Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[brewpharm Hill]

Took another take on the trio yesterday since I finally got an accurate enough scale. Pitched at pitched at 78 and chilled to 72. I'll bump it down to 63-64 today at 4:30 (24 hours post pitch). Blow off was bubbling nicely this morning and the smell from the blow off is definitely reminiscent of TH.

I did not aerate/oxygenate or rehydrate.

 

[NJGeorge]

Took another take on the trio yesterday since I finally got an accurate enough scale. Pitched at pitched at 78 and chilled to 72. I'll bump it down to 63-64 today at 4:30 (24 hours post pitch). Blow off was bubbling nicely this morning and the smell from the blow off is definitely reminiscent of TH.

I did not aerate/oxygenate or rehydrate.

I wonder if pitching a killer wine yeast now like the one mentioned above would kill the wb and prevent it from producing clove and keep all those nice esters.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I plan on carbonating with CBC1 in the keg. Secondary fermentation/natural carbonation in belgian beers is known to soften the higher alcohols, esters, phenols etc so it may play into it. @robopp said he gets zero clove so I'm copying his method which is essentially the Trinity clone. My past attempts failed due to the inaccurate scale I was using.

 

[suregork]

A potentially relevant poster abstract at this year's WBC:

"Can we rescue Beer infected with Diastaticus during fermentation: A profile in killer yeast and the effect of co-fermentation on the superattenuative characteristics of diastaticus."
https://brewing.confex.com/brewing/2020/meetingapp.cgi/Paper/1383
They show that killer yeasts, such as CBC-1, inhibit diastatic yeasts. I didn't have time to go through this thread, but I seem to remember the early PCR results suggested CBC-1 might be one of strains? Maybe it is used to prevent overattenuation by WB-06 (or supressing the phenolic character)

 

[brewpharm Hill]

A potentially relevant poster abstract at this year's WBC:

"Can we rescue Beer infected with Diastaticus during fermentation: A profile in killer yeast and the effect of co-fermentation on the superattenuative characteristics of diastaticus."
https://brewing.confex.com/brewing/2020/meetingapp.cgi/Paper/1383
They show that killer yeasts, such as CBC-1, inhibit diastatic yeasts. I didn't have time to go through this thread, but I seem to remember the early PCR results suggested CBC-1 might be one of strains? Maybe it is used to prevent overattenuation by WB-06 (or supressing the phenolic character)

thanks for the link. That is my plan and what some of us believe TH may be using.

Yup. CBC1 is from lallemand so TH may be using F2 which is the Fermentis conditioning strain. I think I remembering reading somewhere that CBC1 essentially a champagne/wine yeast. I've used it several times in the past with great results, but never with the suspected "trio."

 

[Noob_Brewer]

View attachment 685299So I carbed it up and this beer is SOFT and THICK on the palette. It still has that very fruity wine like thing going on but it’s very enjoyable to drink. My best guess is that the 71B is really contributing to the mouthfeel due to the high levels of glycerol it produces. I think I’ll try playing with some different combos going forward...both yeast combos and ratios. My next brew is going to be with omegas version of 1318 so maybe I’ll try that whole pack and 2 or 3 grams of 71B.

Hey man just checking in to see how the final version of this came out? Very curious. Been about 2 weeks since you kegged?

 

[NJGeorge]

thanks for the link. That is my plan and what some of us believe TH may be using.

Yup. CBC1 is from lallemand so TH may be using F2 which is the Fermentis conditioning strain. I think I remembering reading somewhere that CBC1 essentially a champagne/wine yeast. I've used it several times in the past with great results, but never with the suspected "trio."

If that’s the case. I would try pitching that yeast now to stop wb. I’m telling you, no matter how many times I’ve used wb (low % with accurate scale, no hydration or airation) I always get some phenolic character that never really ages away, even when Naturally carbonated at the end. Because by then, the damage is done. Maybe when you get the desired esters you like, pitch the killer yeast to preserve those flavors and stop any clove that might some through. Maybe I’m just over thinking this all! Haha

 

[brewpharm Hill]

If that’s the case. I would try pitching that yeast now to stop wb. I’m telling you, no matter how many times I’ve used wb (low % with accurate scale, no hydration or airation) I always get some phenolic character that never really ages away, even when Naturally carbonated at the end. Because by then, the damage is done. Maybe when you get the desired esters you like, pitch the killer yeast to preserve those flavors and stop any clove that might some through. Maybe I’m just over thinking this all! Haha

I mashed at 156 so I don't think there will be any sugars left that cbc1 can ferment and its at about 1.025 SG right now. It doesn't ferment maltotriose if I'm not mistaken so I'm just going to let it ride! FWIW I just dry hopped and I couldn't pick up any clove/hefe like aroma. In previous failed trials I could smell it. Here's to experimentation...

