Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[NJGeorge]

What would he be testing? “Conan” or “VT Ale” was tested by @isomerization and you can see where it sits genetically on the @suregork ’s site. It’s not found in any Tree a House beers.

I haven't checked out suregorks site yet. Just to double check and there is the dry version now. There has been some talk on reddit where people have had great results using conan and then adding s04 prior to dry hop to finish it up. I remember reading a while back on one of the forums someone from the "know" said TH basically uses conan. Who knows tho lol we'll probably never know for sure.

 

[NJGeorge]

Allright, what do you consider rushing? how many days do you typically let it go at what temps till crashing?

Dry hopping for a day or two at tail end of fermentation is rushing it. I dump yeast at the tail end of fermentation as long as most of it has flocced. Dry hop for around 4-5 days at around 60-70 then crash and dump hops. Let things settle for another day at room temp (dump more hops) and then keg. As long as you can keep that pressure build up it fill work. I don't have a great way of cooling with the conical (no glycol) so I've been using an old big kettle with ice and cold water to pump through the cooling coils. You can dry hop for a day or two but the beer needs to be finished and cool, also re-circulation helps. I believe @couchsending has luck with cooler temps and shorter time.

 

[NJGeorge]

We were discussing and doing this wayyy earlier in the thread. Can also be done in a keg with the clear beer system.

 

[beervoid]

Dry hopping for a day or two at tail end of fermentation is rushing it. I dump yeast at the tail end of fermentation as long as most of it has flocced. Dry hop for around 4-5 days at around 60-70 then crash and dump hops. Let things settle for another day at room temp (dump more hops) and then keg. As long as you can keep that pressure build up it fill work. I don't have a great way of cooling with the conical (no glycol) so I've been using an old big kettle with ice and cold water to pump through the cooling coils. You can dry hop for a day or two but the beer needs to be finished and cool, also re-circulation helps. I believe @couchsending has luck with cooler temps and shorter time.

Thanks for elaborating.
What kind of psi are you aiming/building up for and do you aim to get full carbonation from spunding?

 

[NJGeorge]

In the conical a little over 15psi

 

[couchsending]

Have you or anyone here tried dry hopping just before end of fermentation and spund up to 30psi (depending on dry hop temp) or so to naturally carbonate?
It seems the most logical way to do it to keep DO low as it wont be neccesary to open the keg to add yeast and priming sugar.
Primary concern I have is that the high pressure might interfere with diacetyl cleanup and be detrimental to the yeast health.

For me it has never resulted in a really expressive hoppy beer. Yes you maybe prevent o2 pickup but the issue is so much yeast in suspension dragging down hop oils. Beers made this way are just never as punchy as the ones made when hops are added after fermentation and yeast has been removed/flocced. A really highly flocculent yeast would maybe help as there would be a lot less in suspension for the last bit of fermentation?

I’ve seen some info lately from quite a few of best brewers of hoppy beer in the west in regards to the “hop stink” that a lot of modern hoppy beers have. The “rotting” or “overripe” fruit character that can be really vegetal as well. Some people say “pumpkin guts”. Just had an Equilibrium DIPA that was straight rotting melon that was disgusting.

Lot of breweries encountering it and word is still out on why it’s happening. High quantities of hops in contact with yeast at higher temps for extended periods of time especially when hop creep comes into play. Brewers are starting to not cap tanks during dry hopping when hop creep is encountered.

Pressure + warm temps + hop creep induced fermentation can potentially lead to some pretty bad off flavors/aromas and not just diacetyl. I think it’s so synonymous with “modern” hazy beer that people don’t even realize what it is.

 

[beervoid]

For me it has never resulted in a really expressive hoppy beer. Yes you maybe prevent o2 pickup but the issue is so much yeast in suspension dragging down hop oils. Beers made this way are just never as punchy as the ones made when hops are added after fermentation and yeast has been removed/flocced. A really highly flocculent yeast would maybe help as there would be a lot less in suspension for the last bit of fermentation?

I’ve seen some info lately from quite a few of best brewers of hoppy beer in the west in regards to the “hop stink” that a lot of modern hoppy beers have. The “rotting” or “overripe” fruit character that can be really vegetal as well. Some people say “pumpkin guts”. Just had an Equilibrium DIPA that was straight rotting melon that was disgusting.

Lot of breweries encountering it and word is still out on why it’s happening. High quantities of hops in contact with yeast at higher temps for extended periods of time especially when hop creep comes into play. Brewers are starting to not cap tanks during dry hopping when hop creep is encountered.

Pressure + warm temps + hop creep induced fermentation can potentially lead to some pretty bad off flavors/aromas and not just diacetyl. I think it’s so synonymous with “modern” hazy beer that people don’t even realize what it is.

