Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[JohnConnor]

The 4 oz was the only dry hopping however. You'll be using less galaxy, but more dry hop overall. I'm sure it'll be great though


I just used DME to create a wort that was calculated via brewer's friend and, at a nice krausen when it smelled like yeast, I dumped it into the serving keg before transferring the finished beer on top.

I've been interested in try it. I am assuming you don't care about the gravity of the krausen beer to hit it perfectly? I am also assuming you manage the total pressure in the keg? It has to be relatively low amounts of yeast to get the krausen beer going. Do you think you have a bunch of hop crap in the final beer?

 

[JohnConnor]

Been lurking here for the last couples weeks and I've read this thread start to finish... what a trip! I've learned more in the last two weeks from reading this than I have in quite some time. Thanks to all that keep this thread going and experimenting.

So naturally I have some questions!

1) I'm about to brew a batch of this in the coming weeks (currently have a raspberry milkshake IPA Omnipollo spin off going in my fermenter). Does anyone have experience with melanoidin malt with this Julius/tree house chase? Thoughts? I was think of using it. Apparently, it is almost cheating for decoction mashing and improves head/foam, body, mouthfeel, breadiness. The tree house maltiness keeps me up at night with how they do it.

Grist would be:

2 row (75%)
carafoam (20%)
melanoidin (5%)

Rest of the recipe is same as what ya'll have been doing with mash temps, chemistry, etc. I'll probably force carb the first time around until I come up with a sound way to krausen with my setup.

2) Do you think TH Nate is doing shorter mash times to preserve some of the malt flavors to get that bready/malty backbone? I have 0 experience with short mash times, I've always done 60 with a 10-15 min mashout. I've REALLY tasted it on the most recent batch of Julius, Haze, and even Sap from a week or two ago.

3) I definitely have others that are not coming to mind at the moment....

I'm assuming they're using many LODO techniques to get the malt flavors you're talking about. I've started using a lot of those techniques and it's been pretty wild. My whole kitchen used to smell of malt during mashing. Now, you wouldn't know I was brewing. Kind of the same principles as hops. If you can smell it, you're losing it. Those who do practice LODO front to back, top to bottom, always talk about increased malt aromas and flavors. Lingering malt notes. A lot of what I get from TH. I haven't quite gotten there but I'll say it's better.

 

[TheHairyHop]

@lilbova3 has more experience than me, but it's basically not much difference than speisse. In reality, not much gravity has probably dropped between it being sterile wort and actively fermenting. I overcarbonated this time around, but I'll be trying to dial it in. I just released pressure until it was good. I don't have too much hop residue, because I have mesh filter around my transferring dipstick. I did get a bunch of yeast, however

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'm assuming they're using many LODO techniques to get the malt flavors you're talking about. I've started using a lot of those techniques and it's been pretty wild. My whole kitchen used to smell of malt during mashing. Now, you wouldn't know I was brewing. Kind of the same principles as hops. If you can smell it, you're losing it. Those who do practice LODO front to back, top to bottom, always talk about increased malt aromas and flavors. Lingering malt notes. A lot of what I get from TH. I haven't quite gotten there but I'll say it's better.

I would love to be implementing some LODO techniques in my IPAs, but I'm waiting until I switch to electric. I'll probably ask you a million questions

 

[couchsending]

Been lurking here for the last couples weeks and I've read this thread start to finish... what a trip! I've learned more in the last two weeks from reading this than I have in quite some time. Thanks to all that keep this thread going and experimenting.

So naturally I have some questions!

1) I'm about to brew a batch of this in the coming weeks (currently have a raspberry milkshake IPA Omnipollo spin off going in my fermenter). Does anyone have experience with melanoidin malt with this Julius/tree house chase? Thoughts? I was think of using it. Apparently, it is almost cheating for decoction mashing and improves head/foam, body, mouthfeel, breadiness. The tree house maltiness keeps me up at night with how they do it.

Grist would be:

2 row (75%)
carafoam (20%)
melanoidin (5%)

Rest of the recipe is same as what ya'll have been doing with mash temps, chemistry, etc. I'll probably force carb the first time around until I come up with a sound way to krausen with my setup.

2) Do you think TH Nate is doing shorter mash times to preserve some of the malt flavors to get that bready/malty backbone? I have 0 experience with short mash times, I've always done 60 with a 10-15 min mashout. I've REALLY tasted it on the most recent batch of Julius, Haze, and even Sap from a week or two ago.

3) I definitely have others that are not coming to mind at the moment....

I don't think "maltiness" is a result of mash time nor would I think they're using melanoidin, but maybe. There are a lot of process variables that can contribute more "maltiness" to a simple grain bill. I'm somewhat of a believer in the low O2 process in regards to mashing, at least trying to keep it as low O2 as possible by preboiling, underletting, etc. I'm a big fan of the 162* step for 30 minutes after sacchrification, I think it makes a huge difference in a lot of my beers. Better foam stability for sure but also a sweetness and body even in really dry beers that finish around 1 plato. Also trying to keep your boil off to below 10% will add more malt complexity.

You don't really need more than 10% carafoam. I would think most of the double IPAs don't have any character malt just based on their color, maybe a blend of Rahr 2 row and Pale. When you get into the Julius and lower beers there might be a touch of higher SRM malts to add color and a bit of complexity.

