, then you might want to boil all of it before using. As long as it's in an airtight container,though, I wouldn't expect any problems.

 

[togodoug]

Water chemistry is very important in brewing. That's why I recommend using RO/distilled water for extract brewers. The maker of the extract has already determined the proper water profile, and the necessary mineral content is already in the extract. By using your local tap water, you're including minerals and salts that are not intended for the recipe. In some cases this won't be noticeable, but in others it can make a big difference.

I'm an AG brewer and use deionized water and build my water profile from there. My tap water is very hard so I don't even bother with it.

So here is the question. Assuming the RO water I have is in fact RO and done well and filtered as advertised and all, is OR better / worse or the same as distilled water. Keep in mind the distilled water could be sitting around fro months after spending a few weeks on a boat. The more water used in the boil, the less added later the better, rigth?
Just so you know, so far I've used LME, the kind sold in bulk, not with the hops or such added. I'm willing to give the dried a try, just haven't yet, the liquid is cheeper and comes with the kits I've used is all. (I actually hope the issue is yeast.) Thanks.

 

[JohnTheBrewist]

I didn't realize that about extract. I always figured they used RO/DI water so the minerals wouldn't be concentrated.

That wouldn't make much sense since they don't know what your water profile is like. In some parts of the country it's very hard and in others its very soft, they could never expect any consistency from their product.

 

[togodoug]

You should be able to get Star San mailed to you. Get it. It's a great sanitizer and needs no rinsing.

Can you do bigger boils? The closer you can get to a full volume boil, the better. I'm wondering if 2 gallon boils (which are done by many) is too much of a concentration.

What are you using to prime the beer when bottling? And how much of it?

You said all malt. I take that to mean you add no additional sugars of any kind.

Does sunlight hit the beer at any time, either during fermentation or after bottling?

I think I can boil up to 3 gallons, I use the electric stove which is about 15 years old. It takes about 40 minutes to get 2 gallons up to boil and I don't do a roaring boil, just a bubbeling kind of boil.
I don't add sugar untill bottling, then 5 oz. corn sugar.
No sun light at all.
I've ordered iodophor to sanitize

 

[McDingleberry]

That wouldn't make much sense since they don't know what your water profile is like. In some parts of the country it's very hard and in others its very soft, they could never expect any consistency from their product.

Yeah, that makes sense. I actually have a RO/DI filter setup that I used for a saltwater fish tank. Looks like I might get some new filter media for it and hook it back up.

 

[JohnTheBrewist]

The more water used in the boil, the less added later the better, rigth?
Just so you know, so far I've used LME, the kind sold in bulk, not with the hops or such added. I'm willing to give the dried a try, just haven't yet, the liquid is cheeper and comes with the kits I've used is all. (I actually hope the issue is yeast.) Thanks.

I think we may be confusing you. When I said "If your worried about bacteria in the water because of it's time on the boat, then you might want to boil all of it before using." I simply meant boil just the water to kill any bacteria. You could also boil all of it with your extract, but then you'd probably want to have a chiller.

Don't worry about the LME vs DME thing. That's not the problem.

 

[togodoug]

I think we may be confusing you. When I said "If your worried about bacteria in the water because of it's time on the boat, then you might want to boil all of it before using." I simply meant boil just the water to kill any bacteria. You could also boil all of it with your extract, but then you'd probably want to have a chiller.

Don't worry about the LME vs DME thing. That's not the problem.

But if the boil itself is bigger, say 3 gallons instead of t2 for a 5 gallon batch, is that better for hop utilization / taste?

 

[Brasco20]

It is, but forget about that for now. Work on the main parts for now, and mess with the little stuff later, after your making good beer. As for your question about using dry yeast, i have pitched dry yeast without rehydrating and ended up with great beer.

 

[ASantiago]

The size of the boil is important. It isn't a minor detail. If you can do anything about that you'll have a better chance at making better beer.

You mentioned not being able to do strong boils. That could be a big factor in your problem. A good boil does a lot of things for a beer, from the breaking up of proteins to the better utilization and solubility of the hops. Maybe your beer is not fully cooked?

If you cannot do a bigger boil, at least try to do a stronger boil. Get a larger pot that can handle more activity so it doesn't boil over easily.

 

[joetothemo]

Your takeaways from this should be:
Use good, quality water (preboiled)
Use the proper amount of quality yeast (rehydrated)

I'd start there and limit the impact if those variables.

Like Yooper said, "beer is 90% water"
... And I'll add: without the proper amount of good, quality yeast.... It's not beer.

