Is yeast nutrient needed in all grain brewing?

[p_p]

Hi, I am brewing all grain with no less than 70% barley malt.
I understand malt provides most nutrients with the exception of Zn and Cu.
To offset this deficiency, I've been adding 2gr Wyeast nutrient to a 5 gal batch and placing a piece of copper in my kettle during boil (no other source of copper in my equipment).

Is the use of nutrient really necessary? Is it possible that I am ending up with too many FANs to a point where off-flavours may develop?

(I haven't noticed any off-flavours, but then again I don't know how off-flavours derived from excess FANs taste like?)

thanks

 

[madscientist451]

A healthy fermentation is important, and your question is a good one. I'm not sure the 2 gr of yeast nutrient added having the copper in the boil kettle will make a difference. If the beer comes out the way you like, then keep doing it.
I usually use nutrient when making a starter or making a high alcohol brew.

 

[ebstauffer]

Malted barley and other grains provide all the nutrients needed for a healthy ferment.

 

[joshesmusica]

Malted barley and other grains provide all the nutrients needed for a healthy ferment.

Except zinc. Which is also beneficial for a healthy ferment.

All grain vs. extract isn't really pertinent to this discussion. As both worts are malt worts.

I always use a bit in the starter, and then the recommended amount for 5 gallons in the boil. It's cheap enough that a little over 1/4 tspn per batch will last you a long time, and if it's only going to benefit the yeast (and therefore your beer), I don't know why people wouldn't do it.

 

[p_p]

Except zinc. Which is also beneficial for a healthy ferment.

All grain vs. extract isn't really pertinent to this discussion. As both worts are malt worts.

I always use a bit in the starter, and then the recommended amount for 5 gallons in the boil. It's cheap enough that a little over 1/4 tspn per batch will last you a long time, and if it's only going to benefit the yeast (and therefore your beer), I don't know why people wouldn't do it.

Are you concerned anyhow with excessive FANs and potential off-flavors?
I don't know how much FANs is too much FANs and whether adding a couple of grams of yeast nutrient to a 5 gal batch can even get us close to the recommended limit.

thanks

 

[joshesmusica]

Are you concerned anyhow with excessive FANs and potential off-flavors?
I don't know how much FANs is too much FANs and whether adding a couple of grams of yeast nutrient to a 5 gal batch can even get us close to the recommended limit.

thanks

I'm not really concerned with it. Though, I haven't personally found out how much is too much either. But I do know that zinc is specifically tied to alcohol production, and that all-malt wort lacks zinc. So I'm more concerned with the off-flavors coming from a lack of healthy yeast. I don't add 1/4 tspn to the starter. Just a bit. Then I add the recommended 1/4 tspn in a 5 gallon batch. So I really don't think I would be coming close to having too much FANs.

The main potential off-flavor from too much is an abundance of fusel alcohols. Those are quite hard to miss when they're present at high levels. I've been using the yeast nutrient in this way since July, and haven't had any over-abundance of fusels in 12 brews.

 

[p_p]

I'm not really concerned with it. Though, I haven't personally found out how much is too much either. But I do know that zinc is specifically tied to alcohol production, and that all-malt wort lacks zinc. So I'm more concerned with the off-flavors coming from a lack of healthy yeast. I don't add 1/4 tspn to the starter. Just a bit. Then I add the recommended 1/4 tspn in a 5 gallon batch. So I really don't think I would be coming close to having too much FANs.

The main potential off-flavor from too much is an abundance of fusel alcohols. Those are quite hard to miss when they're present at high levels. I've been using the yeast nutrient in this way since July, and haven't had any over-abundance of fusels in 12 brews.

Good info, thank you very much

 

[Kent88]

Yeast nutrient is more for wine, especially fruit wine, mead, and high-adjunct beer. And be careful not to add too much to a yeast starter. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought yeast nutrient was more for adding protein than minerals. Did anything you tasted or noticed during fermentation prompt you to use nutrient?

Make sure that you aren't using RO water, have a healthy amount of trub (a problem for me because I brew small batches and I don't want to lose an ounce more than I have to for trub), have plenty of healthy yeast, and aerate it well between chilling wort and pitching yeast. That doesn't really do anything for protein or minerals, but if you're noticing some issues during fermentation, these are the best things to start with before adding nutrient (besides sanitation if there is unwanted yeast/mold/bacteria).