 

[TheHairyHop]

what does the 162* step do and why?

 

[JohnConnor]

I would love to be implementing some LODO techniques in my IPAs, but I'm waiting until I switch to electric. I'll probably ask you a million questions

Lots of things you can do pretty easily well before you upgrade. I'm still in a cooler. Like couch said, boil your water and cool to your mash temp. Underlet your mash as instead of pouring in/over the malt. Use antioxidants in your mash. Mash caps. Use Brewtan B if you're using any copper. All that is pretty easy and not overly expensive to get started. And you'll see some pretty big gains just doing that. Some of the other stuff you can implement like recirculating mash later when you upgrade. Spunding or krausening is big instead of force carbing.

 

[JohnConnor]

I don't think "maltiness" is a result of mash time nor would I think they're using melanoidin, but maybe. There are a lot of process variables that can contribute more "maltiness" to a simple grain bill. I'm somewhat of a believer in the low O2 process in regards to mashing, at least trying to keep it as low O2 as possible by preboiling, underletting, etc. I'm a big fan of the 162* step for 30 minutes after sacchrification, I think it makes a huge difference in a lot of my beers. Better foam stability for sure but also a sweetness and body even in really dry beers that finish around 1 plato. Also trying to keep your boil off to below 10% will add more malt complexity.

You don't really need more than 10% carafoam. I would think most of the double IPAs don't have any character malt just based on their color, maybe a blend of Rahr 2 row and Pale. When you get into the Julius and lower beers there might be a touch of higher SRM malts to add color and a bit of complexity.

I did my first step mash with the most recent batch. The wort was sweeter and fuller than with a single infusion... in my mind anyways. Hopefully I reap all those benefits. I pushed mine final step to 163 before mash out instead of 162. I can't remember where I read that... 1 degree probably isn't huge.

 

[JohnConnor]

what does the 162* step do and why?

That's your alpha step. Denature those sugars. They're supposed to be good for head stability and add body. Most people will mash in around 144 and bump up to 148ish. That's your beta. Some will have a step around 153 to activate both. Then step up to 162/163 for alpha. Then mash out for better lauter.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Lots of things you can do pretty easily well before you upgrade. I'm still in a cooler. Like couch said, boil your water and cool to your mash temp. Underlet your mash as instead of pouring in/over the malt. Use antioxidants in your mash. Mash caps. Use Brewtan B if you're using any copper. All that is pretty easy and not overly expensive to get started. And you'll see some pretty big gains just doing that. Some of the other stuff you can implement like recirculating mash later when you upgrade. Spunding or krausening is big instead of force carbing.

yea, it's just more of a one-step-at-a-time mindset that I'm going for. At the moment, most of my oxidation issues would be cold side (because IPAs), so that was a focus for a bit.
I still need to figure out why my closed transfers are rough. I think too much kettle break is making it into my fermenter and gumming up the filter. Most people who use the same method don't report the same issues. I'm using a 300 micron tube around my keg-fermenter's dip tube

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I don't think "maltiness" is a result of mash time nor would I think they're using melanoidin, but maybe. There are a lot of process variables that can contribute more "maltiness" to a simple grain bill. I'm somewhat of a believer in the low O2 process in regards to mashing, at least trying to keep it as low O2 as possible by preboiling, underletting, etc. I'm a big fan of the 162* step for 30 minutes after sacchrification, I think it makes a huge difference in a lot of my beers. Better foam stability for sure but also a sweetness and body even in really dry beers that finish around 1 plato. Also trying to keep your boil off to below 10% will add more malt complexity.

You don't really need more than 10% carafoam. I would think most of the double IPAs don't have any character malt just based on their color, maybe a blend of Rahr 2 row and Pale. When you get into the Julius and lower beers there might be a touch of higher SRM malts to add color and a bit of complexity.

Thanks! I have a grainfather so applying lodo techniques will take some research. I got the high carafoam from previous posts (I think @melville ? Was using it... apologies if I’m wrong). I’ll definitley try the 162* step in my mash next time around.

 

[couchsending]

Thanks! I have a grainfather so applying lodo techniques will take some research. I got the high carafoam from previous posts (I think @melville ? Was using it... apologies if I’m wrong). I’ll definitley try the 162* step in my mash next time around.

I too have a Grainfather and this is what I do... I don’t bother with the mash cap concept. You might be able to finagle a pie plate of some sort but I drew the line there.

I sometimes condition my malt, sometimes not. I’ve found with the Grainfather it increases the speed of the sparge which can crush efficiency. If the grainbill ha as decent amount of wheat or oats they tend to cancel each other out. Definitely don’t need rice hulls ever if you condition.

Preboil water. Cool with immersion chiller. Fill basket with grains and slowly drop into the water, stirring until blended welll.

The biggest issue with lowdo and the Grainfather is pulling the mash basket up and all the splashing when sparging. I rigged a bike hook to my ceiling and use a ratchet strap and slowly ratchet the grain basket up as I sparge to reduce splashing. You might be able to full volume mash but in theory the water to grist ratio wouldn’t be condusive to a full/soft beer.

