Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[TheHairyHop]

Raised the temp of the large S-04/T-58 (85/15%) batch to 67F yesterday morning and added the second dry hop last night at about 72 hours post pitch. Also started the cold crash on the small 100% WB-06 batch yesterday morning, even though I'm not kegging until this weekend. I want to drop out as much of the powdery WB-06 as possible. The small batch received no dry hops.

speaking of attenuation, are you worried about carrying over the WB06 into the (relatively) under attenuated S04/T58 batch?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

speaking of attenuation, are you worried about carrying over the WB06 into the (relatively) under attenuated S04/T58 batch?

Yeah, I am TBH. We'll see what happens. I mean, the difference between 78% and 83% apparent attenuation on a 1.080 beer is like 4 gravity points, so not insignificant. I will likely adjust the amount of primer I use. I am also giving the WB-06 batch an extra long cold crash, which may help.

Also considering pitching more CBC-1 than the 2 g I've been using for this to help it outcompete the WB-06, but CBC-1 has very low attenuation as well, so who knows if that will help.

It will be a learning experience for sure.

 

[TheHairyHop]

isn't 4 GP about what is needed to carbonate the batch?

 

[hh04]

Hi all,

Longtime lurker, signed up to follow this thread. I visited Monson back in early 2016 and one of the photos I took of the brewery included the fermentation control panel/ temperature gauges with the beers listed on them. Every other time I visited the brewery the panel was covered up. I am not on my home computer right now but will try to dig up the photo and post it here.

I am a little ashamed of how long I studied and zoomed in on that photo but I can confirm the 3 smaller fermenters (5 bbl) held beers that released as growler fill only. I believe one was trail magic...

This was obviously almost two years ago but I agree with Melville's reasoning. I do not believe they are blending different batches.

Anyone else ever able to get a photo of that panel?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

isn't 4 GP about what is needed to carbonate the batch?

Yep, right around there. I'm not sure the difference in attenuation is going to be that much though. My last co-pitched attempt only went down to 75% attenuation or so. That was with 3% WB-06.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Years ago, when Wyeast would answer homebrewers' questions submitted on their website, I asked about blending yeasts and co-pitching. Greg Doss himself replied to me, and this was his response:

"There will be nothing wrong (or weird) with blending the two strains,
however one culture will most likely dominate the fermentation. If you
want to get profiles of each strain, ferment each strain separately and
then blend beers at the end."

So now we essentially have one yeast lab that recommends copitching (Chris White through the Yeast book, as @KnowYourDemons posted) and one that recommends blending separate ferments.

I'm not really saying I think it's more likely that TH is blending, co-pitching, etc. Just that they could be doing either and we don't really know.

The reason that I wanted to do the separate/blended this time is that of my two attempts I had one with excessive clove and another with no bubblegum/banana to speak of. Fermentis on their WB-06 spec sheet recommends fermenting "above 73.4F for banana." My first attempt was pitched at 77F and had very little banana, a lot of orange (from the T-58 I assume) and a lot of clove that faded over time but never went away completely. It was also SUPER tart, I assume from fermenting the S-04 so warm. My next attempt was copitched and fermented cool, but i halved the WB-06. I didn't notice the WB-06 at all. No undesirable phenols, but also no desirable banana-bubblegum esters from it. But much, much less tart.

So based on that I knew I wanted to expose the strains to different temperatures. I was deciding between staggered pitches and separate ferments, and I chose separate ferments because I feel like on my system it is more controllable than staggered pitches.

 

[hh04]

I'm not really saying I think it's more likely that TH is blending, co-pitching, etc. Just that they could be doing either and we don't really know.

The reason that I wanted to do the separate/blended this time is that of my two attempts I had one with excessive clove and another with no bubblegum/banana to speak of. Fermentis on their WB-06 spec sheet recommends fermenting "above 73.4F for banana." My first attempt was pitched at 77F and had very little banana, a lot of orange (from the T-58 I assume) and a lot of clove that faded over time but never went away completely. It was also SUPER tart, I assume from fermenting the S-04 so warm. My next attempt was copitched and fermented cool, but i halved the WB-06. I didn't notice the WB-06 at all. No undesirable phenols, but also no desirable banana-bubblegum esters from it. But much, much less tart.

