Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[StinkyBeer]

T58 - Pitched and fermented at 25degs, heavy dry hop produces an intensely fruity and tangy beer. Minimal spice. It does throw some sulphur but by day 5-6 it has gone. I can't say it simpler than that really. I'm sure it's also a great yeast to can/keg/bright tank condition/carbonate too...but so are many many other strains. It also produces a beer with a lovely creamy thick mouthfeel.

I would suggest trying the above before making any conclusions regarding primary fermentation yeasts.

I still stand by my 'spunding' for 'natural carbonation' proclamations. It is common practice to dry hop and cap to achieve some CO2 dissolution and then to finish off through force carbonation.

The S-04/T58 50/50 beer I recently made is a mango and pineapple bomb with slight spice, tangy finish, huge murk, slight bubblegum.

 

[Ruckusz28]

I brewed a session ipa batch yesterday featuring centennial/cascade/simcoe. OG 1.044. I did not oxygenate the wort. I did not use any fining agents. I treated the mash with chloride only. Mash of 150 for 60 minutes at a ph of 5.2. Grist of pilsner, carafoam, and 2% honey malt.

At the time of pitching I added half of my dry hops.

I direct pitched the equivalent of 1 sachet by weight consisting of 50% US04, 25% T58, 25% S33. Fermenting at ambient temperatures in my home with the AC on. After about 5 hours, the entire house smells like a tropical oasis. Peach, banana, gooey fruit, insert ambiguous fruit descriptor.

Updates to follow.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Was S-33 pegged as being in a Tree house culture? I may have missed that bit

 

[StinkyBeer]

S - 33 was a red square 'hunch'. So far it is not a Treehouse yeast. It does appear in the right hands to throw some pleasant fruity esters though.

Ruckusz28 - Can't wait to see how that one finishes up! Any idea what temp it's at?

 

[isomerization]

Was S-33 pegged as being in a Tree house culture? I may have missed that bit

As StinkyBeer mentioned, it does not appear to be one of the 4 yeasts. My current hypothesis is that the red square could be a strain added after the initial pitch (something like F-2), which could account for the higher ratio we see with this strain. The primary dry yeasts would then be S-04, T-58 and WB-06. Needs to be tested though.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Word. Thanks. This thread is especially hard to follow on mobile haha. I have a NEIPA that I fermented with 1318 as a test of my new system. A 50/50 of T-58 and S-04 is my next move. Unfortunately, I no longer have temp control for fermentation. I'll be sure to add to the reports

 

[isomerization]

Word. Thanks. This thread is especially hard to follow on mobile haha. I have a NEIPA that I fermented with 1318 as a test of my new system. A 50/50 of T-58 and S-04 is my next move. Unfortunately, I no longer have temp control for fermentation. I'll be sure to add to the reports

Well the advice with that yeast combo is to ferment at 25 C, which is around 77 F, so I think you're ok w/o temp control!

 

[Ruckusz28]

ruckusz28 - can't wait to see how that one finishes up! Any idea what temp it's at?

70f ambient so likely north of 74f inside the vessel.

 

[melville]

The T-58 is either for natural carbonation or has to be blended in after ferment. I have a hard time believing that they would be copitching yeasts that benefit from such wide range of ferm temps. T-58 fermented cold is definitely spicy and while I've never tried S-04 warm everything I've read says it gets really messy. Maybe start the ferment wit T-58 and when it stalls (which it notoriously will) pitch in some S-04 at a lower temp to finish it out. Not sure if droppin the temp would produced Diacetyl or not and if it did would the S-04 clean it up...

I'm convinced that both HF and Treehouse naturally carbonate their beers. I just don't think there is any way you can get that soft feel without it. Everyone thinks it's not good for hoppy beers but that usually refers to bottle conditioning. In a keg (or bright tank) it makes much more sense and if you think about it, it pulls any available oxygen out of the beer. I've got two beers on tap now. One fermented with 007 and then naturally carbonated with T-58 and dextrose. The other one is 75% S-04 and 25% T-58 then naturally carbonated with bagged hops in the keg. Just used Dextrose for carbonation and it didn't quite get there. Next round I'm going to try carbonating with highly hopped Gyle and T-58 to see affect that might have on the aroma...

I also built up some HF yeast harvested from a growler of S&S9. Willing to bet there are a few different yeasts in there too. It's doesn't smell as phenolic as the starter I built from the growler of Sap but it has a distinct Saison aroma to it. Pitched it in a 5g batch of fresh 2017 Galaxy hopped IPA this afternoon. Interested to see what happens.

One other suggestion I might have for the mystery yeast is 1450. Whatever was in that Sap harvest produced the thickest mouthfeel Of any beer I've ever made. Nothing I did was different than normal and I've never had that type of mouthfeel in any beer I've made even a 158 mashed 1.024 FG Porter. FG of that beer was 1.016. One of the biggest descriptors of 1450 is mouthfeel.

Mind sharing your carbonation technique? How much t-58 do you add? How much sugar, can you do it without a spunding valve?

Also – Did you note any differences between 007 and S-04?