I adjust my boil intensity down slightly and will keep the lid slightly on for a part of the boil to try to decrease evaporation. I live at 7000 feet though which presents its own set of issues with the boil.

I used NaMeta a few times but have just gone to Brewtan in the mash, not in the boil.

I don’t use the CFC anymore either for a few reasons.

 

[Rainy]

Preboil water. Cool with immersion chiller. Fill basket with grains and slowly drop into the water, stirring until blended welll.

How long do you preboil and how long do you wait before you start cooling the water?

You lead the cooled water from the immersion chiller to a different vessel so the CaCO3 stays at the bottom of the grainfather?

Also, how do you deal with the fact that the grainfather is not big enough to boil all the water you need for mashing and sparging?

Do you cool now with an immersion chiller?

 

[couchsending]

How long do you preboil and how long do you wait before you start cooling the water?

You lead the cooled water from the immersion chiller to a different vessel so the CaCO3 stays at the bottom of the grainfather?

Also, how do you deal with the fact that the grainfather is not big enough to boil all the water you need for mashing and sparging?

Do you cool now with an immersion chiller?

It depends...

Most of the time I’m building water from RO as my water is challenging to say the least. I bought the sparge water heater for the GF as well. If I’m in a hurry I split the strike between both as it takes half the time to heat to boiling, combine when it’s almost boiling, boil for 10, use the immersion to cool to strike temp immediately then dough in. That’s just to deaerate the RO water.

My well water is around 240 ppm Alkalinity with TDS around 650 so it kinda sucks. However I have used it in a few beers lately by doing the preboil method which essentially gets the alkalinity closer to 70 and then adjust with acid. Had a beer win the biggest category in the state comp last week using this method so it ended up working out Ok.

For that I have to preboil in a large stockpot and in my sparge water heater which doesn’t quite get me to total strike+sparge volume but I just top up sparge with some RO and adjust that sparge water pH to 5.4. I usually let it sit for at least 30 and decant. I don’t cool that before decanting, just let it sit. You should see how much sediment is left over!!

As for chilling the wort, yeah I’ve gone to an immersion. My ground water is always below 60 so I can chill in the Grainfather, let it sit, and get almost crystal clear wort into the FV. After taking apart the pump and what not multiple times when cleaning the Grainfather and seeing the amount of gunk that can build up (especially in the pipe) it dawned on me what the CFC probably looks like inside after 150 batches, so I stopped using it. I clean and recirculated with 140 PBW after every brew and rinsed/recirculated with 140 water and there would still be plenty of protein build up in the pipe and pump.

 

[JohnConnor]

yea, it's just more of a one-step-at-a-time mindset that I'm going for. At the moment, most of my oxidation issues would be cold side (because IPAs), so that was a focus for a bit.
I still need to figure out why my closed transfers are rough. I think too much kettle break is making it into my fermenter and gumming up the filter. Most people who use the same method don't report the same issues. I'm using a 300 micron tube around my keg-fermenter's dip tube

Yeah shoring up cold side is a must. Honestly, I've gone to a floating dip tube instead of a filter on the bottom of the dip tube. It seems to be working very well for me thus far. This next beer will be the biggest dry hop with it so we'll see how well it work.

 

[specharka]

It depends...

Most of the time I’m building water from RO as my water is challenging to say the least. I bought the sparge water heater for the GF as well. If I’m in a hurry I split the strike between both as it takes half the time to heat to boiling, combine when it’s almost boiling, boil for 10, use the immersion to cool to strike temp immediately then dough in. That’s just to deaerate the RO water.

My well water is around 240 ppm Alkalinity with TDS around 650 so it kinda sucks. However I have used it in a few beers lately by doing the preboil method which essentially gets the alkalinity closer to 70 and then adjust with acid. Had a beer win the biggest category in the state comp last week using this method so it ended up working out Ok.

For that I have to preboil in a large stockpot and in my sparge water heater which doesn’t quite get me to total strike+sparge volume but I just top up sparge with some RO and adjust that sparge water pH to 5.4. I usually let it sit for at least 30 and decant. I don’t cool that before decanting, just let it sit. You should see how much sediment is left over!!

As for chilling the wort, yeah I’ve gone to an immersion. My ground water is always below 60 so I can chill in the Grainfather, let it sit, and get almost crystal clear wort into the FV. After taking apart the pump and what not multiple times when cleaning the Grainfather and seeing the amount of gunk that can build up (especially in the pipe) it dawned on me what the CFC probably looks like inside after 150 batches, so I stopped using it. I clean and recirculated with 140 PBW after every brew and rinsed/recirculated with 140 water and there would still be plenty of protein build up in the pipe and pump.

I’ve got a GF as well and I’m looking to experiment with some LODO techniques. I don’t have an immersion chiller anymore, so I was wondering if you can achieve the same preboil dissolved oxygen levels with K-Meta. I’ve started building my water from RO as well, if that helps.

I already ferment in kegs and spund, but I think krausening the beer will dramatically improve the head retention, mouthfeel, and keep DO levels low for performing a closed transfer to my serving keg.

 

[couchsending]

I’ve got a GF as well and I’m looking to experiment with some LODO techniques. I don’t have an immersion chiller anymore, so I was wondering if you can achieve the same preboil dissolved oxygen levels with K-Meta. I’ve started building my water from RO as well, if that helps.

