Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[day_trippr]

I'd be surprised if huge operations like Treehouse used pre-blended gas for long line dispensing. It's cheaper to buy straight gas and use a blender.

But that's if it's actually required. One can dispense over huge distances using straight CO2 by using the proper ID tubing for the home run with a tuned choker...

Cheers!

 

[leesmith]

I find the beers on tap taste a bit different, more bright. The carbonation seems different than the cans too. I was fortunate enough to get a pint of Juice machine a few weeks ago and it almost seemed to be on nitrogen it was that silky smooth. I haven’t tried the can, so, nothing to compare it to, but for others I have noticed the tap beer was a tad better. Also, I have had Julius aged for 4-5 months and still tastes great, a little less pop than a fresh can but still a great beer even for that old.

I’ve had mediocre versions of both draft and cans.

I would admit the first time I had Green (on tap) it astonished me how soft it was...like you were describing. Although the flavors were all out of whack....at least to me.

The second time (months later and again on tap) everything was more balanced and in synch. But the surprising softness wasn’t as prominent as the first pour months earlier.

My last Galaxy beer surprised me when it resembled that softness like that pour of Green. And Curiosity 65 on tap reminded me of it also.

BUT I admit that the finish on mine was a tad thin tasting....although I’m gonna chalk that up to gravity...5% plus I think the post boil ph adjustment to 5.0 wasn’t needed and suspect that had something to do with the finish.

 

[elgee]

Perhaps one of these days we will possibly get someone who works or used to work at TH to finally clue us into their brewing methods and yeast blend.

 

[lowtones84]

What would account for that spice/pepper note in the draft beer? Serving too early?

I think that’s part of Nate’s house character for his hoppy beers...it’s intended.

My observation of that character isn’t meant as a negative.

I wouldn't say too early, and I don't mind that spice note either. I'm talking about cans more than draft, as we were only allowed two draft pours per person while we were there, and I used the opportunity to drink stuff I couldn't get in cans that day. As far as carbonation, of course it will always feel different draft vs. container conditioned. Unless they're carbing/conditioning on yeast in kegs, I suppose.

I'm just saying that in my humble opinion, some of the cans can be extremely young and develop better complexity and are still just as intense a couple weeks down the line.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I recommend letting your TH beers sit for a couple weeks before consuming if they're super fresh. I live about 3 hours away and bought like $250 of beer on my trip (whoops). The first 2-3 beers I had about five to seven days after we got back. They all had that spicy, bready thing going on and all seemed kind of a different leaf of the same tree to me, so to speak.

About 10-14 days in they started to take on lives of their own. I know they say drink fresh, but they seem to be packaging VERY fresh, so just a bit of time in the cans actually makes them better in my opinion. They were still great 4-6 weeks out.

+1 on the Super Sap, or even regular sap. I agree it's like a marriage of oldschool and newschool IPA.

My palate has similar sentiments on this. I love Tree House beers fresh ... BUT ... after a week or two is when they really shine for me.

 

[RTE]

One of the conicals has the yeast that we isolated from a HF growler. I'm still not 100% sure that what we isolated was there Ale Yeast, 90% sure but there is still a little doubt. It wasn't isolated directly from a growler but from a starter I grew which means that if there was something else in there it could have taken over when I propped it. It was the only sacc yeast though... I believe I've identified the yeast that I have on my hands but again I need to do a little more research. Good thing is I was just in Greensboro and grabbed some more growlers and some canned Works of Love Earl Grey (which is an absolutely insane 3.7% beer BTW). Gonna prop some more yeast up from these and see what I get. See if the yeast acts the same in the starter. If what we isolated is what I think it is there is no way it is on anyone's radar.

Couchsending, Did you ever share an update on the beer you fermented with the yeast from the HF growler? I looked but couldn't find it. Do you think it's WLP510?

 

[couchsending]

Couchsending, Did you ever share an update on the beer you fermented with the yeast from the HF growler? I looked but couldn't find it. Do you think it's WLP510?

I’m pretty sure HF uses something close to what Conan/1968 is. I think the yeast that gets harvested from cans of Alchemist is the stuff that doesn’t flocc. The yeast HF uses floccs like a rock but it attenuates more than 1968 and isn’t weird in the upper 60s and doesn’t ferment well below 66. It’s probably some derivative of the yeast Noonan brought back from England. It acts nothing like 1318 that’s for sure.