If after doing those things your fermentations still don't look great, I'd start by adding about a quarter of the nutrient the label calls for, and not go past adding half of what the label calls for.

I am unaware of any off-flavors that occur from there being too much protein in wort/beer from adding the proper amount of nutrient.

 

[BigJack]

Is the use of nutrient really necessary?

Nope. Not at all. As all the other replies, we can debate when and if added nutrients are helpful, but they are not necessary.

 

[joshesmusica]

Yeast nutrient is more for wine, especially fruit wine, mead, and high-adjunct beer. And be careful not to add too much to a yeast starter. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought yeast nutrient was more for adding protein than minerals. Did anything you tasted or noticed during fermentation prompt you to use nutrient?

Make sure that you aren't using RO water, have a healthy amount of trub (a problem for me because I brew small batches and I don't want to lose an ounce more than I have to for trub), have plenty of healthy yeast, and aerate it well between chilling wort and pitching yeast. That doesn't really do anything for protein or minerals, but if you're noticing some issues during fermentation, these are the best things to start with before adding nutrient (besides sanitation if there is unwanted yeast/mold/bacteria).

If after doing those things your fermentations still don't look great, I'd start by adding about a quarter of the nutrient the label calls for, and not go past adding half of what the label calls for.

I am unaware of any off-flavors that occur from there being too much protein in wort/beer from adding the proper amount of nutrient.

I'm sorry, but most of this is wrong.

 

[joshesmusica]

Not at all.

The experts tend to disagree with you.

 

[Yooper]

Nope. Not at all. As all the other replies, we can debate when and if added nutrients are helpful, but they are not necessary.

I agree, for the most part.

I was helping a fellow HBT'er chase down an off flavor. We both went crazy, as I got a distinct "mineral" flavor that at first I attributed to water. He went with 100% RO water- and still that flavor!

Turns out he was using "yeast nutrient" in the boil. It contained DAP. While I use DAP in my wines and meads, it created an off-flavor in his beer.

You really don't need "yeast nutrient" in wort for the most part.

I have yeast nutrient in "" because sometimes people don't even know what is in there, and why they are using it.

It's true that zinc is lacking in wort. But I don't think that anything else is lacking in wort made primarily of malted barley, and I get some zinc from my copper wort chiller.

I would not use yeast nutrient without a specific reason, and only if I was 100% certain in what I was adding.

 

[Kent88]

I'm sorry, but most of this is wrong.

I give you free reign to pick apart my post one bit of advice at a time with *no* lasting damage done to my ego or and you *wont* have to worry that I will hate you forever. I was directly responding to the original question, and I was sure to point out the info that I wasn't 100% sure of, but even with that I was still >95% sure of the information I provided.

The only parts I felt somewhat uncomfortable about were where I said "That doesn't really do anything for protein or minerals", because RO (reverse osmosis) water lacks minerals so it would do something for mineral content, and where I called the steps I pointed out the "best things to start with", saying "best" might have been overstating, but not by much. Besides that, my opinions on rates of nutrient to use (which I was considering in the context of beer brewing) might be debatable, but most nutrient labels I have read give rates to add to "must" rather than "wort", and I specifically asked to be corrected if I was mistaken about mineral content of yeast nutrients.

If I am indeed wrong, please correct my specific mistakes, because I might have a lot of things wrong about brewing and I don't want to continue spreading bad info. I want to be a helpful member of this forum. If you feel it would be more appropriate, you may PM me.

 

[BigJack]

The experts tend to disagree with you.

Thousands of years of people brewing beer without even know how yeast worked, let alone providing extra nutrients for them, agrees with me.

Look, I never said you shouldn't use added yeast nutrients. I simply said it isn't necessary.

Make your beer your way- just don't act like your way is the only way.

 

[menerdari]

You know for every so called "Expert" you find that says one thing you can find others that say something different.
I have brewed many batches of beer over the years anything from pale ale to stouts and many styles in between, both extract and all grain, they all have one thing in common. I never added any nutrient to any of them and all but one came out great. the only bad batch had nothing to do with the yeast health, it was me adding cranberry juice in the secondary (I'll never do that again)
I have used nutrients in wine, cider and a batch of Skeeter Pee. but never beer.