So based on that I knew I wanted to expose the strains to different temperatures. I was deciding between staggered pitches and separate ferments, and I chose separate ferments because I feel like on my system it is more controllable than staggered pitches.

I am extremely curious as to how your brew turns out. I believe there could be multiple paths that lead to a similar destination and we may never know if TH does blend, co-pitch yeast, or stagger pitches. I know other breweries (The Veil) have stated they use a mix of yeasts as well for their house ale yeast. Again, does that mean co-pitch, blend, staggering? With the demand for these breweries is it feasible to tie up multiple tanks for blending?

We are all vested in this thread to learn insight into TH process and ultimately create some great beer. I do not know TH's process but I am just trying to contribute and figure out the best way to achieve their quality of beer. From the fermentation panel at TH (if i can recall correctly), almost all of their beers were fermenting in a single fermenter, not multiple fermenters per batch and the three 5 bbl tanks housed one-off/smaller batch beers. This would lead me to believe they are not blending but I am not claiming to have special insight, especially when it comes to brewing at that scale.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I believe there could be multiple paths that lead to a similar destination

Yeah, for sure. I certainly didn't exhaust my options with copitching, and I know others like @melville have had great results with copitching. Also, I believe @marshallb (and maybe others?) have had good results with both copitching and staggered pitching. I'm looking forward to when my blended ferment batch is ready so I can offer my anecdotes on how my co-pitches and the blend compare.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

We are all vested in this thread to learn insight into TH process and ultimately create some great beer. I do not know TH's process but I am just trying to contribute and figure out the best way to achieve their quality of beer.

Meant to say this earlier, but i in no way intended to imply your contribution is not valid. Sorry if it came off that way.

 

[WildOakes]

Raised the temp of the large S-04/T-58 (85/15%) batch to 67F yesterday morning and added the second dry hop last night at about 72 hours post pitch. Also started the cold crash on the small 100% WB-06 batch yesterday morning, even though I'm not kegging until this weekend. I want to drop out as much of the powdery WB-06 as possible. The small batch received no dry hops.

I'm a little late to the party here, but found this forum a couple weeks ago and have been picking through it collecting as much information as I can. I found the information in this forum very intriguing. I'm just about to cold crash my first run at this trio of yeast. My first try was co-pitching at 70 and lowering to 64 after 24 hours. I haven't taken a sample yet so I am unsure of the results, but will post once I do. I had very low ratios with the T-58 (5%) and WB-06(3%). I plan on brewing a new batch this week to try some different methods. I'm really curious to see your results of blending @ThePaleAleIndian . I like the idea because like you and others have said you need each yeast at different temps to get what you want. I am also curious to know what your pitching rates and volume were on the WB-06? I know its been stated that CBC-1 is a "killer" yeast. So have you thought about pitching it into the WB-06 fermenter or maybe the t-58 and s-04 before blending to stop the WB-06 from eating up a bunch of sugars and producing those "off" flavors.

Also I remember reading in the beginning that someone, I believe @melville shared a post from Nate and how they use 95% base malt in a lot of their beers. Anybody give this a try? Maybe 95% GP or 2-row and 5% carafoam?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I'm really curious to see your results of blending @ThePaleAleIndian . I like the idea because like you and others have said you need each yeast at different temps to get what you want. I am also curious to know what your pitching rates and volume were on the WB-06?

Yeah, I'm starting to get antsy haha. So I pitched 0.35 g WB-06 in a 3-3.5 ish quart batch. The balance of the 5 gal batch was 14 g S-04 and 2.5 g T-58 (85/15%), brewed separately.

I know its been stated that CBC-1 is a "killer" yeast. So have you thought about pitching it into the WB-06 fermenter or maybe the t-58 and s-04 before blending to stop the WB-06 from eating up a bunch of sugars and producing those "off" flavors.