I already ferment in kegs and spund, but I think krausening the beer will dramatically improve the head retention, mouthfeel, and keep DO levels low for performing a closed transfer to my serving keg.

I’m not sure, I don’t have a DO meter so most of this is on faith. I’d worry about using too much of those antioxidants.. I went with NaMeta as I saw the added Na as a benefit.

 

[Hannabrew]

If you're not going to pre boil your water, then you should use the yeast deoxygenation method

 

[specharka]

If you're not going to pre boil your water, then you should use the yeast deoxygenation method

Just looked it up...it sounds super easy, but just to clarify the steps:
1) pitch all water and brewing salts to mash and sparge vessels
2) add corn sugar and bread yeast to liquor at a rate of 2 g/gal
3) wait 2 hrs for optimal oxygen uptake
4) brew as normal.

Am I missing something?

 

[couchsending]

I’d preboil and buy a stainless immersion chiller before I went the yeast scavenging method...

 

[JohnConnor]

I’ve got a GF as well and I’m looking to experiment with some LODO techniques. I don’t have an immersion chiller anymore, so I was wondering if you can achieve the same preboil dissolved oxygen levels with K-Meta. I’ve started building my water from RO as well, if that helps.

I already ferment in kegs and spund, but I think krausening the beer will dramatically improve the head retention, mouthfeel, and keep DO levels low for performing a closed transfer to my serving keg.

Be careful with adding a lot of antioxidants like KMeta or NaMeta. Too much can lead to sulfur like smells from your beer depending on the yeast you use. Dose to .09g/gal is the recommended amount. Honestly, I've stopped preboiling my water for now as it's kind of a pain in the ass with my system. I don't notice any real difference yet.

 

[Hannabrew]

Just looked it up...it sounds super easy, but just to clarify the steps:
1) pitch all water and brewing salts to mash and sparge vessels
2) add corn sugar and bread yeast to liquor at a rate of 2 g/gal
3) wait 2 hrs for optimal oxygen uptake
4) brew as normal.

Am I missing something?

I've never done it but that's what I understand the process to be. A lot of guys on the LowOx forums use it with success. Some have even stated with a cap on the water you can leave it overnight and still be at near 0 in the morning

 

[bierhaus15]

It would be nice to see some actual brite beer/ kegged DO measurements, as what I've seen and heard about are still significantly higher than what even a small brewery is able to achieve in brite beer. I've seen a lot of hoopla for achieving 1ppm, but that's still a LONG way off from the more typical 5-50 ppb. I know of a few popular breweries that won't package beer if the DO is >50ppb. And that's not considering TPO.

The only time I measured home brew DO was with a Pentair Haffmans Gehaltemeter and I got ~40 ppb... and the extent of my LowDo process is Brewtan B and careful kegging and force carbing.

 

[Chris-Naz]

yea, it's just more of a one-step-at-a-time mindset that I'm going for. At the moment, most of my oxidation issues would be cold side (because IPAs), so that was a focus for a bit.
I still need to figure out why my closed transfers are rough. I think too much kettle break is making it into my fermenter and gumming up the filter. Most people who use the same method don't report the same issues. I'm using a 300 micron tube around my keg-fermenter's dip tube

Hi HairyHop,
I ferment in kegs and had tried the 300 micron dip tube sleeve approach. I had some similar issues to you with poor transferability. My hypothesis was two-fold and not a dip tube length issue 1) needed to crash longer to settle more particulates, 2) I was spunding @ 5-8 psi during dry hopping so beer was slightly pressurized during transfer. If my receiving vessel was not also pressurized to the right level it caused churning in the dry hop keg that led to filter clog.
I switched to a clear beer draught system, keep my dry hop/ferment keg pressure below 5psi, make sure I’ve crashed for a minimum of 24h at 40F or 48h at 58F and I’ve had no issues with transfer or oxidation. I’m pleased with the results of this process but haven’t submitted my beers to competition since altering my process. Hope this helps.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As one data point, this is from Cloudwater earlier this year :

This beer was our most successful centrifuge run to date. 11ppb O2 in FV. 30-40ppb O2 during the run (carbonating inline before the centrifuge), and 11ppb O2 in Brite Beer Tank. Cell count dropped from 336x10^6 to 0x10^6.....As a result of centrifugation this beer tastes juicier than any DDH IPA we have ever made. Holy smokes. No burn, all the Citra.....Everyone will have a threshold they’re comfortable with, but as low as we can go is good. There’s extra pick up during canning, so we only start filling retail boxes with cans once shaken DO reads are as low as we can go that run. <50ppb is our target in can.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Hi HairyHop,
I ferment in kegs and had tried the 300 micron dip tube sleeve approach. I had some similar issues to you with poor transferability. My hypothesis was two-fold and not a dip tube length issue 1) needed to crash longer to settle more particulates, 2) I was spunding @ 5-8 psi during dry hopping so beer was slightly pressurized during transfer. If my receiving vessel was not also pressurized to the right level it caused churning in the dry hop keg that led to filter clog.
I switched to a clear beer draught system, keep my dry hop/ferment keg pressure below 5psi, make sure I’ve crashed for a minimum of 24h at 40F or 48h at 58F and I’ve had no issues with transfer or oxidation. I’m pleased with the results of this process but haven’t submitted my beers to competition since altering my process. Hope this helps.

