Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[NJGeorge]

We know they insisted on underpitching s04 on the TG collab, I believe it’s known they use us05 in their bright beers, it’s been said people have seen them pitching bricks of dry yeast, people have said Nate used dry yeast in his homebrew days, multiple dna tests show s04 like results, their core beers have characteristics of s04...everything points to s04 doing the heavy lifting. Nothing points against. So why would we conclude they aren’t using s04???

Not concluding but just thinking outside the box. We know that flavor is not coming just from just s04. At least I think that. Yes maybe it could be one of the yeast but it’s not what is contributing to that TH flavor. Again unless it’s a specific malt or hop or a combination of all. I think the focus should be on a yeast that produces that house flavor. Then go from there. It would be interesting to test one of their beers that uses a clean ale yeast. That would put a lot of this to rest.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Great point. I’ve tried to see what other yeasts are similar on the genetic tree to S04, T58, and WB06 and have been tested in this thread, but I’m having trouble finding the list. @isomerization and @Clyde McCoy do you happen to have lists of other yeasts that you’ve tested? You both have been the all stars in this yeast search.

*Edit* post #3325 has all of @isomerization tested yeasts, but he has admitted some may have been contaminated, including WLP644. I still don’t know of any others @Clyde McCoy has tested or if there’s a database we (as in anyone) can access to check the TH yeasts against.

Based on the heavy lifting from @isomerization , I only tested Fermentis strains. S-04, T-58, WB-06, US-05, S-33, K-97. I also tested Lalvin 71B.

S-04 and T-58 showed identical banding profiles to TH isolates. I'm less certain about WB-06. Yes, 2020 cans (generously provided by members here).

@suregork is right to point out the “very similar interdelta fingerprints” of other strains.

Still, it would strike me as quite a coincidence that two different Fermentis strains just happen to match TH isolates.

I will probably do more testing soon.

 

[isomerization]

Great point. I’ve tried to see what other yeasts are similar on the genetic tree to S04, T58, and WB06 and have been tested in this thread, but I’m having trouble finding the list. @isomerization and @Clyde McCoy do you happen to have lists of other yeasts that you’ve tested? You both have been the all stars in this yeast search.

*Edit* post #3325 has all of @isomerization tested yeasts, but he has admitted some may have been contaminated, including WLP644. I still don’t know of any others @Clyde McCoy has tested or if there’s a database we (as in anyone) can access to check the TH yeasts against.

Just to be clear, no contamination was suspected with the any of the yeasts other than the WLP644 strain. All of the dry yeasts, WL and Wyeast strains were from unopened packages. I did not test different colonies though, so (remote) possibility remains that the colony I choose was not representative of the strain.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

FWIW I had King Sue from TG lately and it definitely is reminiscent of S04 and even somewhat similar in aroma to TH.... which is where the blend comes in at TH that sets them apart from other breweries using S04.

ALSO... I liked King Sue so much I looked for a clone recipe, but did not find one. What I did find is that TG reports using S04 (as we already suspected), but other brewers in the threads said that the hallmark "twang" of S04 is less present in King Sue...which it is. Multiple have said that 1st generation S04 tends to be heaviest in twang. So... remember those stir plates in previous TH pictures? Maybe they aren't pitching fresh dry S04, but pitching a subsequent generation (using small tanks to prop up from a dry pitch and using dry forms of the other strains. I'm no commercial brewer so logistically I can't totally speculate how this is done based on their early pictures other than the starters in the very early pic.

I did a split batch a long time ago of LAIII and S04 that I made a starter with.... Little to no twang. Keep in mind it was a split batch but still you get the idea.

 

[MrPowers]

FWIW I had King Sue from TG lately and it definitely is reminiscent of S04 and even somewhat similar in aroma to TH.... which is where the blend comes in at TH that sets them apart from other breweries using S04.

ALSO... I liked King Sue so much I looked for a clone recipe, but did not find one. What I did find is that TG reports using S04 (as we already suspected), but other brewers in the threads said that the hallmark "twang" of S04 is less present in King Sue...which it is. Multiple have said that 1st generation S04 tends to be heaviest in twang. So... remember those stir plates in previous TH pictures? Maybe they aren't pitching fresh dry S04, but pitching a subsequent generation (using small tanks to prop up from a dry pitch and using dry forms of the other strains. I'm no commercial brewer so logistically I can't totally speculate how this is done based on their early pictures other than the starters in the very early pic.