I think I know exactly what you mean. I've been picking this up in many neipa's from Europe even the ones considered top (Cloudwater, Verdant) and the triple fractal koru from Equilibrium as well.
My gut feeling is indeed its a matter of high hopping rates plus long high temp contact.
I dry hopped a kveik ipa at 30c one time with 12oz of mosaic and it had this very unpleasant rotten fruit character, similar to what you described.
Have you ever encountered this flavor in your beers?

 

[couchsending]

I think I know exactly what you mean. I've been picking this up in many neipa's from Europe even the ones considered top (Cloudwater, Verdant) and the triple fractal koru from Equilibrium as well.
My gut feeling is indeed its a matter of high hopping rates plus long high temp contact.
I dry hopped a kveik ipa at 30c one time with 12oz of mosaic and it had this very unpleasant rotten fruit character, similar to what you described.
Have you ever encountered this flavor in your beers?

I never experienced it in my beer to the extent I’ve experienced it in commercial beer. I think there’s a couple reasons for that but they’re just guesses honestly. I think pressure has something to do with it and certain yeast strains and certain environments created by lots of hops, elevated temps, and stressed yeast.

I’ve never experienced it when dry hopping colder after yeast has been removed and minimal head pressure on the vessel. (2ish psi)

 

[beervoid]

I never experienced it in my beer to the extent I’ve experienced it in commercial beer. I think there’s a couple reasons for that but they’re just guesses honestly. I think pressure has something to do with it and certain yeast strains and certain environments created by lots of hops, elevated temps, and stressed yeast.

I’ve never experienced it when dry hopping colder after yeast has been removed and minimal head pressure on the vessel. (2ish psi)

Makes sense, the bigger commercial tanks have a lot of hydrostatic pressure already acting on the yeast.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Tree House Very Green

Canned: October 2019
Analyzed: July 2020

Not my finest gel...

It seems quite likely that Fermentis SafAle T-58 or something very genetically similar is in Very Green.

 

[NJGeorge]

@Clyde McCoy will you be testing any wine yeast? I have extra 71b I can send you.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I've screened 22 colonies now and everything is T-58-like. If there's any S-04 or WB-06 in Very Green, I haven't found it. @isomerization did you see anything like this kind of T-58 frequency in any of the beers you tested?

 

[SanPancho]

For me it has never resulted in a really expressive hoppy beer. Yes you maybe prevent o2 pickup but the issue is so much yeast in suspension dragging down hop oils. Beers made this way are just never as punchy as the ones made when hops are added after fermentation and yeast has been removed/flocced. A really highly flocculent yeast would maybe help as there would be a lot less in suspension for the last bit of fermentation?

I’ve seen some info lately from quite a few of best brewers of hoppy beer in the west in regards to the “hop stink” that a lot of modern hoppy beers have. The “rotting” or “overripe” fruit character that can be really vegetal as well. Some people say “pumpkin guts”. Just had an Equilibrium DIPA that was straight rotting melon that was disgusting.

Lot of breweries encountering it and word is still out on why it’s happening. High quantities of hops in contact with yeast at higher temps for extended periods of time especially when hop creep comes into play. Brewers are starting to not cap tanks during dry hopping when hop creep is encountered.

Pressure + warm temps + hop creep induced fermentation can potentially lead to some pretty bad off flavors/aromas and not just diacetyl. I think it’s so synonymous with “modern” hazy beer that people don’t even realize what it is.

1318+warm dry hop=. sickly sweet beer

 

[SanPancho]

It seems the most logical way to do it to keep DO low as it wont be neccesary to open the keg to add yeast and priming sugar.

you don’t open the ferm or the keg. you shoot them into the vessel. Just get a carbonator cap and small (6-8oz) soda bottle, two liquid QDs, piece of tubing to connect the qds.

 

[couchsending]

Tree House Very Green

Canned: October 2019
Analyzed: July 2020

Not my finest gel...

View attachment 689081

It seems quite likely that Fermentis SafAle T-58 or something very genetically similar is in Very Green.

You’re testing 9 month old beer? Could it be the only thing still living is T-58? Did someone just happen to have a 9 month old Very Green sitting in their fridge that they sent you?

I’d be a bit more interested to see ever you find in a 9 day old beer.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

You’re testing 9 month old beer? Could it be the only thing still living is T-58? Did someone just happen to have a 9 month old Very Green sitting in their fridge that they sent you?

I’d be a bit more interested to see ever you find in a 9 day old beer.

Yes. It's possible, but I don't have a biological explanation for why that would be, maybe @suregork can comment. Yes.

There are June 2020 cans that I will check next.

 

[isomerization]

I've screened 22 colonies now and everything is T-58-like. If there's any S-04 or WB-06 in Very Green, I haven't found it. @isomerization did you see anything like this kind of T-58 frequency in any of the beers you tested?