I appreciate the input. I know that I've been a bit wary of cold crashing due to volume contraction pulling in air, but I guess in a corny keg, I shouldn't care. I'll be sure to read this again and pick up some tips

 

[Chris-Naz]

I appreciate the input. I know that I've been a bit wary of cold crashing due to volume contraction pulling in air, but I guess in a corny keg, I shouldn't care. I'll be sure to read this again and pick up some tips

Cheers!
Hey also check out the informative write up by the Brulosophy gents

http://brulosophy.com/2018/08/23/clear-beer-draught-system-product-review/

 

[Hannabrew]

It would be nice to see some actual brite beer/ kegged DO measurements, as what I've seen and heard about are still significantly higher than what even a small brewery is able to achieve in brite beer. I've seen a lot of hoopla for achieving 1ppm, but that's still a LONG way off from the more typical 5-50 ppb. I know of a few popular breweries that won't package beer if the DO is >50ppb. And that's not considering TPO.

The only time I measured home brew DO was with a Pentair Haffmans Gehaltemeter and I got ~40 ppb... and the extent of my LowDo process is Brewtan B and careful kegging and force carbing.

http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/uncategorized/packaging-canning-beer-home/

skip to the bottom if you don't want to read about the packaging process. To your point though, Bryan is at the forefront of LowO2 brewing so the rest of us which are only doing part of the process are likely nowhere near those results.

That said, I also am not shipping my beer across the world...I just want it to taste the same a few weeks after tapping which it never did prior to LowO2 brewing techniques.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

So last Wednesday, I made it to TH and picked up some Julius, Alter Ego, Doppelganger, Green, Ma, and Lights On. It was pretty slow, you could basically just walk up and order cans, so they opened the bar. I tried some Very Green and Super Chocolate on tap. Very nice beers.

Then, we went to Exhibit A in Framingham. Anyone ever been there? I had a few of their beers, and I was very impressed, especially by Fifteen, which is a Vic Secret and Ella DDH DIPA. However, what I was really blown away by was that Fifteen tasted to me like Very Green on steroids. Absolutely phenomenal beer. I never had any TH at Monson, but Exhibit A's Fifteen made me wonder if this is what Very Green would have tasted like back in the day.

 

[couchsending]

Just like to say thanks to all the folks that have contributed to this thread a ton since the beginning. This thread has pushed me to dive more into the technical and scientific aspects of brewing than I ever thought I would. It’s such a great source of info, idea sharing, and just overall stoke for the wormhole that superior hoppy brewing can be. I’m only 2 years in but probably close to 160 brews and so much of what I’ve learned has come from ideas and info shared through this thread.

Just won the state comp for IPA with something inspired by the knowledge shared/gained through this thread. There were only 40 entries but the other guys that medaled have made the top three at NHC for IPA so it felt pretty good. FWIW Pro Brewer judge said it was better than 90% of the commercial examples he’s had and smelled like opening a fresh bag of Galaxy on the brew deck.. I would actually not quite agree with that but it came out pretty well.

Just thought I’d share recipe and process with you guys since so many have shared their thoughts and insight.

(I’m brewing at 7000 feet so the IBUs and hop additions are somewhat screwy. I assume 65-70% utilization compared to sea level)

6g into the Fermenter

Imperial A30
70% Weyermann Barke Pilsner
20% Mecca Grade Pale
2% Honey Malt
8% Brewers Crystals (1lb)

15@130
45@152
20@162
No mash out

Brewtan B @ 10
Yeast Nutrient @ 10
1/2 tab whirlfloc @ 5

42 IBU Hop Shot @60
1oz Nelson @ 10
.5oz Nugget @ 5
2oz Nelson WP @ 175
1oz Bravo WP @ 175
1oz Galaxy WP @ 175

5.3 Mash PH
Pre Boil PH 5.4
Acidify @60 to 5.2
90 Minute Soft Boil
Acidify into FV to 5.05

Ferment at 66
Ramp to 70 at 1.020
Diacetyl rest for 3 days at 70 after FG
Test for VDKs

Drop to 55 with head pressure for two days.

Harvest as much yeast as possible

Dry Hop with 4oz Galaxy, 5oz Nelson

Rest for 5 days between 60 and 62

Crash to 40 for two days (under pressure)

Transfer to keg and lager at 32 for 7 days

Transfer to 2nd keg and Krausen with a Southern Hemisphere Pale Ale fermentation at 1.040.

Leave for a week then slowly cool to serving.

Total time was almost a month between brew day and bottling for the comp.

It’s now almost 4 weeks later and the aromatics have faded slightly but the haze is permanent. Mouthfeel is straight cream. Incredibly full and soft. Unfortunately I actually don’t know what the water profile is. I decided to use my water for this which is absolutely horrible for brewing pale beer. 240ppm alkalinity, more than 200 hardness, and 650 TDS. Other than that I don’t know the makeup (probably gonna send it in). I preboiled and decanted and assumed 20ish CA and 60ish Alkalinity. I added some CaCl to get to theoretical 50 CA and acid to get to correct PH which fell in line.