I think that would be a good thing to try, but only before fermentation is through. As far as I know, CBC-1 only produces its toxin when fermenting, so if you pitch it after a fermentation, especially by a more attenuative yeast like WB-06, I don't think it'll have any effect. I would probably still add more at kegging and naturally carb. Also, that killer effect seems to be slow, as others have found when growing up yeast from TH cans - the other strains are still around in high enough numbers to cause undesirable phenolics. I don't really think the killer effect of CBC-1 is super useful to us, more just that it's a neutral strain that will preserve the flavor profile made during primary fermentation and hopefully outcompete the POF+ strains if added at kegging time for natural carbing.

 

[JohnConnor]

I'm going to assume the tanks on the canning line and CBC-1 go together. My thought is that they mix a very small amount of wort and CBC-1 to beer going into the cans. Once sealed, they'll munch on what ever O2 is brought in during canning. A la Belgian brewing 101. I don't think they're naturally carbing their tanks. Goes hand in hand with Curiosity 44 that talks about natural carbing as a new process. Also could explain why CBC-1 is the most prominent in the cultures.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I've been thinking about this water stuff as well. Looking at the Ward lab results in the BYO article a couple of pages ago, Michael's beer was pretty consistent with Heady Topper except for the SO4/Cl ratio. I mean, across the board, including Ca, Mg, Na and K. If you compare that to the Alter Ego results, Michael's SO4/Cl is pretty close, but the Ca is way low on Alter Ego and the K is way high. Sorry that this is just stating the obvious so far. But I feel like KCl is a pretty elegant solution to this. It would keep the Ca low and put Cl and K in the ballpark. The other possibility is that TH is using some combination of malts to get there, but the K is so much higher and Ca so much lower for the same SO4 + Cl than Heady or Michael's beer that I feel like KCl is more likely.

So... I added KCl to the spreadsheet I use for my water adjustment. I'm not necessarily trying to match the specific numbers from Alter Ego, being that a lot goes on between brewing liquor and finished beer. But I feel like it's safe to say TH's adjusted brewing water is most likely high Cl, some SO4, relatively soft with some alkalinity.

So my local water profile is:
Ca 25 ppm
Mg 8 ppm
Na 5 ppm
Cl 11 ppm
SO4 23 ppm
HCO3 96 ppm
K 0 ppm

If I cut to 3/8 distilled, I get:
Ca 16 ppm
Mg 5 ppm
Na 3 ppm
Cl 7 ppm
SO4 15 ppm
HCO3 60 ppm
K 0 ppm

For 5 gal of strike water, if I add 2.8 g of CaSO4-2H2O and 7.5 g of KCl, I get:
Ca 50 ppm
Mg 5 ppm
Na 3 ppm
Cl 195 ppm
SO4 97 ppm
HCO3 60 ppm
K 208 ppm

I think this is the profile I'm going to try to hit for my next attempt. About 200 ppm Cl with a 2:1 Cl:SO4 with 50 ppm Ca, some of which will precipitate out. Not worried about the K because a lot comes with the malt anyway. Hopefully this will get me close. I collect mash/strike and sparge water separately and will adjust both to the same profile. Brewday isn't until Dec. 2nd though. Pre-negotiated with SWMBO haha.

Did you ever get around to adding KCl, and if so, how did the beer turn out?

 

[couchsending]

I'm going to assume the tanks on the canning line and CBC-1 go together. My thought is that they mix a very small amount of wort and CBC-1 to beer going into the cans. Once sealed, they'll munch on what ever O2 is brought in during canning. A la Belgian brewing 101. I don't think they're naturally carbing their tanks. Goes hand in hand with Curiosity 44 that talks about natural carbing as a new process. Also could explain why CBC-1 is the most prominent in the cultures.

Don’t think that’s what happens. Cans go right from canning line to Sales and they’re fully carbed. If they were carbed naturally in the can it would take at least a week to carbonate.

I honestly don’t think the CBC-1 is really there for carbing personally. There is so much yeast in suspension already that there really is no need for it to actually carbonate, the other yeast could do that no problem with a sugar addition. It’s either to halt fermentation of the WB-06 potentially or just make it hard to harvest their yeast, ala Hill Farmstead.

My guess on the C44 is Krausening.

 

[JohnConnor]

Don’t think that’s what happens. Cans go right from canning line to Sales and they’re fully carbed. If they were carbed naturally in the can it would take at least a week to carbonate.