 

[NJGeorge]

I still don’t think TH is using wb in the start of fermentation, that is if they even are using it at all.

 

[RTE]

I’m pretty sure HF uses something close to what Conan/1968 is. I think the yeast that gets harvested from cans of Alchemist is the stuff that doesn’t flocc. The yeast HF uses floccs like a rock but it attenuates more than 1968 and isn’t weird in the upper 60s and doesn’t ferment well below 66. It’s probably some derivative of the yeast Noonan brought back from England. It acts nothing like 1318 that’s for sure.

Very interesting info. Thank you. And how did the batch from the dregs workout? Does it come out okay or is it weird like when using TH dregs? I'm trying to decide if it's worthwhile to grow up a starter from some HF dregs, specifically from one the ales.

 

[couchsending]

Was fine, attenuated and no off flavors.

If you’re gonna harvest I’d suggest something low ABV. I just grabbed some Walden which at 4% I would think would be towards the beginning of the yeast cyle and should be pretty healthy for a harvest.

 

[beervoid]

I’m pretty sure HF uses something close to what Conan/1968 is. I think the yeast that gets harvested from cans of Alchemist is the stuff that doesn’t flocc. The yeast HF uses floccs like a rock but it attenuates more than 1968 and isn’t weird in the upper 60s and doesn’t ferment well below 66. It’s probably some derivative of the yeast Noonan brought back from England. It acts nothing like 1318 that’s for sure.

If its true its conan shouldnt you be able to identify it by esters only?
At least for me conan has that distinct peach stonefruit ester I can easily pick out on my own beers fermented with it.

 

[leesmith]

Had HF Double Galaxy yesterday.

I don’t understand why there isn’t a long running thread on Shaun’s beers like this thread.

 

[couchsending]

Like I said I think it’s some sort of derivative or mutation not sure.

What we know as Conan and 1968 look almost identical genetically but obviously are completely different yeasts. One attenuates, one doesn’t. One floccs, one doesn’t. One is better warm, the other isn’t.

They both aren’t really top croppers.

Whatever yeast I’ve been using floccs really hard, attenuates into the mid to upper 70s (so sort of between the two), doesn’t get weird in the upper 60s like 1968 but I wouldn’t say it’s peachy.

Kimmich says the peach shows up only in certain generations. I’ve never gotten that much peach with commercials available Conan but I have from Heady dregs. He also talks about his yeast that’s available and how the only stuff left in the can is the poorly flocculent yeast. I believe they crash their yeast quite hard before dry hopping and then it goes into a conditioning tank for a while and then into a Brite for carbonation. (Was just at the brewery, got to ask some questions)

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I went to HF for the first time last week on Thursday. I had Susan, Double Citra, Society and Solitude, (the galaxy/citra and the mosaic), edward, and what is enlightenment. It was my first time visiting and first time really getting to experience their beer that fresh. I must say my first impression was London III 1318, but as I worked my way through the glass and the lineup I started to realize that it is definitely not the london III us homebrewers have access to. I know there has been speculation that it is in fact 1318, but it is hard to tell. Maybe a blend of conan and london ale? Wasn't too far off from 1968... I've only brewed with this once and it was an ESB so hard to compare I guess.

Overall, I still like TH more. HF didn't blow me away the same way TH dose although HF is excellent beer. Upper echelon. I've got some 12oz cans of the mosaic society and solitude left, maybe I'll prop up some yeast after I move and get brewing again in a couple of months.

 

[leesmith]

I went to HF for the first time last week on Thursday. I had Susan, Double Citra, Society and Solitude, (the galaxy/citra and the mosaic), edward, and what is enlightenment. It was my first time visiting and first time really getting to experience their beer that fresh. I must say my first impression was London III 1318, but as I worked my way through the glass and the lineup I started to realize that it is definitely not the london III us homebrewers have access to. I know there has been speculation that it is in fact 1318, but it is hard to tell. Maybe a blend of conan and london ale? Wasn't too far off from 1968... I've only brewed with this once and it was an ESB so hard to compare I guess.