 

[togodoug]

Your takeaways from this should be:
Use good, quality water (preboiled)
Use the proper amount of quality yeast (rehydrated)

I'd start there and limit the impact if those variables.

Like Yooper said, "beer is 90% water"
... And I'll add: without the proper amount of good, quality yeast.... It's not beer.

Thanks to you and others for all the advise. Just one more thing, as to yeast. IF the issue is poor quality or not enough yeast, what will the beer look like and taste like?

 

[Wakadaka]

You can search around for flavors from underpitching.

I have used muntons yeast twice, once in my first batch and once again in an IPA that is still in primary. I have heard nothing but bad things about it, but its the only dry yeast my LHBS (more of a kitchen supply store) has dry.

I don't know as much as a lot of other people on here, but you seem to think its the yeast, and I do as well. I would change that first, before you worry about anything else.

My first batch with muntons was an amber ale, that just has a strange bitterness, that i can play off as over bittered from the hops, but its not that. Its hard to describe, but i think its the same flavor. Is it more of an aftertaste type of thing?

If I were you I would brew a couple batches that are going to be quick and simple so you can figure out what it is before diving into something bigger. Something like a wheat, using a liquid yeast if available for you. I know everyone says to make starters, but I have yet too, and none of my other batches with White Labs or wyeast have had the same flavor.

IF that isn't it, but I think it might be, you might try a basic partial mash brew. Or even a small batch all grain. It could be that your extract isn't fresh enough.


Once again, I am not as experienced as many of the other posters, and they are the ones I go to for help, BUT, I think that the underlying problem is something more basic than your water, boil size, sanitation processes, etc.

Also I more clear description of the taste might help. Its probably something difficult to pinpoint, but is the beer drinkable at all?

 

[Wakadaka]

Thanks to you and others for all the advise. Just one more thing, as to yeast. IF the issue is poor quality or not enough yeast, what will the beer look like and taste like?

My batch with muntons was very hazy (probably not from the yeast), very little aroma (again not the yeast), a decent taste, bitter up front, but overly and stranely bitter at the end, a strange bite sort of that goes pretty well with tobacco, but when you are just drinking the beer it isn't something I would describe as pleasant.

Also another thing about it, that I have only found from that batch, is it gives me a very very full feeling in my stomach for about 25 minutes after I drink it, but only sometimes. A friend has commented on that too. It is just an amber ale so its not that heavy, and I have drank a lot of it pretty quickly and haven't had the effect again. I think it might just be my stomachs reaction to yeast, but I don't know.


Sorry if a lot of that is irrelevant, but if thats what yours is like, then it might help out

 

[togodoug]

You can search around for flavors from underpitching.

I have used muntons yeast twice, once in my first batch and once again in an IPA that is still in primary. I have heard nothing but bad things about it, but its the only dry yeast my LHBS (more of a kitchen supply store) has dry.

I don't know as much as a lot of other people on here, but you seem to think its the yeast, and I do as well. I would change that first, before you worry about anything else.

My first batch with muntons was an amber ale, that just has a strange bitterness, that i can play off as over bittered from the hops, but its not that. Its hard to describe, but i think its the same flavor. Is it more of an aftertaste type of thing?
If I were you I would brew a couple batches that are going to be quick and simple so you can figure out what it is before diving into something bigger. Something like a wheat, using a liquid yeast if available for you. I know everyone says to make starters, but I have yet too, and none of my other batches with White Labs or wyeast have had the same flavor.

IF that isn't it, but I think it might be, you might try a basic partial mash brew. Or even a small batch all grain. It could be that your extract isn't fresh enough.


Once again, I am not as experienced as many of the other posters, and they are the ones I go to for help, BUT, I think that the underlying problem is something more basic than your water, boil size, sanitation processes, etc.

Also I more clear description of the taste might help. Its probably something difficult to pinpoint, but is the beer drinkable at all?

Thanks. Its a very hard taste to discribe, and in some batches its not as bad as some. One I thought was almost good, definately drinkable but there was a trace. Others I thought were just bad, some people thought were fine or at least drinkable. But every batch, every recipe seems to taste the same and be very cloudy, the latter comment is an observation for diognosic sake, if it looks like mud but tastes good, I can live with that.
Liquid yeast will not survive the trip I don't think.

 

[joetothemo]

Have you done any searches on "extract twang" to see if that fits the bill? I still think your yeast and water can help you, but check it out and how to minimize it.

 

[Flywheel]

Maybe I missed it reading the entire thread...so sorry if I'm repeating anyone.