 

[joshesmusica]

Thousands of years of people brewing beer without even know how yeast worked, let alone providing extra nutrients for them, agrees with me.

Look, I never said you shouldn't use added yeast nutrients. I simply said it isn't necessary.

Make your beer your way- just don't act like your way is the only way.

I don't believe I ever said my way was the only way. In fact, you were the one who said they were "never" needed. When I pointed out that the yeast experts would disagree with you that it's never needed, you got defensive. So it seems the opposite is true.

I simply said, "If it's proven beneficial by the yeast experts (you know those guys who have PhDs in Yeast Biochemistry?), why not use it?"

For thousands of years people also thought that it was simply a chemical reaction in the ingredients that caused the alcohol. Before that people thought it was their offerings to the gods that gave them this intoxicating beverage (what a reward, btw!). Denying new discoveries on the basis that something's been working just fine for 1000s of years is a pretty slippery slope.

 

[joshesmusica]

Yeast nutrient is more for wine, especially fruit wine, mead, and high-adjunct beer. And be careful not to add too much to a yeast starter. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought yeast nutrient was more for adding protein than minerals. Did anything you tasted or noticed during fermentation prompt you to use nutrient?

Make sure that you aren't using RO water, have a healthy amount of trub (a problem for me because I brew small batches and I don't want to lose an ounce more than I have to for trub), have plenty of healthy yeast, and aerate it well between chilling wort and pitching yeast. That doesn't really do anything for protein or minerals, but if you're noticing some issues during fermentation, these are the best things to start with before adding nutrient (besides sanitation if there is unwanted yeast/mold/bacteria).

If after doing those things your fermentations still don't look great, I'd start by adding about a quarter of the nutrient the label calls for, and not go past adding half of what the label calls for.

I am unaware of any off-flavors that occur from there being too much protein in wort/beer from adding the proper amount of nutrient.

Ok, fair enough. I didn't have the time to give a thorough response earlier, my apologies.

1) No, yeast nutrient is for adding minerals and metal ions. Not necessarily proteins, although those are a small part.

http://www.whitelabs.com/other-products/wln1000-white-labs-yeast-nutrient

2) Most water experts suggest, in fact, to start with RO water, and add the additional ions needed, when one doesn't know the make-up of their tap water.

3) The trub part is based off of one guy's three experiments. There are a couple of studies (I'm sorry you'll have to google those on your own), that show that with some styles you would want higher amounts of the available proteins and lipids in the trub (not necessarily the hop trub, though), but that some styles will actually have detrimental effects.

4) Although one batch might turn out pretty good in the end, if one is planning on harvesting yeast, long-term planning is necessary. That includes making sure they had the proper nutrients to build up their cells, and therefore subsequent "offspring's" cells, properly the first time.

As I've said a couple of times already: Is yeast nutrient absolutely critical for every brew? No. Is it proven to be beneficial? Yes, most definitely, when used in the proper amounts.

 

[BigJack]

I simply said, "If it's proven beneficial by the yeast experts (you know those guys who have PhDs in Yeast Biochemistry?), why not use it?"

I never said it wasn't beneficial. It just isn't necessary- and, yes, history backs my statement up.

And, again, I'm not saying you shouldn't use nutrient. But "necessary" implies that you MUST.

You can argue that nutrient is good. You can argue it is beneficial. You can even argue, if you wish, that we OUGHt to use it. But you can't call it necessary because untold billions of gallons have been successfully brewed without it.

By all means, advocate for nutrient. Heck, I'm open to any evidence you've got. I'm not against progress in brewing. Make your best case. I'm all ears.

But if you insist on misusing the word "necessary," you're just going to undermine your credibility.

Or, to quote one of my favorite movies...

 

[joshesmusica]

I never said it wasn't beneficial. It just isn't necessary- and, yes, history backs my statement up.

And, again, I'm not saying you shouldn't use nutrient. But "necessary" implies that you MUST.

You can argue that nutrient is good. You can argue it is beneficial. You can even argue, if you wish, that we OUGHt to use it. But you can't call it necessary because untold billions of gallons have been successfully brewed without it.

By all means, advocate for nutrient. Heck, I'm open to any evidence you've got. I'm not against progress in brewing. Make your best case. I'm all ears.

