Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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couchsending said:
Added within 10 minutes of the dextrose? I would assume yeast nutrient or some finings of some sort. Interesting that they’re adding extract in what seems to be end of boil. I’m sure they can get extract of any variety they use and I know in really large systems the yield increase in extract vs. pellets can be substantial.
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Like I said. I don’t know at which point of the boil this was. And I cannot confirm that these cans were extract it was just what it looked like to me. I don’t want to make any guarantees! The only thing I’m sure of was the 2 bags of dextrose being added. Again, we don’t know which beer was being brewed. Just trying to get any info out there.
 
Korx said:
Like I said. I don’t know at which point of the boil this was. And I cannot confirm that these cans were extract it was just what it looked like to me. I don’t want to make any guarantees! The only thing I’m sure of was the 2 bags of dextrose being added. Again, we don’t know which beer was being brewed. Just trying to get any info out there.
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If we assume dextrose=corn sugar for Nate, then this has to be Bright — based on that recent tweet. Also in that article/ad for extracts, Nate says he isn't afraid to use them later in the boil for flavor contributions.
 
Korx said:
Like I said. I don’t know at which point of the boil this was. And I cannot confirm that these cans were extract it was just what it looked like to me. I don’t want to make any guarantees! The only thing I’m sure of was the 2 bags of dextrose being added. Again, we don’t know which beer was being brewed. Just trying to get any info out there.
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I stopped by at TH today as well, also saw the two bags get opened and prepared to be emptied into the kettle. Didn't actually seen them get dumped in. The bags said "Ingredion" on them, which I had never heard of.

I assumed at the time that it was some supplier or shipper of malt/hops that commercial guys use and isn't available to us homebrewers. Later today, I googled it. It seems like an international giant company that makes just ingredients for the food and beverage industry. They sell dextrose in liquid and solid, but they also sell something called "brewer's crystals" which is apparently a solid form "high maltose corn syrup." I've attached the spec sheet. Ingredion markets it as a cheaper alternative to malt extract to boost gravity. I have to admit, I saw this first and didn't realize Ingredion also sells dextrose, which caused a moment of never-meet-your-heroes disillusionment.

Of course, in my mind I can't be sure if it's one or the other.

However, I am having one of the Doppelgängers I picked up now. And it is phenomenal.
 

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Surly uses Brewers Crystals in Abrasive I believe, or at least used to. I would bet it’s pretty widely used. There are so many ingredients and options pro brewers have access to that are not widely available on the homebrew level. Enzymes and all sorts of Hop derivative products just to name a few.
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
I stopped by at TH today as well, also saw the two bags get opened and prepared to be emptied into the kettle. Didn't actually seen them get dumped in. The bags said "Ingredion" on them, which I had never heard of.

I assumed at the time that it was some supplier or shipper of malt/hops that commercial guys use and isn't available to us homebrewers. Later today, I googled it. It seems like an international giant company that makes just ingredients for the food and beverage industry. They sell dextrose in liquid and solid, but they also sell something called "brewer's crystals" which is apparently a solid form "high maltose corn syrup." I've attached the spec sheet. Ingredion markets it as a cheaper alternative to malt extract to boost gravity. I have to admit, I saw this first and didn't realize Ingredion also sells dextrose, which caused a moment of never-meet-your-heroes disillusionment.

Of course, in my mind I can't be sure if it's one or the other.

However, I am having one of the Doppelgängers I picked up now. And it is phenomenal.
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Sounds like we must’ve just missed each other! From what I could make out on the bags they said “cerelose 020010” which you can sort of make out in this picture. What I could read in person was the smaller lettering beneath saying “dextrose monohydrate”. Just food for thought.
 

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So this stuff from Ingredion:
"CERELOSE® Dextrose 02001090 is a general purpose crystalline monohydrate dextrose suitable for most food, beverage, and industrial uses."
 
Korx said:
Sounds like we must’ve just missed each other! From what I could make out on the bags they said “cerelose 020010” which you can sort of make out in this picture. What I could read in person was the smaller lettering beneath saying “dextrose monohydrate”. Just food for thought.
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You know what, I looked again at the picture I took too and I can make out "elose 0200." You're absolutely right, it's dextrose. So funny that the dextrose thing had just come up recently on twitter. I wonder if they're going to have Bright canned 18-21 days from now!
 
couchsending said:
Surly uses Brewers Crystals in Abrasive I believe, or at least used to. I would bet it’s pretty widely used. There are so many ingredients and options pro brewers have access to that are not widely available on the homebrew level. Enzymes and all sorts of Hop derivative products just to name a few.
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Huh, I didn't know Surly used them. Never had Abrasive, but i am a big fan of Todd the Axe Man.
 