Drinking mine compared to some Trillium and HF cans I grabbed a few weeks ago when I was back. Mouthfeel is on point with HF but the HF still disappears mid pallet which mine doesn’t quite. (Been chasing that forever). I know that sounds crazy but I honestly think this beer is close to the mouthfeel I’ve been trying to achieve for almost two years. Soft and fluffy and light but not quite disappearing like it needs to.

Head retention is nuts. Can get about 1” of Foam above the rim. 1/8”-1/4” stays for almost the whole pour. Straight #Suarezpour

 

[JohnConnor]

Just like to say thanks to all the folks that have contributed to this thread a ton since the beginning. This thread has pushed me to dive more into the technical and scientific aspects of brewing than I ever thought I would. It’s such a great source of info, idea sharing, and just overall stoke for the wormhole that superior hoppy brewing can be. I’m only 2 years in but probably close to 160 brews and so much of what I’ve learned has come from ideas and info shared through this thread.

Just won the state comp for IPA with something inspired by the knowledge shared/gained through this thread. There were only 40 entries but the other guys that medaled have made the top three at NHC for IPA so it felt pretty good. FWIW Pro Brewer judge said it was better than 90% of the commercial examples he’s had and smelled like opening a fresh bag of Galaxy on the brew deck.. I would actually not quite agree with that but it came out pretty well.

Just thought I’d share recipe and process with you guys since so many have shared their thoughts and insight.

(I’m brewing at 7000 feet so the IBUs and hop additions are somewhat screwy. I assume 65-70% utilization compared to sea level)

6g into the Fermenter

Imperial A30
70% Weyermann Barke Pilsner
20% Mecca Grade Pale
2% Honey Malt
8% Brewers Crystals (1lb)

15@130
45@152
20@162
No mash out

Brewtan B @ 10
Yeast Nutrient @ 10
1/2 tab whirlfloc @ 5

42 IBU Hop Shot @60
1oz Nelson @ 10
.5oz Nugget @ 5
2oz Nelson WP @ 175
1oz Bravo WP @ 175
1oz Galaxy WP @ 175

5.3 Mash PH
Pre Boil PH 5.4
Acidify @60 to 5.2
90 Minute Soft Boil
Acidify into FV to 5.05

Ferment at 66
Ramp to 70 at 1.020
Diacetyl rest for 3 days at 70 after FG
Test for VDKs

Drop to 55 with head pressure for two days.

Harvest as much yeast as possible

Dry Hop with 4oz Galaxy, 5oz Nelson

Rest for 5 days between 60 and 62

Crash to 40 for two days (under pressure)

Transfer to keg and lager at 32 for 7 days

Transfer to 2nd keg and Krausen with a Southern Hemisphere Pale Ale fermentation at 1.040.

Leave for a week then slowly cool to serving.

Total time was almost a month between brew day and bottling for the comp.

It’s now almost 4 weeks later and the aromatics have faded slightly but the haze is permanent. Mouthfeel is straight cream. Incredibly full and soft. Unfortunately I actually don’t know what the water profile is. I decided to use my water for this which is absolutely horrible for brewing pale beer. 240ppm alkalinity, more than 200 hardness, and 650 TDS. Other than that I don’t know the makeup (probably gonna send it in). I preboiled and decanted and assumed 20ish CA and 60ish Alkalinity. I added some CaCl to get to theoretical 50 CA and acid to get to correct PH which fell in line.

Drinking mine compared to some Trillium and HF cans I grabbed a few weeks ago when I was back. Mouthfeel is on point with HF but the HF still disappears mid pallet which mine doesn’t quite. (Been chasing that forever). I know that sounds crazy but I honestly think this beer is close to the mouthfeel I’ve been trying to achieve for almost two years. Soft and fluffy and light but not quite disappearing like it needs to.

Head retention is nuts. Can get about 1” of Foam above the rim. 1/8”-1/4” stays for almost the whole pour. Straight #Suarezpour

Freaking beautiful pour! And congrats on the win! Man, my last brew day looked a lot like yours. First time doing a step mash. My pH meter was freaking out so I couldn't use it. That was kind of a hail mary so hopefully, it turns out (come on Bru n' water!!). You've got me excited! It is funny. On the surface, that looks like a lot of monkeying around. But in reality, it's not all that much more on a brew day. Or work on the back end.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Just like to say thanks to all the folks that have contributed to this thread a ton since the beginning. This thread has pushed me to dive more into the technical and scientific aspects of brewing than I ever thought I would. It’s such a great source of info, idea sharing, and just overall stoke for the wormhole that superior hoppy brewing can be. I’m only 2 years in but probably close to 160 brews and so much of what I’ve learned has come from ideas and info shared through this thread.

Just won the state comp for IPA with something inspired by the knowledge shared/gained through this thread. There were only 40 entries but the other guys that medaled have made the top three at NHC for IPA so it felt pretty good. FWIW Pro Brewer judge said it was better than 90% of the commercial examples he’s had and smelled like opening a fresh bag of Galaxy on the brew deck.. I would actually not quite agree with that but it came out pretty well.

Just thought I’d share recipe and process with you guys since so many have shared their thoughts and insight.