I honestly don’t think the CBC-1 is really there for carbing personally. There is so much yeast in suspension already that there really is no need for it to actually carbonate, the other yeast could do that no problem with a sugar addition. It’s either to halt fermentation of the WB-06 potentially or just make it hard to harvest their yeast, ala Hill Farmstead.

My guess on the C44 is Krausening.

You are confusing what I'm saying. I agree, they aren't naturally carbing with CBC. My thought is their process is as such. Make beer. Crash as much yeast out of the beer. Possibly centrifuge (I'm pretty sure I read somewhere Trillium uses one). Force carb in brights. As they're canning, they squirt a tiny bit of fresh wort/CBC-01 mix in the can. A tiny amount wouldn't do much to add carb but would be handy in eliminating any O2 inevitably introduced during canning. Aka Belgian brewing 101.

Also, if you're a business, you're really going to waste money on sabotaging your own product? Possibly to the detriment of your product? I don't buy it.

 

[couchsending]

You are confusing what I'm saying. I agree, they aren't naturally carbing with CBC. My thought is their process is as such. Make beer. Crash as much yeast out of the beer. Possibly centrifuge (I'm pretty sure I read somewhere Trillium uses one). Force carb in brights. As they're canning, they squirt a tiny bit of fresh wort/CBC-01 mix in the can. A tiny amount wouldn't do much to add carb but would be handy in eliminating any O2 inevitably introduced during canning. Aka Belgian brewing 101.

Also, if you're a business, you're really going to waste money on sabotaging your own product? Possibly to the detriment of your product? I don't buy it.

Adding any fresh wort and yeast at packaging would create additional Co2 in the can over time so Cans would have different levels of carb over time. That doesn’t happen. Belgian breweries do it for many reasons along with O2 scrubbing.

There is no way adding CBC-1 after fermentation could harm their product. There is nothing it can consume as it is incapable of processing any of the remaining available sugars. Yet it could just as easily protect their business and investment. It is a rather common procedure in brewing of all kinds of beer.

 

[willy_w]

Adding any fresh wort and yeast at packaging would create additional Co2 in the can over time so Cans would have different levels of carb over time. That doesn’t happen. Belgian breweries do it for many reasons along with O2 scrubbing.

There is no way adding CBC-1 after fermentation could harm their product. There is nothing it can consume as it is incapable of processing any of the remaining available sugars. Yet it could just as easily protect their business and investment. It is a rather common procedure in brewing of all kinds of beer.

First off, this thread has been incredible. A huge thank you to everyone that has been contributing! I'm on my second attempt, with my first I followed the Trinity blog's schedule-ish (thanks!) and this time with a co-pitch @ 64 degrees. I'll give a larger write-up and comparison in a week or so once the co-pitch is finished fermenting.

With regards to the current conversation around CBC-1, I would like to add that I've been lucky enough to try Treehouse many times over the years both on the East Coast (without being shipped) and on the West Cost (where I live, shipped), and I noticed something interesting with some recent cans I had at home. Most have always been 3-4 weeks old when consumed, but those I had this past week were 3 different cans all from late November and were all more carbonated than any Treehouse I've ever had. I know that many factors are at play that could have this affect, but I would at least like to add there could be some very slow re-fermentation going on in the can with CBC-1 in order to prolong their lives and fight off oxidation.

 

[isomerization]

Catching back up on this thread, glad to see the party is still going

Wanted to post that the Mad Fermentationist mentioned our thread in his most recent post:
https://www.themadfermentationist.c...Fermentationist+(The+Mad+Fermentationist)&m=1

Pretty cool!!

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Catching back up on this thread, glad to see the party is still going

Wanted to post that the Mad Fermentationist mentioned our thread in his most recent post:
https://www.themadfermentationist.c...Fermentationist+(The+Mad+Fermentationist)&m=1

Pretty cool!!

Heeeey, glad to see you back! Tried anything with the yeast trio lately?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Did you ever get around to adding KCl, and if so, how did the beer turn out?