But if you insist on misusing the word "necessary," you're just going to undermine your credibility.

Or, to quote one of my favorite movies...

I think you need to really take a minute to pause, go back and read through the thread, and then soak it all in. I've used necessary once in this entire thread, and never was it in the context of yeast nutrient being necessary.

You, however, said, "Not at all." Which would lead someone considering using yeast nutrient to believe that he/she should never use it. This was in fact misleading, and undermining your own credibility.

I've already given my thoughts as to why it's beneficial. You, again, need to learn to read, and understand what's being said, before responding.

You can supplement the wort with additional minerals and vitamins using commercially available yeast nutrients to improve the health and performance of yeast. Zinc is one compound that is often in short supply.

To work, or work efficiently, many enzymes need certain minerals as co-factors. For example, brewer’s wort is often zinc limited. Zinc is a co-factor for the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase, the enzyme responsible for alcohol production in yeast. The enzyme cannot utilize other metal ions in place of zinc.

An all-malt wort contains all the nutrients yeast need for fermentation except oxygen and zinc. Adjuncts such as corn, rice, or sugar syrups do not contain many essential nutrients, such as nitrogen, minerals, and vitamins. Even with all-malt worts, brewers may find advantage in adding nutrients to improve and fine tune fermentation performance. Several yeast nutrient products available provide a balanced source of nitrogen, minerals, and vitamins. Brewers can also add specific nutrients individually, but keep in mind that excessive amounts of nutrients can also cause problems. Your goal is to find the optimal balance for your fermentation conditions.

From the book, "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation" by Chris White (You know, the owner of White Labs, who has a PhD in yeast biochemistry that I mentioned above?) and Zamil Zainasheff.

 

[BigJack]

As you think I'm incapable of understanding, I'm going to bow out of this thread.

 

[Yooper]

The only thing that wort "may" be lacking is zinc. Most "yeast nutrients" available commercially have things like DAP or FAN, not just zinc.

While adding some zinc may be beneficial, not adding it is fine. In my case, I have a copper HERMS and a copper chiller- plenty of zinc there.

The question the OP asked is "Is yeast nutrient needed in all grain brewing?" and the answer is no, it's not needed.

It may be beneficial in certain cases (none of which have been proven in this ridiculously long and argumentative thread), but it is almost never NEEDED.

 

[zeptrey]

the only thing that wort "may" be lacking is zinc. Most "yeast nutrients" available commercially have things like dap or fan, not just zinc.



While adding some zinc may be beneficial, not adding it is fine. In my case, i have a copper herms and a copper chiller- plenty of zinc there.



The question the op asked is "is yeast nutrient needed in all grain brewing?" and the answer is no, it's not needed.



It may be beneficial in certain cases (none of which have been proven in this ridiculously long and argumentative thread), but it is almost never needed.

+1

 

[joshesmusica]

The only thing that wort "may" be lacking is zinc. Most "yeast nutrients" available commercially have things like DAP or FAN, not just zinc.

While adding some zinc may be beneficial, not adding it is fine. In my case, I have a copper HERMS and a copper chiller- plenty of zinc there.

The question the OP asked is "Is yeast nutrient needed in all grain brewing?" and the answer is no, it's not needed.

It may be beneficial in certain cases (none of which have been proven in this ridiculously long and argumentative thread), but it is almost never NEEDED.

I agree. And I believe I answered the OP, by saying pretty much this. He (hope he's a he), then asked if I was worried about adding nutrients being detrimental. I answered that I wasn't, because I don't overdo it. Also my system adds zero extra zinc, so in my case, I think it's beneficial. I could possibly seek out some other source of zinc, but this is incredibly cheap on a per-batch basis, so it's the easiest solution for me. Although, maybe I should just look into boiling in a copper kettle over a fire like they still do on a few Norwegian farmhouse breweries!

 

[Kent88]

Ok, fair enough. I didn't have the time to give a thorough response earlier, my apologies.

1) No, yeast nutrient is for adding minerals and metal ions. Not necessarily proteins, although those are a small part.

http://www.whitelabs.com/other-products/wln1000-white-labs-yeast-nutrient

2) Most water experts suggest, in fact, to start with RO water, and add the additional ions needed, when one doesn't know the make-up of their tap water.