I did a split batch a long time ago of LAIII and S04 that I made a starter with.... Little to no twang. Keep in mind it was a split batch but still you get the idea.

I have done S04 starters in the past and have had exactly the same experience. It really cuts down on the twang. It would not surprise me at all if TH is fermenting separate batches for blending and then repitching (or top-cropping/harvesting before adding secondary strains).

 

[Clyde McCoy]

First new gels in a while, looks like Very Green contains the same minor strains as Julius/jjjuliusss. Still trying to get better resolution with potential WB-06 and F-2 strains. Not screening the small green colonies on the WLN plates, they always match S-04's profile.

 

[Lakeside_Brewer5]

First new gels in a while, looks like Very Green contains the same minor strains as Julius/jjjuliusss. Still trying to get better resolution with potential WB-06 and F-2 strains. Not screening the small green colonies on the WLN plates, they always match S-04's profile.

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Appreciate you continuing this work @Clyde McCoy ! Do you or anyone have some theories as to what yeast blend/pitch schedule may produce what we're seeing with the yeasts? For example, S04 flocs the best, so it makes sense the dregs of fresh cans are mostly that, but if T58 is pitched late or at dry hop, wouldn't it be most of what's left in suspension, therefore meaning we should see more of it making it into cans?

 

[couchsending]

Interesting MBAA podcast today on killer yeast and diastaticus strains... said that CBC-1, even though it’s killer, didn’t have a significant affect on most diastaticus strains. However “other” killer strains err more effective on preventing diastaticus overattenuation.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

@suregork made some good points about testing WLP540, WLP570 and WLP644. If anyone has these lying around PM me and I'll test them

 

[Bizkit]

Hi there long time lurker... Been following this for years... plenty of brews under my belt... I believe that s-04 is the yeast being used along with some techniques such as under pitching and sealed fermenters for natural carbonation. I am suspicious that there are also some enzymes at play. I don't see s-04 or t-58 getting down to 1.014 without some assistance even at lower mash temps. Since the both attenuate to about 75%. Cant find the attenuation profile for F2. so that maybe part of it. I did see written on the dry erase board back in Monson Bioglucanase TX while this isn't an enzyme used for conversion it does show that Nate is using enzymes in his process. Who is to say they aren't being used elsewhere along the process?

 

[StinkyBeer]

Dry hopping during active fermentation will cause hop creep and a higher level of apparent attenuation.

 

[NJGeorge]

FWIW I had King Sue from TG lately and it definitely is reminiscent of S04 and even somewhat similar in aroma to TH.... which is where the blend comes in at TH that sets them apart from other breweries using S04.

ALSO... I liked King Sue so much I looked for a clone recipe, but did not find one. What I did find is that TG reports using S04 (as we already suspected), but other brewers in the threads said that the hallmark "twang" of S04 is less present in King Sue...which it is. Multiple have said that 1st generation S04 tends to be heaviest in twang. So... remember those stir plates in previous TH pictures? Maybe they aren't pitching fresh dry S04, but pitching a subsequent generation (using small tanks to prop up from a dry pitch and using dry forms of the other strains. I'm no commercial brewer so logistically I can't totally speculate how this is done based on their early pictures other than the starters in the very early pic.

I did a split batch a long time ago of LAIII and S04 that I made a starter with.... Little to no twang. Keep in mind it was a split batch but still you get the idea.

There's a TG thread on this forum and people in there are saying that the KS uses 007 and not s04 FWIW.

 

[NJGeorge]

Bioglucanase® TX is a high performance glucanase enzyme system derived from Trichoderma reesei which contains hemicellulase side activities. It is used to improve run-off and filtration for grists containing high molecular weight glucan, or for grists containing a portion of unmalted grains. hmm

 

[couchsending]

They’re dry hopping during fermentation.. 1.014 is very easily attainable with hop creep and S04/T-58

 

[Bizkit]

They’re dry hopping during fermentation.. 1.014 is very easily attainable with hop creep and S04/T-58

Agreed. but hop creep tends to blow off diacetyl and i detect no diacetyl in their beers... ADLC is another enzyme used in production to remove the precursors of diacetyl. i don't think they are raising the temps back up on fermenters to chew thru the diacetyl. I have seen their temps set at 68 for ferm, then 62 for what i assume to be dry hop then at crash through out the course of 2 weeks on same tank...this was back in Monson before they started covering the temp controller near the door.
So back to my original point... We know that TH is using enzymes and we know that there are enzymes that are responsible for biotransformation. In fact Lallamand just released one that is intended solely for this purpose. Who is to say that TH hasn't figured out a way to increase biotransformation thru enzymes.... of course this is speculation.