 

[melville]

I brewed a session ipa batch yesterday featuring centennial/cascade/simcoe. OG 1.044. I did not oxygenate the wort. I did not use any fining agents. I treated the mash with chloride only. Mash of 150 for 60 minutes at a ph of 5.2. Grist of pilsner, carafoam, and 2% honey malt.

At the time of pitching I added half of my dry hops.

I direct pitched the equivalent of 1 sachet by weight consisting of 50% US04, 25% T58, 25% S33. Fermenting at ambient temperatures in my home with the AC on. After about 5 hours, the entire house smells like a tropical oasis. Peach, banana, gooey fruit, insert ambiguous fruit descriptor.

Updates to follow.

Did you rehydrate or sprinkle in?

 

[Ruckusz28]

@Melville

007 is quite different than us04. I recently did a side-by-side comparison on a Old Ale period one half of the batch using 007 and the other half using us 04. The batch using 007 is much thinner dryer and allows more of the roasty flavors to come through. The batch using Uso for is a little sweeter has a better mouth feel and has all kinds of vanilla toffee caramel notes. I'm not saying that one is better than the other, however I am saying that they are very different and I do prefer us 04.

 

[melville]

Went with a 50:30:20 blend of S-04:WB-06:T:58 in IPA with Citra, Galaxy, and Motueka last night. Woke up and bubbling quite nicely.

 

[isomerization]

Went with a 50:30:20 blend of S-04:WB-06:T:58 in IPA with Citra, Galaxy, and Motueka last night. Woke up and bubbling quite nicely.

Sweet, good to see we have multiple experimental batches going!

 

[WestumHjemmebryggeri]

I highly doubt they are naturally carbonating their IPAs - I'm not sure any brewery would want their fresh/hoppy beer 'aging' just to get carbonation into it. I've never heard or met any brewery who naturally carbonates their super hoppy IPAs.

Several breweries within the NE-style dry hop under pressure, so my guess would be that they carb it at the same time as they do that.

 

[melville]

Took a gravity reading this a.m. (still under 48 hours of fermentation) and the 50:30:20 combo has brought things down from 1.068 to 1.022. Smells nice, I do get a bit of something saison-y in there when tasting it. First round of dry hops going in.

 

[isomerization]

Is anyone interested in asking TreeHouseNate on Twitter whether they blend their yeast pre-pitch or post fermentation? He seems to respond to a lot of questions, so his answer might be helpful.

 

[Ruckusz28]

I blended pre pitch, but multi step yeast additions during fermentation do make more sense IMO. Timing and temperature for each variety and addition become individually manipulatable. Temperature being most important in coaxing out the desired esters and suppressing the undesirable.

 

[isomerization]

I blended pre pitch, but multi step yeast additions during fermentation do make more sense IMO. Timing and temperature for each variety and addition become individually manipulatable. Temperature being most important in coaxing out the desired esters and suppressing the undesirable.

They also become more difficult to reproduce! Or do we think that on a commercial scale, fermentation will proceed in equivalent fashion, say down to the hour, if all variables are kept the same from batch to batch?

 

[Ruckusz28]

I suppose that all depends. For me, I would measure the amounts of yeast and contribute them to the batch when the beer hits landmarks such as gravity or time. Gravity would be the best indicator IMO. As long as its the same recipe and equipment, I'd imagine things to be fairly direct to replicate as long as you have consistent measurement and monitoring practices in place.

 

[melville]

I suppose that all depends. For me, I would measure the amounts of yeast and contribute them to the batch when the beer hits landmarks such as gravity or time. Gravity would be the best indicator IMO. As long as its the same recipe and equipment, I'd imagine things to be fairly direct to replicate as long as you have consistent measurement and monitoring practices in place.

It seems... counterintuitive to give successive yeast strains a crack at wort/beer with less and less to sugar to work with. In my mind I would think esters and phenolics would be a byproduct of conversion, the more there is to convert the more esters etc. (I have no idea if this is actually how it works.)

This is sort of what makes me so suspicious of T-58 as anything other than a carbonation strain.

 

[isomerization]

The way I see it, is there are 3 (plausible) options here to end up with 4 different yeast strains in the bottom of TH cans.

1.) Yeasts are pitched into the same wort at controlled ratios
2.) Individual yeast strains are used to ferment various volumes of (the same?) wort and blended in a bright tank
3.) Yeasts are added at various times in the process, could be as either Strasser or Melville describe (e.g. staggered during primary or in the bright tank to help carbonate)

RE ester generation, its always been my understanding that esters/phenols are most abundantly generated during yeast propagation. This is why temp control within the first few days is so important, and also why you can use WY3711 to finish off difficult fermentations and not end up with a saison.

 

[cegan09]

This is a crazy interesting thread. I look forward to seeing it progress.

I have heard that Nate From TH is crazy detail oriented, and meticulous about making sure everything is done the same every time. (so the opposite of me). That may or may not lend some credit to the idea of yeast being added at different times if he's gotten to the point of controlling what goes into fermenters and knows where in the fermentation process they are.

but at the same time, it's easier to control things with less moving parts. So trying to add different yeast mid fermentation just seems to be asking for variation.