So after having the Doppelgänger yesterday, I feel like they're used much more T-58 than the 6% I used on my last attempt. I got that spice flavor quite a bit, although I really didn't think pepper when I tasted it. But it was definitely there in both the aroma and the flavor. I have had saisons with a similar character, which maybe makes some sense. Couldn't taste any banana at all, although I do remember getting some banana in a Haze I had a few months ago. No clove.

@melville, I know you've been using like 10% T-58 and were thinking about bumping it up even more. Any idea what you're planning on bumping it up to? I've been considering maybe 10-15% for my next attempt.
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
So after having the Doppelgänger yesterday, I feel like they're used much more T-58 than the 6% I used on my last attempt. I got that spice flavor quite a bit, although I really didn't think pepper when I tasted it. But it was definitely there in both the aroma and the flavor. I have had saisons with a similar character, which maybe makes some sense. Couldn't taste any banana at all, although I do remember getting some banana in a Haze I had a few months ago. No clove.

@melville, I know you've been using like 10% T-58 and were thinking about bumping it up even more. Any idea what you're planning on bumping it up to? I've been considering maybe 10-15% for my next attempt.
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I'll probably go 13-15%. Of the three, T-58 is the fastest to take off from what I remember. IMO very noticeable in Green. Interesting: found some Mystic DDH Amperage which is NE(Belgian)IPA. Very similar spice quality but minus the subtlety, which sort of blows the whole thing. The spice you/I want is just above the "hmm..." level but below the "a-ha" level. It's a fine line.
 
IMG_1189.jpg

Took my first full pour last night from the batch with KCl — very soft, very full, so I'm pretty happy there. I need to dial the crystal up a hair though in comparison and to my personal taste. This was primarily Vic Secret with a bit of Amarillo and Simcoe. (Split rahr 2-row with pearl, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 2.5 % c20, 5% Vienna) FG 1.015 | 7.1% abv | 75 IBU
 
Sawhorse-Josh said:
Hi all, been following this thread for a while. fascinating!

any chance that this potassium based extract is responsible for the very high levels of K in alter ego? instead of KCl.

https://www.hopsteiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/SS_08_09_Pike.pdf
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Super interesting. Man, I tell ya, the kinds of stuff that's available now is so different from 5-10 years ago. Or maybe I was just oblivious back then haha.

Yeah, like @melville said, I think it was the combination of low Ca and high K that led down this KCl path. But... I've begun to wonder. The K in those BYO Alter Ego mineral results was so high, even using KCl additions for Cl. It's conceivable that it could be both KCl -and- the PIKE extracts. Just thinking out loud.
 
melville said:
View attachment 551456
Took my first full pour last night from the batch with KCl — very soft, very full, so I'm pretty happy there. I need to dial the crystal up a hair though in comparison and to my personal taste. This was primarily Vic Secret with a bit of Amarillo and Simcoe. (Split rahr 2-row with pearl, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 2.5 % c20, 5% Vienna) FG 1.015 | 7.1% abv | 75 IBU
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Awesome! Looks great. Was this 88/2/10? How was the spice on this one?
 
Sawhorse-Josh said:
Hi all, been following this thread for a while. fascinating!

any chance that this potassium based extract is responsible for the very high levels of K in alter ego? instead of KCl.

https://www.hopsteiner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/SS_08_09_Pike.pdf
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Was on the Hopsteiner site last night and saw that. That extract seems more appropriate for late additions. What I've read about regular CO2 extract is that it's not that great for anything other than early additions but in the Mitch Steele IPA book the Hill Farmstead recipe for James calls for CO2 Centennial extract at 10???
 
melville said:
View attachment 551456
Took my first full pour last night from the batch with KCl — very soft, very full, so I'm pretty happy there. I need to dial the crystal up a hair though in comparison and to my personal taste. This was primarily Vic Secret with a bit of Amarillo and Simcoe. (Split rahr 2-row with pearl, 20% carafoam, 10% flaked oats, 2.5 % c20, 5% Vienna) FG 1.015 | 7.1% abv | 75 IBU
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That looks well on it! How did you carb this one? How much does it stink?
 
melville said:
Very nice. How was the ... mouthfeelz?
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So I did a side by side with mine and Doppelganger today. To my palate and those of two other NEIPA lovers the mouthfeels of the two beers were just about indistinguishable. I wouldn't really describe either one of them as "fluffy" though.