 

[TheHairyHop]

If that’s the case. I would try pitching that yeast now to stop wb. I’m telling you, no matter how many times I’ve used wb (low % with accurate scale, no hydration or airation) I always get some phenolic character that never really ages away, even when Naturally carbonated at the end. Because by then, the damage is done. Maybe when you get the desired esters you like, pitch the killer yeast to preserve those flavors and stop any clove that might some through. Maybe I’m just over thinking this all! Haha

You're not overthinking it, because, in my mind, the WB-06 still doesn't make any sense.

 

[NJGeorge]

“Unpasteurized, bottle-conditioned commercial beers may or may not contain the primary yeast strain used for fermentation. Many examples are filtered or centrifuged before packaging and then re-dosed with a neutral ale, lager, or wine strain for packaging. This helps ensure consistent carbonation and can protect a brewery’s proprietary culture. Other brewers, however, are content to ship beer that includes a full complement of their own brewing microbes.” Join the Culture Club: Brew With Yeast From Commercial Beer!

 

[TheHairyHop]

http://scottjanish.com/survivables-unpacking-hot-side-hop-flavor/"... beers were brewed with Simcoe, Citra, and Mosaic in the whirlpool and tested for final concentrations of the various isobutryic esters across multiple yeast strains and found that SafAle S33 and SafAle K97 retained the highest concentrations (US-05 had the lowest levels) of isobutryic esters..."

 

[Northern_Brewer]

http://scottjanish.com/survivables-unpacking-hot-side-hop-flavor/"... beers were brewed with Simcoe, Citra, and Mosaic in the whirlpool and tested for final concentrations of the various isobutryic esters across multiple yeast strains and found that SafAle S33 and SafAle K97 retained the highest concentrations (US-05 had the lowest levels) of isobutryic esters..."

And the very next line says " None of the yeast strains appeared to produce beers with 2MIB above its threshold." so it's kinda moot. The whole isobutryic story is complicated, it may be relevant for a very small handful of hops like Southern Cross which are capable of getting over the threshold, he explored it a bit in this article.

He also goes on to say that the reason why using some yeast leads to lower 2MIB is because they are biotransforming it into other compounds, which may be more interesting (qv T-58 which seems quite active in that regard when it comes to terpenols).

 

[TheHairyHop]

And the very next line says " None of the yeast strains appeared to produce beers with 2MIB above its threshold." so it's kinda moot. The whole isobutryic story is complicated, it may be relevant for a very small handful of hops like Southern Cross which are capable of getting over the threshold, he explored it a bit in this article.

He also goes on to say that the reason why using some yeast leads to lower 2MIB is because they are biotransforming it into other compounds, which may be more interesting (qv T-58 which seems quite active in that regard when it comes to terpenols).

The paper hopped at a rate 9 times less than what the brewery does. I wouldn't call that a moot situation. That's nearly an order of magnitude less. Additionally, there are often synergistic effects where near threshold levels of compounds can increase the perception of each

 

[brewpharm Hill]

https://www.brewersjournal.info/diastaticus-yeasts-and-their-role-in-your-beer/
Article mentions that diastaticus strains can be found on hops. Sounds unlikely that we'd find banding patterns from TH yeast cultures so closely related to WB06, but I'm no microbiologist.

 

[TheHairyHop]

https://www.brewersjournal.info/diastaticus-yeasts-and-their-role-in-your-beer/
Article mentions that diastaticus strains can be found on hops. Sounds unlikely that we'd find banding patterns from TH yeast cultures so closely related to WB06, but I'm no microbiologist.

I had that happen when I used some fresh hops from my parent's garden. Turned the beer into a pretty decent Belgian-ish pale ale!

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Kegged my attempt tonight. I can’t taste any clove so far. I primed it with 2gm CBC1 and some table sugar to get 2.4 volumes of CO2 via BrewFather’s calculations.

The first sips it was cold was definitely reminiscent of TH so I’m excited to test the carbonated and conditioned product. Not confirming or denying this is what TH uses or that it’s a TH like beer yet. Just saying I think it’s heading in the right direction. More to come.

 

[beervoid]

Kegged my attempt tonight. I can’t taste any clove so far. I primed it with 2gm CBC1 and some table sugar to get 2.4 volumes of CO2 via BrewFather’s calculations.

The first sips it was cold was definitely reminiscent of TH so I’m excited to test the carbonated and conditioned product. Not confirming or denying this is what TH uses or that it’s a TH like beer yet. Just saying I think it’s heading in the right direction. More to come.