Overall, I still like TH more. HF didn't blow me away the same way TH dose although HF is excellent beer. Upper echelon. I've got some 12oz cans of the mosaic society and solitude left, maybe I'll prop up some yeast after I move and get brewing again in a couple of months.

What would you say the difference is between to two breweries? House character....etc?

I’m in the HF camp myself.

 

[beervoid]

Kimmich says the peach shows up only in certain generations. I’ve never gotten that much peach with commercials available Conan but I have from Heady dregs.

Have you re-used your conans, and did you play with fermentation schedules?

 

[stickyfinger]

Like I said I think it’s some sort of derivative or mutation not sure.

What we know as Conan and 1968 look almost identical genetically but obviously are completely different yeasts. One attenuates, one doesn’t. One floccs, one doesn’t. One is better warm, the other isn’t.

They both aren’t really top croppers.

Whatever yeast I’ve been using floccs really hard, attenuates into the mid to upper 70s (so sort of between the two), doesn’t get weird in the upper 60s like 1968 but I wouldn’t say it’s peachy.

Kimmich says the peach shows up only in certain generations. I’ve never gotten that much peach with commercials available Conan but I have from Heady dregs. He also talks about his yeast that’s available and how the only stuff left in the can is the poorly flocculent yeast. I believe they crash their yeast quite hard before dry hopping and then it goes into a conditioning tank for a while and then into a Brite for carbonation. (Was just at the brewery, got to ask some questions)

sweet. i love Alchemist. Their hoppy beers are #1 in my book. Any info you can share is much appreciated. Heady, Focal, Crusher, 1,2,3!

 

[stickyfinger]

I went to HF for the first time last week on Thursday. I had Susan, Double Citra, Society and Solitude, (the galaxy/citra and the mosaic), edward, and what is enlightenment. It was my first time visiting and first time really getting to experience their beer that fresh. I must say my first impression was London III 1318, but as I worked my way through the glass and the lineup I started to realize that it is definitely not the london III us homebrewers have access to. I know there has been speculation that it is in fact 1318, but it is hard to tell. Maybe a blend of conan and london ale? Wasn't too far off from 1968... I've only brewed with this once and it was an ESB so hard to compare I guess.

Overall, I still like TH more. HF didn't blow me away the same way TH dose although HF is excellent beer. Upper echelon. I've got some 12oz cans of the mosaic society and solitude left, maybe I'll prop up some yeast after I move and get brewing again in a couple of months.

i agree. HF is good but not as good as TH and Alchemist

 

[stickyfinger]

I feel like I can easily replicate HF. Alchemist and great TH is HARD to replicate, IMHO...

 

[couchsending]

Have you re-used your conans, and did you play with fermentation schedules?

I haven’t gone too many generations no. I really don’t like the “Conan” that’s available through yeast banks. It’s kinda finicky and slow and doesn’t flocc well. I mostly fermented it how Kimmich recommends. Underpitch and start at 68 then ramp to 72

For me HF wins. Their beers are very well put together and seem so in balance. Nothing is intense or sticks out, no sharp corners. It all blends together. Grabbed a growler of Susan and drinking it now. Surprised how bitter it is actually, which I like. Big fan of Riwaka. Unfortunately nothing I’ve ever been able to get is even close to their Riwaka.

I didn’t ask any questions I knew I wouldn’t get answers to at the Alchemist. They still blend 4 ferments into one conditioning tank and then into a Brite to carbonate. They push everything with nitrogen once it’s fermented, no pumps are used.

 

[TBryerton]

I went to HF for the first time last week on Thursday. I had Susan, Double Citra, Society and Solitude, (the galaxy/citra and the mosaic), edward, and what is enlightenment. It was my first time visiting and first time really getting to experience their beer that fresh. I must say my first impression was London III 1318, but as I worked my way through the glass and the lineup I started to realize that it is definitely not the london III us homebrewers have access to. I know there has been speculation that it is in fact 1318, but it is hard to tell. Maybe a blend of conan and london ale? Wasn't too far off from 1968... I've only brewed with this once and it was an ESB so hard to compare I guess.