I did, yeah. Turned out ok as far as what the KCl was supposed to do. I did a side by side with that beer and Doppelganger and it was very close mouthfeel wise. Overall that beer wasn't quite what I was hoping it would be, although that had nothing to do with the KCl. I have another batch going now that I used KCl on.

I know @melville and @Livinon2 have been experimenting with KCl as well. They are likely more batches in than I am.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

So a few (dozen?) posts ago I know there was some discussion about oxygen ingress in the context of blending finished beers at kegging, and some interest in how to closed CO2 transfer from a 1 gal jug. I did manage to rig something up for that.

I've attached a pic, but essentially, I took a white growler cap that has the same threads as my 1 gal fermenter and drilled two holes in it. One hole is 15/32" and the other is 5/16" (those are the bit sizes). I then put a 7/16" OD 5/16" ID grommet in the bigger hole and a 5/16" OD, 1/4" tube with a corresponding barb in the smaller hole. The barb is 5/16" on the other side, to mate up with the ID of the standard hose I use for CO2. With the grommet and tube in the cap, I sealed everything up with clear silicone RTV. The last piece, I bought a 5/16" OD stainless tube, cut it to size with a tubing cutter, cleaned it up with a deburring tool and bent it to make a short, thin racking cane. The cane is a very snug fit in the grommet, much more snug than a 3/8" cane in my orange carboy cap.

There is not much real estate to work with in the growler caps, and I found these hole sizes to work well for me. I did a dry run with a half gallon growler full of water tonight and it worked beautifully. YMMV.

The plan for kegging day is to stick the racking cane in the headspace with the transfer tubing attached, run the CO2 through it for a minute and then hook up the disconnect to the keg and begin the transfer of the smaller WB-06 batch with the now-purged cane and lines. Then repeat with my 6.5 gal carboy and carboy cap for the larger S-04/T-58 batch.

For some reason my pics all attach sideways...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I did, yeah. Turned out ok as far as what the KCl was supposed to do. I did a side by side with that beer and Doppelganger and it was very close mouthfeel wise. Overall that beer wasn't quite what I was hoping it would be, although that had nothing to do with the KCl. I have another batch going now that I used KCl on.

I know @melville and @Livinon2 have been experimenting with KCl as well. They are likely more batches in than I am.

How many typical grams of KCl are all of you adding per gallon of water? Is it going into your strike water, sparge water, or the kettle? Any other KCl outcome reports?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

How many typical grams of KCl are all of you adding per gallon of water? Is it going into your strike water, sparge water, or the kettle? Any other KCl outcome reports?

The way i did it on this last batch was:

1) Gypsum up to 100 ppm SO4
2) Calcium Chloride up to 75 ppm Ca
3) KCl up to 200 ppm Cl

Don't have my notes in front of me right now, but it comes out to about 10-14 g KCl in a 5 gal batch and something like 160 ppm KCl. It would be more KCl if you restricted yourself to less calcium.

My standard process is to match my ion concentrations in strike and sparge water, so adjust my salt additions according to the respective water volumes.

 

[JohnConnor]

Adding any fresh wort and yeast at packaging would create additional Co2 in the can over time so Cans would have different levels of carb over time. That doesn’t happen. Belgian breweries do it for many reasons along with O2 scrubbing.

There is no way adding CBC-1 after fermentation could harm their product. There is nothing it can consume as it is incapable of processing any of the remaining available sugars. Yet it could just as easily protect their business and investment. It is a rather common procedure in brewing of all kinds of beer.

Correct, if I fill a can half fresh wort/yeast and half beer there will be a huge difference in carbonation levels. What I'm talking about is such a small amount the difference would be negligible. I've read of breweries sprinkling a small amount of yeast when canning/bottling to do what I talked about.

Do you have references on the "this is a rather common procedure?" Because this is the first time I've ever heard of someone deliberately doing this.

 

[melville]

How many typical grams of KCl are all of you adding per gallon of water? Is it going into your strike water, sparge water, or the kettle? Any other KCl outcome reports?