3) The trub part is based off of one guy's three experiments. There are a couple of studies (I'm sorry you'll have to google those on your own), that show that with some styles you would want higher amounts of the available proteins and lipids in the trub (not necessarily the hop trub, though), but that some styles will actually have detrimental effects.

4) Although one batch might turn out pretty good in the end, if one is planning on harvesting yeast, long-term planning is necessary. That includes making sure they had the proper nutrients to build up their cells, and therefore subsequent "offspring's" cells, properly the first time.

As I've said a couple of times already: Is yeast nutrient absolutely critical for every brew? No. Is it proven to be beneficial? Yes, most definitely, when used in the proper amounts.

I appreciate you taking the time to break this down.

1. I genuinely didn't know this, which is why I asked. The only things listed on my LD Carlson yeast nutrient label are urea, which I associate with FAN (because of an animal science class I took once, along with reading several articles over the years about forming a ration), and Diammonium Phosphate, which when I looked that up I found to be composed of Nitrogen, Hydrogen, Phosphorus, and Oxygen. The only thing that made me scratch my head was phosphorus. I might look up what the phosphorus is doing in there now. I might also look up what is in this nutrient blend that isn't on the label, as I assumed that if minerals were such a large portion of the blend that something would be on the label.

2. I guess I should have clarified that by saying "don't use R/O water unless you are going to add minerals back to the water". I made an assumption (partly based on this being the "beginners" portion of the forum) that the original poster was using bottled or filtered tap water and didn't mess with his water too much besides maybe adding some gypsum. Almost everything I've read about brewing water chem says that unless you absolutely know what you're doing or your tap water is really bad, don't start with R/O water and try to add back minerals. I will research and consider changing my stance on this. I will at least be more specific in the future.

3. I said "A healthy amount" of trub. I guess I should have been more specific here, as sometimes that could be read as "A lot of", although I intended it to mean "the right amount of". I meant that a brewer shouldn't try to completely do without trub, and I wasn't basing that only on one guy's (brulosophy?) experiments, I've seen it myself, read the brulosophy experiment, and I'm pretty sure I read in one of Charlie P's books that trub can be beneficial to yeast. I think our issue here was the word "healthy". And for my part I'll say that the original poster said nothing about trub. Actually the poster didn't say much about what prompted the question and I made another assumption that maybe there was a problem with an odd or slow fermentation.

4. Not sure where you are going with this. I don't believe the original post had any mention of yeast washing/harvesting, although we have made some mentions of yeast starters using nutrient (I know I did). I think (perhaps another dangerous assumption) maybe you feel like we piled on you a bit and weren't entirely fair to you and you were looking for another benefit to using nutrient to help your case. What you said in your #4 spot does make some sense, I just don't see how it ties back to what I was saying.

Thanks again for taking the time to separate out the good from the bad, it might help someone who looks up this thread later, and it will certainly help me to make more thoughtful posts in the future. If you are ever in the U.S. midwest/great lakes area feel free to send me a message.

 

[p_p]

Oh my ..... Well, thank you all.

I have a follow up question:

It's true that zinc is lacking in wort. But I don't think that anything else is lacking in wort made primarily of malted barley, and I get some zinc from my copper wort chiller.

You have considerably more copper in your system than me. I only have a copper washer that I tie to one of the hop bags. Do you think that is sufficient to supplement both copper and zinc deficiencies, if I was to cut down the use of nutrient during boil?

Thanks

 

[Blue-Frog]

My-My! This thread shows the most Polite ATTACK* Resolution I think I have ever seen on line!

Zinc...
What are the options and amts to add?

What are the soucecs for zinc?

Are we talking Zinc Sulfate? What are other sources?

 

[Kent88]

FWIW, according to Charlie P's The Homebrewers Companion the amount of zinc in wort should not exceed 0.2ppm. I don't think we're talking copper anymore, but just for future reference that text says of copper "Professional texts cite trace amounts of about .01 ppm and recommend that levels be kept below 0.1 ppm." and do not exceed 10ppm.

 

[Queequeg]

Do you need it, I doubt it. Do I use it, yes. Noticed any off flavours, no. I kind of look at it like rice hulls, you don't need them most of the time but it is cheap enough insurance. I use modestly, a pitch in a starter and a 1/4 TSP in a 25L batch.