Overall, I still like TH more. HF didn't blow me away the same way TH dose although HF is excellent beer. Upper echelon. I've got some 12oz cans of the mosaic society and solitude left, maybe I'll prop up some yeast after I move and get brewing again in a couple of months.

Their beer is way too good to have 1318. I love HF, I hate 1318.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

What would you say the difference is between to two breweries? House character....etc?

I’m in the HF camp myself.

Yeah I think its the yeast character, but just personal preference. HF undoubtedly has their own signature flavor. For whatever reason, I think I like tree house more!

Imperial just released Bell's house yeast and I'm dying to get my hands on it. It's great that Bell's partnered with them to do that for homebrewers. I wish we could see more of that.

 

[lowtones84]

Yeah I think its the yeast character, but just personal preference. HF undoubtedly has their own signature flavor. For whatever reason, I think I like tree house more!

Imperial just released Bell's house yeast and I'm dying to get my hands on it. It's great that Bell's partnered with them to do that for homebrewers. I wish we could see more of that.

Bell's has a history of working pretty closely with homebrewers. I think at this point they probably don't have too many trade secrets to hide, either. If you were dying to get your hands on it, have you ever tried culturing it from bottles? I did it quite successfully and made a great Two Hearted clone once. Perhaps one day TH and others will be more open, but I wouldn't hold our breath.

 

[couchsending]

Bells has it’s own homebrew store.

Most breweries are rather protective of their yeast especially if it provides a certain character that’s unique to them.

Bells yeast is just a version of Chico that floccs better. You can get it from TYB and have been able to for a while. It’s great yeast but it’s just a clean American yeast that gets out of the way.

 

[isomerization]

Bells has it’s own homebrew store.

Most breweries are rather protective of their yeast especially if it provides a certain character that’s unique to them.

Bells yeast is just a version of Chico that floccs better. You can get it from TYB and have been able to for a while. It’s great yeast but it’s just a clean American yeast that gets out of the way.

Midwestern Ale yeast for those wanting to try it.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Do you guys think it's safe to assume the Tree House's 'Bright' series are fermented with US05? While we're on the subject of chico and american ale yeasts.

 

[couchsending]

Do you guys think it's safe to assume the Tree House's 'Bright' series are fermented with US05? While we're on the subject of chico and american ale yeasts.

Yes

 

[stickyfinger]

all you Tree House nerds, can you give me a recipe for a Haze clone? I love that beer. I am assuming the same yeast ratio as in this thread but what malt bill and hops? It says it is crafted with pale malt and hops.

 

[The_Dirty_Spring]

...Haze clone?...

Agreed! It's a totally unique profile among IPA out there.

All he's divulged is Warrior CO2 extract on hot side: https://www.yakimachief.com/brewery-perspectives-with-c02-hop-extract/ - and also that it's made with "our favorite Northwest American hops" that "we currently have plenty of access to" [circa 2013-14]. I've struggled imagining what hops impart that true peach-forward character of Haze--unless maybe Warrior plays super well with the yeast? I haven't employed late or cold side Warrior with the blend yet. Perhaps Amarillo is in there, and maybe a tiny bit Citra. Among his other common NW hops, I've never suspected Mosaic or Simcoe or Chinook.

I believe @marshallb (Trinity Brewers) has been working on this based on some of his blog/comments - any new insights?

 

[The_Dirty_Spring]

As an unsolicited anecdote, Haze is why I became obsessed with beer in early 2015. Went out of my way on a road trip to visit late on a Saturday afternoon, place was a ghost town, and was poured a sample of Haze from the taps. Wow! I maxed out my can order--2 Haze and 4 Eureka.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

all you Tree House nerds, can you give me a recipe for a Haze clone? I love that beer. I am assuming the same yeast ratio as in this thread but what malt bill and hops? It says it is crafted with pale malt and hops.

Yeah def bitter with warrior extract. Amarillo is said to impart peach like flavors so maybe load up on that and come citra. As for the yeast it is probably safe to assume that its the same yeast profile used in the other beers, but that peachiness makes me second guess that statement.

 

[isomerization]

Yeah def bitter with warrior extract. Amarillo is said to impart peach like flavors so maybe load up on that and come citra. As for the yeast it is probably safe to assume that its the same yeast profile used in the other beers, but that peachiness makes me second guess that statement.