Mine was totally devoid of any spice, that seemed to be pretty prominent to me today in the Doppelganger. It was also more tart and just slightly darker. Also a little less hazy. The orange character was there in both beers I thought, but more in the forefront in mine, probably because of the lack of the spice character.
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
So I did a side by side with mine and Doppelganger today. To my palate and those of two other NEIPA lovers the mouthfeels of the two beers were just about indistinguishable. I wouldn't really describe either one of them as "fluffy" though.

Mine was totally devoid of any spice, that seemed to be pretty prominent to me today in the Doppelganger. It was also more tart and just slightly darker. Also a little less hazy. The orange character was there in both beers I thought, but more in the forefront in mine, probably because of the lack of the spice character.
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I avoid Munich (and honey) malt now out of fear of my SRM getting too dark on me. How does the sweetness compare?
 
melville said:
I avoid Munich (and honey) malt now out of fear of my SRM getting too dark on me. How does the sweetness compare?
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The sweetness was pretty close as far as I could tell, but the tartness was different enough that it could skew my perception of it. I suppose a lot of things were different enough in the flavor that could cause that skew, that spice/savory flavor being one of them. One of the guys I did the side by side with said that mine tasted like a toned down version of Doppelganger. What was interesting though is that even though my mash pH was super high, the perceived bitterness on the two beers was actually fairly close I thought. Not sure what to do with that information though.

I hear you on the Munich/honey malt. I dropped honey malt in my NEIPAs a while back because I feel like even at 2% the flavor gets somewhat cloying, at least to my palate and in the context of my process. I've been considering dropping the Munich for my next attempt to get the SRM back down, although I might be able to get away with keeping it and using pils malt for a large portion of the base.
 
ThePaleAleIndian said:
The sweetness was pretty close as far as I could tell, but the tartness was different enough that it could skew my perception of it. I suppose a lot of things were different enough in the flavor that could cause that skew, that spice/savory flavor being one of them. One of the guys I did the side by side with said that mine tasted like a toned down version of Doppelganger. What was interesting though is that even though my mash pH was super high, the perceived bitterness on the two beers was actually fairly close I thought. Not sure what to do with that information though.

I hear you on the Munich/honey malt. I dropped honey malt in my NEIPAs a while back because I feel like even at 2% the flavor gets somewhat cloying, at least to my palate and in the context of my process. I've been considering dropping the Munich for my next attempt to get the SRM back down, although I might be able to get away with keeping it and using pils malt for a large portion of the base.
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I know you’ve posted bits and pieces here and there. But do you mind sharing this recipe? Water additions?
 
Korx said:
I know you’ve posted bits and pieces here and there. But do you mind sharing this recipe? Water additions?
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Yeah, these posts get buried so fast. The recipe/tasting notes were post #1472. That post includes everything but the gram salt additions, which are in post #1362 for this same batch.
 
sag1189 said:
Just worth noting KCl is commonly used in water softeners instead of NaCl to keep sodium down.
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You know, I'm kicking myself. I was just over there on Wednesday and I forgot to do something I've been meaning to do for a while - get a sample to send off to Ward Labs from their water fountain.

Of course, the results would need to be taken with a grain of salt, because ultimately we don't know what/how much their brewing liquor has in common with their local water. Or their water fountain for that matter. But I would be interested to know if there are any common elements or clues or whatever from their water fountain compared to the BYO Alter Ego mineral results.
 
KLITE said:
How does the mouthfeel compare to other previous attempts with the cbc?
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Mouthfeel is great, very soft, very full, compares quite nicely in this regard to TH that I have on hand. This and the previous batch were forced carbed and have been my softest yet, but as I said with the last one, probably not because of forced carb, but because I switched to using more NaCl/KCl. They might be softer still naturally carbed, but force carb doesn't appear to be holding them back any.
 
melville said:
, but because I switched to using more NaCl/KCl. .
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has anyone tried using elevated levels of Na in these beers? Definitely can add body and fullness, and does have a tendency to sort of round out flavors and make them a bit more cohesive. Now as to which half (Na vs Cl) is the body, and which is the flavor rounding, i have no idea. Maybe a bit of both? But it could be worth trying it out. Anybody gone there yet?
 