View attachment 689361

View attachment 689362

View attachment 689363

No, I saw predominantly (what we’re calling) S-04 and if I cultured the dregs, then CBC-1 would be majority.

If you’re seeing this effect in multiple cans then it could be real. You are streak plating the dregs, correct?

 

[TBryerton]

Yes. It's possible, but I don't have a biological explanation for why that would be, maybe @suregork can comment. Yes.

There are June 2020 cans that I will check next.

I have some fresh TH and would be happy to send you a can or two to contribute to this experiment if it would be helpful.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

No, I saw predominantly (what we’re calling) S-04 and if I cultured the dregs, then CBC-1 would be majority.

If you’re seeing this effect in multiple cans then it could be real. You are streak plating the dregs, correct?

That's right - decant, centrifuge, resuspend in PBS, serial dilute on YPD plates. Screening colonies from several plates.

I have so far only tested this 9-month-old can of Very Green.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I have some fresh TH and would be happy to send you a can or two to contribute to this experiment if it would be helpful.

For all beer/yeast please PM me, I don't always check this thread.

Recent Green/Very Green would be helpful to compare with.

 

[TheHairyHop]

you don’t open the ferm or the keg. you shoot them into the vessel. Just get a carbonator cap and small (6-8oz) soda bottle, two liquid QDs, piece of tubing to connect the qds.

I've been concocting a separate inline system for adding krausen at kegging, but this is much simpler. Great idea

 

[Clyde McCoy]

29 colonies later and the only thing I've found in this October 2019 can of Very Green is Fermentis T-58 or something very genetically similar.

While it is possible that somehow only this strain survived after nine months, I doubt it. I will be testing a fresh can of Very Green soon to confirm.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Worth noting that T-58 is pretty closely related to S-33/Windsor/ESB, and somewhat less closely related to BRY-97, so it's worth bearing those in mind. But certainly T-58 and BRY-97 are interesting from a biotransformation POV so they're obvious ones for them to play with.

Or you could be seeing the aftermath of an attack by killer strains....

 

[isomerization]

Worth noting that T-58 is pretty closely related to S-33/Windsor/ESB, and somewhat less closely related to BRY-97, so it's worth bearing those in mind. But certainly T-58 and BRY-97 are interesting from a biotransformation POV so they're obvious ones for them to play with.

Or you could be seeing the aftermath of an attack by killer strains....

I thought about that option, but shouldn’t we be seeing that strain as well.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Worth noting that T-58 is pretty closely related to S-33/Windsor/ESB, and somewhat less closely related to BRY-97, so it's worth bearing those in mind. But certainly T-58 and BRY-97 are interesting from a biotransformation POV so they're obvious ones for them to play with.

Or you could be seeing the aftermath of an attack by killer strains....

Of those strains, I've only tested S-33. Definitely did not see see anything matching that profile in this can.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I thought about that option, but shouldn’t we be seeing that strain as well.

Could be something that's not happy living in beer for 9 months I guess?

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Tree House Julius

Canned: June 11, 2020
Analyzed: July 2020

Definitely something that resembles the electrophoretic banding profile of Fermentis S-04 in this can of Julius. I'll screen additional colonies for T-58 and WB-06 @isomerization.

What am I looking at? Yeast genomes contain transposable elements, DNA sequences that can move (transpose) to new sites in the genome. We can crudely identify yeast strains by amplifying the transposable elements in the yeast genome by PCR and then separating the amplicons by gel electrophoresis.*

*Note that DNA sequencing is necessary to unequivocally prove a genetic match, as closely related strains may contain similar patterns of transposable elements.

 

[isomerization]

That's right - decant, centrifuge, resuspend in PBS, serial dilute on YPD plates. Screening colonies from several plates.

I have so far only tested this 9-month-old can of Very Green.

Looking back at this comment, I wonder if you’re selecting for single floccs of yeast (can different strains flocc together)?

When I was playing dregs, I centrifuged the last 5-10 mL of beer, decanted and then used a flame sterilized loop (after cooling in the agar) to streak out in quadrants. Pick from where you get single colony separation. Maybe that will help with diversity sampling?

 

[Clyde McCoy]

Looking back at this comment, I wonder if you’re selecting for single floccs of yeast (can different strains flocc together)?

When I was playing dregs, I centrifuged the last 5-10 mL of beer, decanted and then used a flame sterilized loop (after cooling in the agar) to streak out in quadrants. Pick from where you get single colony separation. Maybe that will help with diversity sampling?

Just to clarify (methods matter!), here's how I'm harvesting yeast:

1. Centrifuge last 30-50 ml beer
2. Decant supernatant
3. Resuspend pellet in 5-10 ml PBS
4. Vortex thoroughly
5. Plate serial dilutions
6. Pick single, dispersed colonies.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Might be easier to see differences if you plated on WLN? (although I completely get that there comes a point where this no longer becomes a side project.... )