 

[couchsending]

Agreed. but hop creep tends to blow off diacetyl and i detect no diacetyl in their beers... ADLC is another enzyme used in production to remove the precursors of diacetyl. i don't think they are raising the temps back up on fermenters to chew thru the diacetyl. I have seen their temps set at 68 for ferm, then 62 for what i assume to be dry hop then at crash through out the course of 2 weeks on same tank...this was back in Monson before they started covering the temp controller near the door.
So back to my original point... We know that TH is using enzymes and we know that there are enzymes that are responsible for biotransformation. In fact Lallamand just released one that is intended solely for this purpose. Who is to say that TH hasn't figured out a way to increase biotransformation thru enzymes.... of course this is speculation.

Pretty sure you’ve got it backwards. If it is S04 that they’re using they would be fermenting at a lower temp to begin with then raising towards the end at which point they’d be adding hops and capping to naturally carbonate the beers. Yes hop creep can cause diacetyl but if you’re adding the hops before or at the same time as a diacetyl rest you just need to wait a few extra days until the beer is negative for it before you cool. Yes they are probably using ALDC as are most commercial hoppy beer breweries by now.

On a side note I did just have one of the more enjoyable Tree House beers I’ve had in a while... Juice Project, Citra + Amarillo. They only add a small amount of extract in the kettle, no WP additions, and then one huge dry hop at cold temps for a short time. It could be a bit more bitter but it didn’t have that overpowering bready yeast ester that they all tend to have and you could actually pick out the hops.

 

[Lakeside_Brewer5]

Agreed. but hop creep tends to blow off diacetyl and i detect no diacetyl in their beers... ADLC is another enzyme used in production to remove the precursors of diacetyl. i don't think they are raising the temps back up on fermenters to chew thru the diacetyl. I have seen their temps set at 68 for ferm, then 62 for what i assume to be dry hop then at crash through out the course of 2 weeks on same tank...this was back in Monson before they started covering the temp controller near the door.
So back to my original point... We know that TH is using enzymes and we know that there are enzymes that are responsible for biotransformation. In fact Lallamand just released one that is intended solely for this purpose. Who is to say that TH hasn't figured out a way to increase biotransformation thru enzymes.... of course this is speculation.

I think this is certainly something we should pursue based on the results we've had. They're absolutely capping fermenters at some point, most likely by day 7. They believe in biotransformation in their core beers. Also, after taking a look at this photo they shared on their website photo stream, its clear theyre both dry hopping and cold crashing BEFORE going to the brite tank. The caption states this beer is super treat on its way to the brite, and the condensation on the outside tells us its been crashed already. Obviously, that color can only come after dry hopping as well.

There may be some enzyme that 1) helps with mouthfeel 2) helps with biotransformation or 3) shuts down diastaticus yeast

 

[HopsAreGood]

Pretty sure you’ve got it backwards. If it is S04 that they’re using they would be fermenting at a lower temp to begin with then raising towards the end at which point they’d be adding hops and capping to naturally carbonate the beers. Yes hop creep can cause diacetyl but if you’re adding the hops before or at the same time as a diacetyl rest you just need to wait a few extra days until the beer is negative for it before you cool. Yes they are probably using ALDC as are most commercial hoppy beer breweries by now.

On a side note I did just have one of the more enjoyable Tree House beers I’ve had in a while... Juice Project, Citra + Amarillo. They only add a small amount of extract in the kettle, no WP additions, and then one huge dry hop at cold temps for a short time. It could be a bit more bitter but it didn’t have that overpowering bready yeast ester that they all tend to have and you could actually pick out the hops.

How do you know it’s one huge dry hop at cold temps for a short time? Not saying you’re wrong, just curious how you know that. The only info I can find is in the description on their website, and it doesn’t go into quite that level of detail.

 

[couchsending]

How do you know it’s one huge dry hop at cold temps for a short time? Not saying you’re wrong, just curious how you know that. The only info I can find is in the description on their website, and it doesn’t go into quite that level of detail.