How long are you planning to condition it and at what temps?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Sorry for such terrible grammar on that last post I’m just leaving it at room temp which is about 68-70 degrees I’ll leave it there for 5-7 days then place it in the kegerator to cold condition. Given how warm my apartment gets I may even carb it for less time - I don’t have a great way of sampling it unfortunately.
After it’s chilled in the kegerator for 48 hours I’ll start sampling to get an idea for a sweet spot for cold conditioning in the future.

 

[beervoid]

Sorry for such terrible grammar on that last post I’m just leaving it at room temp which is about 68-70 degrees I’ll leave it there for 5-7 days then place it in the kegerator to cold condition. Given how warm my apartment gets I may even carb it for less time - I don’t have a great way of sampling it unfortunately.
After it’s chilled in the kegerator for 48 hours I’ll start sampling to get an idea for a sweet spot for cold conditioning in the future.

So you cold crash to transfer of the hops and then add yeast and sugar and let it warm back up?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

So you cold crash to transfer of the hops and then add yeast and sugar and let it warm back up?

Yup. I only crash to about 42 and then let it warm up at room temp as I sanitize and purge my kegs and lines. I do the cold crash to drop out any hops and some of the yeast that may still be in suspension. I want to condition and a hop/relatively yeast free solution.

 

[NJGeorge]

@Clyde McCoy any chance you will be testing Conan?

 

[NJGeorge]

Given how warm my apartment gets I may even carb it for less time - I don’t have a great way of sampling it unfortunately.

Hey man you can just hook up a small picnic tap to the keg and co2 tank. It will be foamy but at least you can sample and even take gravity readings. I do it al the time.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Hey man you can just hook up a small picnic tap to the keg and co2 tank. It will be foamy but at least you can sample and even take gravity readings. I do it al the time.

I know I need to get one to set up.


Had my first pour last night. Its damn good. Still needs some time to develop in the keg at cold temps, but its nice. It was super hot in my apartment when it was carbing up which I think effected the flavor a little, the hydrometer sample at kegging tasted more tree housey. Still close though! Going to need more experimenting.

 

[brewpharm Hill]

I'm going to be mailing a couple cans out to @Clyde McCoy next week.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

I know I need to get one to set up.


Had my first pour last night. Its damn good. Still needs some time to develop in the keg at cold temps, but its nice. It was super hot in my apartment when it was carbing up which I think effected the flavor a little, the hydrometer sample at kegging tasted more tree housey. Still close though! Going to need more experimenting.

Experimenting is a rough life eh? Lol. What yeast did you use again? Tried following earlier in thread and did you just use SO4?

 

[brewpharm Hill]

Experimenting is a rough life eh? Lol. What yeast did you use again? Tried following earlier in thread and did you just use SO4?

Haha the adventures of homebrewing. I used S04, T58, WB06 (92%/5%/3%). Fermented at 71-72 for the first 24 then dropped to 63 for the remainder. This is the first attempt I've had with this yeast that is actually good and doesn't come out like a belgian or hefe - I'm attributing this to a proper scale. The aroma is more TH like than the flavor at this point.

 

[couchsending]

@Clyde McCoy any chance you will be testing Conan?

What would he be testing? “Conan” or “VT Ale” was tested by @isomerization and you can see where it sits genetically on the @suregork ’s site. It’s not found in any Tree a House beers.

 

[beervoid]

Yup. I only crash to about 42 and then let it warm up at room temp as I sanitize and purge my kegs and lines. I do the cold crash to drop out any hops and some of the yeast that may still be in suspension. I want to condition and a hop/relatively yeast free solution.

Have you or anyone here tried dry hopping just before end of fermentation and spund up to 30psi (depending on dry hop temp) or so to naturally carbonate?
It seems the most logical way to do it to keep DO low as it wont be neccesary to open the keg to add yeast and priming sugar.
Primary concern I have is that the high pressure might interfere with diacetyl cleanup and be detrimental to the yeast health.

 

[NJGeorge]

Have you or anyone here tried dry hopping just before end of fermentation and spund up to 30psi (depending on dry hop temp) or so to naturally carbonate?
It seems the most logical way to do it to keep DO low as it wont be neccesary to open the keg to add yeast and priming sugar.
Primary concern I have is that the high pressure might interfere with diacetyl cleanup and be detrimental to the yeast health.

I've done it a bunch of times with the spike conical. Works well. Dry hop creep also adds to the carbonation. Haven't had any diacetyl problems when you don't rush it.

 

[beervoid]

I've done it a bunch of times with the spike conical. Works well. Dry hop creep also adds to the carbonation. Haven't had any diacetyl problems when you don't rush it.

Allright, what do you consider rushing? how many days do you typically let it go at what temps till crashing?