SanPancho said:
has anyone tried using elevated levels of Na in these beers? Definitely can add body and fullness, and does have a tendency to sort of round out flavors and make them a bit more cohesive. Now as to which half (Na vs Cl) is the body, and which is the flavor rounding, i have no idea. Maybe a bit of both? But it could be worth trying it out. Anybody gone there yet?
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On John Palmer's website he says that sodium rounds out beer flavor and accentuates malt sweetness in the 70-150 ppm range, but can induce a harsh bitterness when combined with sulfate. Also says Chloride accentuates malt and "fullness."

I'm really curious about what K does. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of literature about that. For instance if one were to use those PIKE hop extracts would the resulting beer be similar to one using KCl? I don't know.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/understanding-the-mash-ph/reading-a-water-report
 
now is it just me or do palmer's descriptions for Na and Cl seem kinda similar....both are said to enhance maltiness and fullness. just seems odd to me. but maybe thats why we put salt in everything. i often go 100ppm in dark beers.

id love to test them against each other, but the issue is that im unaware of a way to add Na without adding more chloride, or without changing the pH by using soda.

not sure how you could split batch that one...
 
SanPancho said:
now is it just me or do palmer's descriptions for Na and Cl seem kinda similar....both are said to enhance maltiness and fullness. just seems odd to me. but maybe thats why we put salt in everything. i often go 100ppm in dark beers.

id love to test them against each other, but the issue is that im unaware of a way to add Na without adding more chloride, or without changing the pH by using soda.

not sure how you could split batch that one...
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Yeah, I guess they do seem similar. I wonder if it's because these more off-the-beaten-path salts hadn't been experimented with so much when he wrote that first edition. Not sure if he has more/different info in his newer books.

As far as adding sodium without adding chloride, a while back I looked into adding sulfate without adding calcium, along the lines of what we're trying in this thread. Came up with food grade sodium sulfate:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...9DFgQFggfMAA&usg=AOvVaw07-zHpYRV4zrH7PafHG0tC

Hopefully the link works. This would be a way to add sodium without adding chloride as well. Anyway, I decided this wasn't something I was ready to experiment with just yet, but if you do I'd be very interested to know the results!
 
I'd be a bit scared to use it considering sodium and sulfates are supposed to have harsh results. And i cant really think of a beer i'd want high sulfates and high sodium in at same time.
 
SanPancho said:
I'd be a bit scared to use it considering sodium and sulfates are supposed to have harsh results. And i cant really think of a beer i'd want high sulfates and high sodium in at same time.
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Yeah, I mean, this is why I decided not to use it for now too. But I think my case was a little different in that I was after the sulfate and not the sodium. If i wanted to get sodium with no chloride and wanted to use this, I would add some of this up to maybe 40-50 ppm Na and then supplement with gypsum for however much sulfate you want. May or may not still be risky as far as harshness, I don't know.

But I think the reality of it is that if you want sodium without the chloride your options are limited. There is sodium sulfate, but you might have problems with harshness. There is sodium bicarbonate, but you would need to adjust your pH with acid (doable). Then you get into things like sodium citrate, which are even less flavor neutral I imagine. Past that and you get into stuff that's hard to pronounce.

However... there is sodium phosphate, Na3PO4. Phosphates are naturally occurring in malt, which is why there seem to be a lot of people who recommend phosphoric acid for mash pH adjustments. That might be a decent way to go. I found this:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oAeQQFggcMAA&usg=AOvVaw3YI8-MfqqN0uFLdCb1uIBo

So my disclaimer is that I've never used it. But I will say that I don't have any reservations about the phosphate going along for the ride with however much sodium I would want to add. I would definitely try Na3PO4 if I wanted to get sodium without adding chloride.
 
Lots of posts on this one thread and it been fun to read, although i admit to skipping a page every now and then. Is there a post # already, or can someone create the most likely of processes, water profile and ingredients that TH may use in their line of beers? I’m use there are a lot of posts that HBT members can agree to, but the results of those findings become lost in this huge thread. Thanks in advance.
 
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