Read the description for Thankful..

 

[HopsAreGood]

Read the description for Thankful..

It says utilizing the process developed for juice project, thankful is aggressively cold hopped. Not that they’re going to share but I’d be curious at what temp and for how long.

 

[beervoid]

It says utilizing the process developed for juice project, thankful is aggressively cold hopped. Not that they’re going to share but I’d be curious at what temp and for how long.

Probably trying out the new theory that is floating around the internet.
BSG did a summary post on it. Also Janish wrote a piece on it.
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/reevaluating-dry-hop-techniques

 

[Bizkit]

Pretty sure you’ve got it backwards. If it is S04 that they’re using they would be fermenting at a lower temp to begin with then raising towards the end at which point they’d be adding hops and capping to naturally carbonate the beers. Yes hop creep can cause diacetyl but if you’re adding the hops before or at the same time as a diacetyl rest you just need to wait a few extra days until the beer is negative for it before you cool. Yes they are probably using ALDC as are most commercial hoppy beer breweries by now.

On a side note I did just have one of the more enjoyable Tree House beers I’ve had in a while... Juice Project, Citra + Amarillo. They only add a small amount of extract in the kettle, no WP additions, and then one huge dry hop at cold temps for a short time. It could be a bit more bitter but it didn’t have that overpowering bready yeast ester that they all tend to have and you could actually pick out the hops.

It has been a while since Monson but i made note of the temp changes in that order i am 99% sure that is what i saw. could be wrong tho .... i mostly came here to push that there is a possibility they are creating their signature mouth feel, nose and flavor thru enzymes or processes in combination with S-04. I've personally experienced S04 coming very close especially when under pitched and capped... but there is something more at play.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Probably trying out the new theory that is floating around the internet.
BSG did a summary post on it. Also Janish wrote a piece on it.
https://bsgcraftbrewing.com/reevaluating-dry-hop-techniques

Haha, I shared that BSG link in the never ending NEIPA thread. I’ve been curious about dry hopping cold and currently have one dry hopping at 42 degrees.

 

[couchsending]

It says utilizing the process developed for juice project, thankful is aggressively cold hopped. Not that they’re going to share but I’d be curious at what temp and for how long.

Based on all the recent talk around cold hopping I’d say it’s pretty darn cold. Sub 40 probably

http://scottjanish.com/a-case-for-short-and-cool-dry-hopping/

 

[beervoid]

On that note, did any people here try out lower time dryhopping?
I did a 14c and 1 day and did not like the profile at all. Very greenish

 

[beervoid]

Haha, I shared that BSG link in the never ending NEIPA thread. I’ve been curious about dry hopping cold and currently have one dry hopping at 42 degrees.

Interesting. How long contact are you aiming for? I got to test more but first results where mediocre. Keep us updated if u can.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Interesting. How long contact are you aiming for? I got to test more but first results where mediocre. Keep us updated if u can.

2-3 days. I’ll let you know how it goes.

 

[couchsending]

I think there are a lot of variables at play here when it comes to cold dry hopping.

First and Foremost the quality of your hops. Cant stress enough how much better the hops are that TH has than what we as homebrewers buy.

What was the hopping load in the kettle? What was the pH of the beer when you dry hopped? What varieties of hops did you use? All things to be aware of when evaluating this process.

 

[TBryerton]

How do you know it’s one huge dry hop at cold temps for a short time? Not saying you’re wrong, just curious how you know that. The only info I can find is in the description on their website, and it doesn’t go into quite that level of detail.

I’m fairly certain Nate has stated in the past that he adds all DHs at one time. Obviously that process could change as their beers evolve.

 

[NJGeorge]

I think this is certainly something we should pursue based on the results we've had. They're absolutely capping fermenters at some point, most likely by day 7. They believe in biotransformation in their core beers. Also, after taking a look at this photo they shared on their website photo stream, its clear theyre both dry hopping and cold crashing BEFORE going to the brite tank. The caption states this beer is super treat on its way to the brite, and the condensation on the outside tells us its been crashed already. Obviously, that color can only come after dry hopping as well.

There may be some enzyme that 1) helps with mouthfeel 2) helps with biotransformation or 3) shuts down diastaticus yeast

View attachment 707007

When I chill my conical to around 50-60F this happens during warmer months. Could be anything.