Aren’t you basically making Julius with a Citra/Amarillo combo?

As an unsolicited anecdote, Haze is why I became obsessed with beer in early 2015. Went out of my way on a road trip to visit late on a Saturday afternoon, place was a ghost town, and was poured a sample of Haze from the taps. Wow! I maxed out my can order--2 Haze and 4 Eureka.

My friend made an Azacca single hop beer that was an absolute peach bomb. I believe that’s grown in Washington and was available starting in 2013.

I wonder how the fermentation temp profiles vary across their core beers too, perhaps the yeast are stressed more (or less) for Haze?

 

[The_Dirty_Spring]

...My friend made an Azacca single hop beer that was an absolute peach bomb...

I also thought of Azacca as one of the “readily available” hops. I don’t believe he’s ever mentioned using it—but that doesn’t mean anything. He has said he doesn’t like El Dorado.

 

[couchsending]

Green is Simcoe, Amarillo, Galaxy

No real clue on Haze. The blend of yeasts they use not only create esters on their own but I would say are primarily there to transform hop compounds. It’s so hard to pick our individual hops in their beers.

I don’t think it’s any odd hop we’ve never seen them use.

Probably some sort of Amarillo, Centennial, Citra, Simcoe blend.

 

[leesmith]

No real clue on Haze. The blend of yeasts they use not only create esters on their own but I would say are primarily there to transform hop compounds. It’s so hard to pick our individual hops in their beers.

That’s my issue with TH...an honest representation of ingredients is all I ask....of any culinary/beverage endeavor.

I feel like that’s the big difference between them and HF. I’ve been able to pick out hops from HF beers without knowing them...from taste. I have a harder time doing that with TH. Frankly TH’s use of Nelson always puts me off. They get odd flavors out of that hop...

When I have a beer from HF...I feel I can trust their flavors more. Personally, I wouldn’t want to muddy the waters with yeast esters in a beer that’s supposed to highlight hop flavor and aroma. Maybe accentuate...but not do the heavy lifting.

HF’s aroma isn’t telling as much as their flavor as far as ingredients go. It’s the opposite with TH for me.

I do enjoy TH beers for what they are and not what I want them to be. But the above points clarify what I perceive as the differences between the two highly regarded breweries.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Aren’t you basically making Julius with a Citra/Amarillo combo?



My friend made an Azacca single hop beer that was an absolute peach bomb. I believe that’s grown in Washington and was available starting in 2013.

I wonder how the fermentation temp profiles vary across their core beers too, perhaps the yeast are stressed more (or less) for Haze?

I always picture Julius at being more Citra forward with a strong amarillo backbone. Maybe Haze is the other way around. Honestly, we may never know haha. I love azacca and haven't brewed with it in a long time... I plan on bringing it back.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Green is Simcoe, Amarillo, Galaxy

No real clue on Haze. The blend of yeasts they use not only create esters on their own but I would say are primarily there to transform hop compounds. It’s so hard to pick our individual hops in their beers.

I don’t think it’s any odd hop we’ve never seen them use.

Probably some sort of Amarillo, Centennial, Citra, Simcoe blend.

where did you see that?! I figured galaxy and amarillo would be in it for sure, but I find the simcoe surprising.

 

[TBryerton]

where did you see that?! I figured galaxy and amarillo would be in it for sure, but I find the simcoe surprising.

I believe Nate mentioned it was 80% Galaxy. I don’t remember how long ago that was. I personally don’t get Simcoe from it but who knows

 

[skleice]

I don't get the Simcoe in Green either. I actually recently brewed a galaxy, amarillo & Simcoe IPA and felt like the Simcoe 'tainted' the batch even though it was in a very small dose. I've switched in Columbus for next time.

 

[couchsending]

Yeah but you don’t have their Simcoe... that’s another issue these hops can really vary from lot to lot based on picking window and where it’s grown and Galaxy pretty much overpowers everything for that matter. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s small amounts of Simcoe and Amarillo. I know for a fact it had both those hops in it at one point.

But still trying to replicate these beers with the hops we as homebrewers get is a serious stab in the dark. The stuff we have to work with is generally so far down the pecking order.