I can say switching from gypsum/CaCl added to the mash water to less gypsum & epsom & NaCl & KCl & no CaCl with the NaCl and KCl added to the boil has been my most notable improvement towards a softer, fuller beer. Note what hasn't changed is my Sulfate/Chloride ratio 100/250 but my Ca is way down and my Na is way up. Don't know which variable/s are the most important, but not changing because it works for me — though I suspect I could drop the KCl and just use the NaCl, just nervous about hitting some Na threshold in the flavor.

 

[JohnConnor]

I can say switching from gypsum/CaCl added to the mash water to less gypsum & epsom & NaCl & KCl & no CaCl with the NaCl and KCl added to the boil has been my most notable improvement towards a softer, fuller beer. Note what hasn't changed is my Sulfate/Chloride ratio 100/250 but my Ca is way down and my Na is way up. Don't know which variable/s are the most important, but not changing because it works for me — though I suspect I could drop the KCl and just use the NaCl, just nervous about hitting some Na threshold in the flavor.

Did you read the newest Brulosophy around NaCl? I don't think I'm going to go as high as they did but I'm still going to give it a run.

 

[melville]

Did you read the newest Brulosophy around NaCl? I don't think I'm going to go as high as they did but I'm still going to give it a run.

Saw that. Just looked and the beer fermenting now was 87ppm of Na, which is a smidge higher than the past 2 or 3.

 

[JohnConnor]

Saw that. Just looked and the beer fermenting now was 87ppm of Na, which is a smidge higher than the past 2 or 3.

I'd love to do Ward's testing like Themadfermentists did with different mineral combos. It would be interested to see if you actually hit your 87ppm and what that translate into the final product.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I can say switching from gypsum/CaCl added to the mash water to less gypsum & epsom & NaCl & KCl & no CaCl with the NaCl and KCl added to the boil has been my most notable improvement towards a softer, fuller beer. Note what hasn't changed is my Sulfate/Chloride ratio 100/250 but my Ca is way down and my Na is way up. Don't know which variable/s are the most important, but not changing because it works for me — though I suspect I could drop the KCl and just use the NaCl, just nervous about hitting some Na threshold in the flavor.

Do you recall roughly how much KCl you have added? Are you holding Ca at around 50 ppm?

 

[marshallb]

Yeah, for sure. I certainly didn't exhaust my options with copitching, and I know others like @melville have had great results with copitching. Also, I believe @marshallb (and maybe others?) have had good results with both copitching and staggered pitching. I'm looking forward to when my blended ferment batch is ready so I can offer my anecdotes on how my co-pitches and the blend compare.

@marshallb, heeeey you're back! Love your website and the work you've done on this yeast blend and recipe! I have a question for you, thought I would ask it here real quick. What made you go from your staggered yeast additions to a simplified co-pitch? Just wondering, as I am considering staggering after my first couple of attempts were co-pitches. Do you feel like you get the same ester/subtle phenolic character with the co-pitch vs. staggered?

Hey yeah been out of the game a bit with holidays and such. I finally made it to the Treehouse facility too. We have family in Connecticut so I drove up one Friday morning just before Christmas. It was amazing, but for 280 miles roundtrip and standing in line for an hour while it was teenº I walked away with 9 beers lol. I was just happy to finally make it up there. Funny story, you guys all know TH doesn't use fruit, but the beer I made it there for had grapefruits from my home state haha. I was standing in line like "I drove all this way for a damn Texas grapefruit IPA??" Luckily though it tasted like TH and was fantastic.
I switched to a single pitch based on my findings and working with others who aren't in this thread. I don't know how TH does it, but for my money I'm copitching now. I'm also like 90% sure they finish fermentation under pressure so the beer is naturally carbed at least a little. We may never know his actual process but I bet it's a safe guess. I also made the switch to try and streamline the process a little. While I had amazing results, others didn't do so well, and some fairly off target beers might have come from my advice.
I have a new IPA on deck and can't wait to get rolling again. This one is mostly Enigma and I'm experimenting with new blends: Mangrove Jack Liberty Bell as the base.
*edit - now back to read and catch up on what I missed.