The OP says he steeps his grains at 165, I always thought that at higher temps than 160 you get astringent off flavors. Also, you can get the astringent off flavors by squeezing you grains after they have been steeped.

 

[joetothemo]

Maybe I missed it reading the entire thread...so sorry if I'm repeating anyone.

The OP says he steeps his grains at 165, I always thought that at higher temps than 160 you get astringent off flavors. Also, you can get the astringent off flavors by squeezing you grains after they have been steeped.

Yes. This was an issue for me in my first few batches. 165 should be within range, but 155 would be better.

 

[Flywheel]

Yes. This was an issue for me in my first few batches. 165 should be within range, but 155 would be better.

I have always steeped at 150, (160 max), never had an issue with astringency. Just thought I throw that out there.

 

[joetothemo]

I have always steeped at 150, (160 max), never had an issue with astringency. Just thought I throw that out there.

My LHBS recommends this for steeping: "Submerge the grain socks (they will look like beanbags) under the cold water and turn on the heat. Stirring occasionally, raise the heat to 180 degrees F." <~~~~~~~~~~~~~(!!!!!)

Needless to say, I ignored that part of my instructions. But it took me a few batches to realize 160f was the high end of my tolerance.

 

[togodoug]

Maybe I missed it reading the entire thread...so sorry if I'm repeating anyone.

The OP says he steeps his grains at 165, I always thought that at higher temps than 160 you get astringent off flavors. Also, you can get the astringent off flavors by squeezing you grains after they have been steeped.

Would you also recommend steeeping for less than the recommended 30 minutes?

 

[togodoug]

My batch with muntons was very hazy (probably not from the yeast), very little aroma (again not the yeast), a decent taste, bitter up front, but overly and stranely bitter at the end, a strange bite sort of that goes pretty well with tobacco, but when you are just drinking the beer it isn't something I would describe as pleasant.

Also another thing about it, that I have only found from that batch, is it gives me a very very full feeling in my stomach for about 25 minutes after I drink it, but only sometimes. A friend has commented on that too. It is just an amber ale so its not that heavy, and I have drank a lot of it pretty quickly and haven't had the effect again. I think it might just be my stomachs reaction to yeast, but I don't know.


Sorry if a lot of that is irrelevant, but if thats what yours is like, then it might help out

that may be it.

 

[Flywheel]

Would you also recommend steeeping for less than the recommended 30 minutes?

I steep at 155 for 30 minutes (give or take 5 degrees and give or take 5 minutes). The high temp is what can get astringent flavors. But since you were only at 165, I'd only look at steeping temps as a part of what could've gone wrong.

 

[togodoug]

I bottled the batch a week ago. Used a different yeast. It still has some of that same off flavor, not as strong as the last two batches.
BUT I tasted it as I was bottling, poured off a glass and drank it flat after an hour or so in the fridge. After a week in the bottle it taste worse, more of the sour taste. What is the problem???

 

[XXguy]

You shouldn't judge a beer after just 1 week of conditioning. Let the beer sit, at 70 degrees for another 2-3 weeks, and then chill it (if you really can't wait - at least 48 hours). If you chilll it down for 1 or 2 weeks in the fridge, you should have a real good idea what your beer SHOULD taste like.

There's all kinds of funky flavors you're going to taste when a beer is fermenting, and bottling the beer creates a mini-fermentation inside the bottle - with no place for any of the funky flavors or odors to escape.

 

[togodoug]

You shouldn't judge a beer after just 1 week of conditioning. Let the beer sit, at 70 degrees for another 2-3 weeks, and then chill it (if you really can't wait - at least 48 hours). If you chilll it down for 1 or 2 weeks in the fridge, you should have a real good idea what your beer SHOULD taste like.

There's all kinds of funky flavors you're going to taste when a beer is fermenting, and bottling the beer creates a mini-fermentation inside the bottle - with no place for any of the funky flavors or odors to escape.

But why, would it taste better at bottling than a week later?

 

[XXguy]

For emphasis...

There's all kinds of funky flavors you're going to taste when a beer is fermenting, and bottling the beer creates a mini-fermentation inside the bottle - with no place for any of the funky flavors or odors to escape.

Adding priming sugar re-starts fermentation by giving the remaining yeast something to chew on. By capping the bottles, you keep all the CO2 trapped inside the bottle - eventually working its way down into solution inside the bottle. However, you need to allow the yeast time to go through the mini-fermentation, and then allow the yeast time to clean up all the byproducts of fermentation.

Try looking here if video works better for you.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/blogs/revvy/159-patience-bottle-conditioning.html