(I’m brewing at 7000 feet so the IBUs and hop additions are somewhat screwy. I assume 65-70% utilization compared to sea level)

6g into the Fermenter

Imperial A30
70% Weyermann Barke Pilsner
20% Mecca Grade Pale
2% Honey Malt
8% Brewers Crystals (1lb)

15@130
45@152
20@162
No mash out

Brewtan B @ 10
Yeast Nutrient @ 10
1/2 tab whirlfloc @ 5

42 IBU Hop Shot @60
1oz Nelson @ 10
.5oz Nugget @ 5
2oz Nelson WP @ 175
1oz Bravo WP @ 175
1oz Galaxy WP @ 175

5.3 Mash PH
Pre Boil PH 5.4
Acidify @60 to 5.2
90 Minute Soft Boil
Acidify into FV to 5.05

Ferment at 66
Ramp to 70 at 1.020
Diacetyl rest for 3 days at 70 after FG
Test for VDKs

Drop to 55 with head pressure for two days.

Harvest as much yeast as possible

Dry Hop with 4oz Galaxy, 5oz Nelson

Rest for 5 days between 60 and 62

Crash to 40 for two days (under pressure)

Transfer to keg and lager at 32 for 7 days

Transfer to 2nd keg and Krausen with a Southern Hemisphere Pale Ale fermentation at 1.040.

Leave for a week then slowly cool to serving.

Total time was almost a month between brew day and bottling for the comp.

It’s now almost 4 weeks later and the aromatics have faded slightly but the haze is permanent. Mouthfeel is straight cream. Incredibly full and soft. Unfortunately I actually don’t know what the water profile is. I decided to use my water for this which is absolutely horrible for brewing pale beer. 240ppm alkalinity, more than 200 hardness, and 650 TDS. Other than that I don’t know the makeup (probably gonna send it in). I preboiled and decanted and assumed 20ish CA and 60ish Alkalinity. I added some CaCl to get to theoretical 50 CA and acid to get to correct PH which fell in line.

Drinking mine compared to some Trillium and HF cans I grabbed a few weeks ago when I was back. Mouthfeel is on point with HF but the HF still disappears mid pallet which mine doesn’t quite. (Been chasing that forever). I know that sounds crazy but I honestly think this beer is close to the mouthfeel I’ve been trying to achieve for almost two years. Soft and fluffy and light but not quite disappearing like it needs to.

Head retention is nuts. Can get about 1” of Foam above the rim. 1/8”-1/4” stays for almost the whole pour. Straight #Suarezpour

looking good! Care to elaborate on the thought process behind your pH adjustments and any observed results?

 

[Hannabrew]

5.2 pH post boil is recommended when dry hopping

 

[JohnConnor]

yea, it's just more of a one-step-at-a-time mindset that I'm going for. At the moment, most of my oxidation issues would be cold side (because IPAs), so that was a focus for a bit.
I still need to figure out why my closed transfers are rough. I think too much kettle break is making it into my fermenter and gumming up the filter. Most people who use the same method don't report the same issues. I'm using a 300 micron tube around my keg-fermenter's dip tube

I'm looking to krausen my current beer. I want to go the same route as you and do a DME beer with CBC-1. I'm curious if you remember how long it took to be ready to pitch? I'm trying to figure out a ballpark start time.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'm looking to krausen my current beer. I want to go the same route as you and do a DME beer with CBC-1. I'm curious if you remember how long it took to be ready to pitch? I'm trying to figure out a ballpark start time.

I think it was 24-36 hours

 

[leesmith]

...Mouthfeel is on point with HF but the HF still disappears mid pallet which mine doesn’t quite. (Been chasing that forever)....
#Suarezpour

Couchsending,

Wish I could try a pint!

That disappearing you describe? I describe it as a front to middle of the tongue bitterness...runs right down the center of the palate. The fruitiness of hops hits softly on the sides of the tongue and the bitterness stops short of the back 3rd of the center of the palate and the finish opens up with pleasing dry malt/bready flavor. Some beers more than other....Edward exemplifies this...other higher hopped beers finish with a pleasant dry hop flavor.

I tried to describe it to a friend once like a pattern. Most breweries seem to have a target pattern....Treehouse, Trillium included. Picture a target on your palate. Flavors emanate out from the center; starting with a bullseye of bitterness, a ring of fruit flavors, a faint ring of maltiness usually. Different beers have larger bullseyes and rings than others...and this pattern can shift on the palate...but it always seems round. Hill's is not a round pattern. It has a different structure; distinct and layered. It's hard to articulate....but an hourglass comes close. Some of his beers more than others....it shifts also as to where it lands on the palate.

Sorry for the tangent.

 

[TheHairyHop]

5.2 pH post boil is recommended when dry hopping

It seems that the post suggested 5.2 during boil and 5.05 into the fermenter

 

[isomerization]

Just like to say thanks to all the folks that have contributed to this thread a ton since the beginning. This thread has pushed me to dive more into the technical and scientific aspects of brewing than I ever thought I would. It’s such a great source of info, idea sharing, and just overall stoke for the wormhole that superior hoppy brewing can be. I’m only 2 years in but probably close to 160 brews and so much of what I’ve learned has come from ideas and info shared through this thread.