 

[NJGeorge]

I can say switching from gypsum/CaCl added to the mash water to less gypsum & epsom & NaCl & KCl & no CaCl with the NaCl and KCl added to the boil has been my most notable improvement towards a softer, fuller beer. Note what hasn't changed is my Sulfate/Chloride ratio 100/250 but my Ca is way down and my Na is way up. Don't know which variable/s are the most important, but not changing because it works for me — though I suspect I could drop the KCl and just use the NaCl, just nervous about hitting some Na threshold in the flavor.

So for the mash water, you’re just adjusting ph? Then adding the salts to boil?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Hey yeah been out of the game a bit with holidays and such. I finally made it to the Treehouse facility too. We have family in Connecticut so I drove up one Friday morning just before Christmas. It was amazing, but for 280 miles roundtrip and standing in line for an hour while it was teenº I walked away with 9 beers lol. I was just happy to finally make it up there. Funny story, you guys all know TH doesn't use fruit, but the beer I made it there for had grapefruits from my home state haha. I was standing in line like "I drove all this way for a damn Texas grapefruit IPA??" Luckily though it tasted like TH and was fantastic.
I switched to a single pitch based on my findings and working with others who aren't in this thread. I don't know how TH does it, but for my money I'm copitching now. I'm also like 90% sure they finish fermentation under pressure so the beer is naturally carbed at least a little. We may never know his actual process but I bet it's a safe guess. I also made the switch to try and streamline the process a little. While I had amazing results, others didn't do so well, and some fairly off target beers might have come from my advice.
I have a new IPA on deck and can't wait to get rolling again. This one is mostly Enigma and I'm experimenting with new blends: Mangrove Jack Liberty Bell as the base.
*edit - now back to read and catch up on what I missed.

Awesome, haha, glad you made it out!

Would you say the ester character is a lot different copitching vs. staggered? Anything in the fruit flavors strike you as more or less from one to the other? Bubblegum/banana, citrus, etc.?

 

[marshallb]

Awesome, haha, glad you made it out!

Would you say the ester character is a lot different copitching vs. staggered? Anything in the fruit flavors strike you as more or less from one to the other? Bubblegum/banana, citrus, etc.?

Oh man, let me see. I'd say the phenols are less pronounced taking a back seat to an overall fruity flavor. I get some stone fruit, fresh citrus, and smooth juicy fruit character. I like the way it all blends together without having to do the extra work.

 

[melville]

Do you recall roughly how much KCl you have added? Are you holding Ca at around 50 ppm?

I want to say between 30-40ppm on the Ca so that's the limiter on gypsum (I used Epsom to get the rest of the 100 ppm sulfate). The KCl is whatever it takes to get to 250ppm chloride after the Na from NaCl gets to something like 70-80ppm. I think I could skip the KCl and just go all NaCl — no hint of saltiness.

 

[melville]

So for the mash water, you’re just adjusting ph? Then adding the salts to boil?

I add the gypsum and Epsom and whatever lactic I need. Then I check the pH in the mash, but almost always 5.2-5.3. once I get it in the kettle I add the NaCl and KCl and check pH again.

To be clear — no idea which part of this scenario is critical, just that all together this is making me softer beer.

 

[NJGeorge]

I add the gypsum and Epsom and whatever lactic I need. Then I check the pH in the mash, but almost always 5.2-5.3. once I get it in the kettle I add the NaCl and KCl and check pH again.

To be clear — no idea which part of this scenario is critical, just that all together this is making me softer beer.

Good stuff. I’m going to give this approach a go. I also got better results adding CaCl to the kettle but I’ve been adding too much Ca with that addition. Don’t know if that has any negative affects. What are you using for NaCl?

 

[LumberZach]

Melville, I just made a quick water profile in Bru'n Water using Epsom Salt, Gypsum, and Canning Salt (NaCl). In order to get to your ppm's without using KCl, the Na (Sodium) ppm is at 162. I have a feeling that might be at the threshold of being able to taste. My numbers look like this:

• Calcium: 40ppm
• Magnesium: 1ppm
• Sodium: 162ppm
• Sulfate: 100ppm
• Chloride: 250ppm
• Bicarbonate: -94ppm

 

[Livinon2]

Update on my third attempt with the yeast blend. Getting closer.