 

[skibb]

Several breweries within the NE-style dry hop under pressure, so my guess would be that they carb it at the same time as they do that.

As stated in my follow up post I was referring to adding a bottling/conditioning yeast strain and carbonating that way. They may carbonate completely with spundigs and high-pressure rated tanks - might have to take a tour to find that out.

I do the same kind of half-way carbonation at my brewery: "Capping a fermenter after dry-hopping while fermentation finishes (something I personally do) does end up providing close to 1.5 volumes of CO2 in my beer. I then cold crash and force carbonate."

 

[cegan09]

As stated in my follow up post I was referring to adding a bottling/conditioning yeast strain and carbonating that way. They may carbonate completely with spundigs and high-pressure rated tanks - might have to take a tour to find that out.

I do the same kind of half-way carbonation at my brewery: "Capping a fermenter after dry-hopping while fermentation finishes (something I personally do) does end up providing close to 1.5 volumes of CO2 in my beer. I then cold crash and force carbonate."

No tours at tree house. It's show up, get in line, buy your beer, and get out. However the brewery is within full view while inside. You'd have to know what you're looking for. View is generally this. Far right are the kettles cropped out, and far left is generally obstructed by the canning line.

New brewery opening soon too.

 

[TheFlyingSparge]

subscribed. This is by far one of the most interesting threads I've read on this forum. Lovinit.

 

[melville]

Took a gravity reading this a.m. (still under 48 hours of fermentation) and the 50:30:20 combo has brought things down from 1.068 to 1.022. Smells nice, I do get a bit of something saison-y in there when tasting it. First round of dry hops going in.

Another gravity reading (I swear I'm not normally like this, just curious how things are going). Now at 1.015 at just under 3 days so easily on target for 1.013 I think. One unusual aspect is that the trub is well over the spigot on the Speidel, that hasn't happened before. Smells fruity and tastes fruity (its galaxy, citra, and motueka, so yeah...), spicy but hop spicy, not yeast spice. Don't get that Saison-y thing now. Does seem a bit hot ABV-wise, but again that could be the hops.

 

[isomerization]

Another gravity reading (I swear I'm not normally like this, just curious how things are going). Now at 1.015 at just under 3 days so easily on target for 1.013 I think. One unusual aspect is that the trub is well over the spigot on the Speidel, that hasn't happened before. Smells fruity and tastes fruity (its galaxy, citra, and motueka, so yeah...), spicy but hop spicy, not yeast spice. Don't get that Saison-y thing now. Does seem a bit hot ABV-wise, but again that could be the hops.

Did you say what fermentation temp? Are you going to spund? And any banana notes from the WB-06?

 

[mosaicbrewer]

I have read most of this thread at this point. Has anyone considered that the T-58 may be added to the beer in small quantities to discourage people from propping up the yeast at home? I propped a bottle of everett a few years ago and it was awful. I could see using a blend of 05 and 04 or something to produce specific results, but this ratio conspiracy seems a little insane. I know people think there is some magic going on down there, but blending multiple dry yeast strains seems like a stretch.

 

[TheHairyHop]

it's far less of a stretch than throwing in T-58 to throw us off from propagating S-04 and one other strain. T-58 also doesn't have the best attenuation.

 

[Ruckusz28]

Today after work I'll be taking a gravity reading and a sample. It's been 4 days. With an OG of 1.062 it's probably finished and should be cleaned up. If all things are go, I'll rack to the dry hop keg, pressurize, and chill. I estimate transferring to the serving keg Friday and hitting my belly on Saturday.

For the record, here's my recipe. Yes - I know there are no flaked anythings.


Ball & Chain Pale Ale
Author: Mike Strasser
Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: American Pale Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 3.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 5 gallons

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.062
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV (standard): 6.28%
IBU (tinseth): 73.31
SRM (morey): 5.76

FERMENTABLES:
7 lb - German - Pilsner (84.8%)
0.75 lb - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (9.1%)
0.5 lb - Canadian - Honey Malt (6.1%)

HOPS:
0.5 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 10, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 29.87
0.5 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Aroma for 5 min, IBU: 4.17
2 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 170 °F, IBU: 14.98
1 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 10, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 170 °F, IBU: 10.7
1 oz - Simcoe, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.7, Use: Whirlpool for 20 min at 170 °F, IBU: 13.59
1 oz - Simcoe , Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
1 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
1 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 10, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days
2 oz - Simcoe , Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 3 days
1 oz - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 10, Use: Dry Hop for 3 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min
FULL VOLUME MASH - NO SPARGE

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 tsp - Calcium chloride , Time: 1 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
1 tsp - yeast nutrient, Time: 15 min, Type: Other, Use: Boil

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - English Ale Yeast S-04 (50% composition)
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 54 - 77 F
Fermentation Temp: 70 F (ambient first floor - carboy heater not working)
Additional Yeast: T56 (25% composition) w33 (25% composition)