Just won the state comp for IPA with something inspired by the knowledge shared/gained through this thread. There were only 40 entries but the other guys that medaled have made the top three at NHC for IPA so it felt pretty good. FWIW Pro Brewer judge said it was better than 90% of the commercial examples he’s had and smelled like opening a fresh bag of Galaxy on the brew deck.. I would actually not quite agree with that but it came out pretty well.

Just thought I’d share recipe and process with you guys since so many have shared their thoughts and insight.

(I’m brewing at 7000 feet so the IBUs and hop additions are somewhat screwy. I assume 65-70% utilization compared to sea level)

6g into the Fermenter

Imperial A30
70% Weyermann Barke Pilsner
20% Mecca Grade Pale
2% Honey Malt
8% Brewers Crystals (1lb)

15@130
45@152
20@162
No mash out

Brewtan B @ 10
Yeast Nutrient @ 10
1/2 tab whirlfloc @ 5

42 IBU Hop Shot @60
1oz Nelson @ 10
.5oz Nugget @ 5
2oz Nelson WP @ 175
1oz Bravo WP @ 175
1oz Galaxy WP @ 175

5.3 Mash PH
Pre Boil PH 5.4
Acidify @60 to 5.2
90 Minute Soft Boil
Acidify into FV to 5.05

Ferment at 66
Ramp to 70 at 1.020
Diacetyl rest for 3 days at 70 after FG
Test for VDKs

Drop to 55 with head pressure for two days.

Harvest as much yeast as possible

Dry Hop with 4oz Galaxy, 5oz Nelson

Rest for 5 days between 60 and 62

Crash to 40 for two days (under pressure)

Transfer to keg and lager at 32 for 7 days

Transfer to 2nd keg and Krausen with a Southern Hemisphere Pale Ale fermentation at 1.040.

Leave for a week then slowly cool to serving.

Total time was almost a month between brew day and bottling for the comp.

It’s now almost 4 weeks later and the aromatics have faded slightly but the haze is permanent. Mouthfeel is straight cream. Incredibly full and soft. Unfortunately I actually don’t know what the water profile is. I decided to use my water for this which is absolutely horrible for brewing pale beer. 240ppm alkalinity, more than 200 hardness, and 650 TDS. Other than that I don’t know the makeup (probably gonna send it in). I preboiled and decanted and assumed 20ish CA and 60ish Alkalinity. I added some CaCl to get to theoretical 50 CA and acid to get to correct PH which fell in line.

Drinking mine compared to some Trillium and HF cans I grabbed a few weeks ago when I was back. Mouthfeel is on point with HF but the HF still disappears mid pallet which mine doesn’t quite. (Been chasing that forever). I know that sounds crazy but I honestly think this beer is close to the mouthfeel I’ve been trying to achieve for almost two years. Soft and fluffy and light but not quite disappearing like it needs to.

Head retention is nuts. Can get about 1” of Foam above the rim. 1/8”-1/4” stays for almost the whole pour. Straight #Suarezpour

So your water was farely soft then? Also OG/FG?

 

[stickyfinger]

Couchsending,

Wish I could try a pint!

That disappearing you describe? I describe it as a front to middle of the tongue bitterness...runs right down the center of the palate. The fruitiness of hops hits softly on the sides of the tongue and the bitterness stops short of the back 3rd of the center of the palate and the finish opens up with pleasing dry malt/bready flavor. Some beers more than other....Edward exemplifies this...other higher hopped beers finish with a pleasant dry hop flavor.

I tried to describe it to a friend once like a pattern. Most breweries seem to have a target pattern....Treehouse, Trillium included. Picture a target on your palate. Flavors emanate out from the center; starting with a bullseye of bitterness, a ring of fruit flavors, a faint ring of maltiness usually. Different beers have larger bullseyes and rings than others...and this pattern can shift on the palate...but it always seems round. Hill's is not a round pattern. It has a different structure; distinct and layered. It's hard to articulate....but an hourglass comes close. Some of his beers more than others....it shifts also as to where it lands on the palate.

Sorry for the tangent.

i call BS. haha

 

[couchsending]

It seems that the post suggested 5.2 during boil and 5.05 into the fermenter

For multiple reasons but again it’s not like I’m brewing the same exact beer over and over and over and onjy tweaking one variable so I can never give you a definitive answer as to what exactly worked and what didn’t.

The goal with reducing the boil PH to 5.2 at 60 is it’s role in alpha utilization and protein coagulation. Lower the pH in theory lower the bitterness extracted. Lowering close to 5.0 into the FV was just based on what Henry from Monkish said during his interview on CB&B and also what I’ve seen on a few brew logs of some of the greatest hoppy beers.

The funny thing is I literally did everything possible to make this beer clear other than fine it and it’s still bordering on opaque, which I wasn’t actually shooting for. Totally permanent haze a month plus in the keg.

No high protein malts of any kind
No huge WP
Wort was crystal clear going into FV
No DH during fermentation
Lagered for a week at 32 before carbonating in another vessel.

Yeah I bet water was relatively soft. I have no idea the CL, MG, NA, So4 content of my water to begin with but preboiling should essentially bring Ca down to 20. Looking at my notes I added CaCl and CaSo4 equally to get to an estimated 70ppm Ca. I assumed 60ppm bicarbonate and calculated my acid addition off that and came pretty close.