OG 1.064 FG 1.009 6.25 gallons
66.7% Rahr 2-row
24.3% Weyermann Spelt
4.5% Carafoam
4.5% Carahell

60 min - 5 mL hopshot
10 min steep - 5 oz Columbus and 2 oz Citra

81|15.5|3.5 (SO4|T58|WB06) 11.6 g total
Pitched 75 F, Primary 62 F for 4 days ramped to 68 F till kegged

12 g KCl, 3.5 g MgSO4, 4 g citric acid, 4.5 mL lactic acid
Ca 1 | Mg 10 | Na 8 | SO4 41 | Cl 140 | K 150
Mash pH 5.2

48 hr dry hop 3 oz citra/1 oz amarillo
Day 10 dry hop 2 oz citra/1 oz amarillo
Cold crashed day 14

Overall I'm very happy with this attempt. It's full and finishes soft which I've failed to achieve in past batches. The yeast character is more prominent in both the aroma and flavor with a light peppery finish. Tried it side by side with a Green from December. Green had more yeast character and T58 really came across stronger. It also had the subtle bubblegum that my batch is missing. My batch also came across as hoppier but less balanced (too dry). Lastly, green came across with a much stronger malt aroma and flavor. I like the carahell sweetness but didnt get a ton of flavor. But that foam! For next batch I'm getting away from 2-row and want to start experimenting with a more characterful base malt (Pearl, MO, GP). I'm also thinking 75|20|5 for the yeast.

I plan to keep co-pitching but I'm excited to hear how blending trials go for you guys. Keep it coming! I love catching up on this thread.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Update on my third attempt with the yeast blend. Getting closer.

OG 1.064 FG 1.009 6.25 gallons
66.7% Rahr 2-row
24.3% Weyermann Spelt
4.5% Carafoam
4.5% Carahell

60 min - 5 mL hopshot
10 min steep - 5 oz Columbus and 2 oz Citra

81|15.5|3.5 (SO4|T58|WB06) 11.6 g total
Pitched 75 F, Primary 62 F for 4 days ramped to 68 F till kegged

12 g KCl, 3.5 g MgSO4, 4 g citric acid, 4.5 mL lactic acid
Ca 1 | Mg 10 | Na 8 | SO4 41 | Cl 140 | K 150
Mash pH 5.2

48 hr dry hop 3 oz citra/1 oz amarillo
Day 10 dry hop 2 oz citra/1 oz amarillo
Cold crashed day 14

Overall I'm very happy with this attempt. It's full and finishes soft which I've failed to achieve in past batches. The yeast character is more prominent in both the aroma and flavor with a light peppery finish. Tried it side by side with a Green from December. Green had more yeast character and T58 really came across stronger. It also had the subtle bubblegum that my batch is missing. My batch also came across as hoppier but less balanced (too dry). Lastly, green came across with a much stronger malt aroma and flavor. I like the carahell sweetness but didnt get a ton of flavor. But that foam! For next batch I'm getting away from 2-row and want to start experimenting with a more characterful base malt (Pearl, MO, GP). I'm also thinking 75|20|5 for the yeast.

I plan to keep co-pitching but I'm excited to hear how blending trials go for you guys. Keep it coming! I love catching up on this thread.

Awesome!!

Hey, I have a question on the citric acid. I thought solid citric acid comes in the form of citrate bonded to a cation, i.e. sodium citrate, calcium citrate etc. Do you know how much of a cation is in the citric acid you're using? I've been thinking about acidifying my sparge water with it, so thought I would ask.

It always shocks me for some reason how pale some of the TH core lineup is. Green and Haze are so pale. Some of the others not as much. Haven't put a whole lot of thought to this, but it seems like the higher gravity/ABV beers are paler? Makes me wonder if Nate is modulating the crystal malt corresponding to gravity, meaning higher gravity beers that already have more residual sweetness to them get less crystal for balance? Just thinking out loud.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

Green had more yeast character and T58 really came across stronger. It also had the subtle bubblegum that my batch is missing.

That subtle bubblegum is my current obsession. I must have it!! That was the main motivation for me fermenting the WB-06 separately and blending.

Just started the cold crash on the large S-04/T-58 batch this morning. Blending and kegging tomorrow!