Is this what I need to get started with water additions

[Dhm8484]

Calcium Carbonate-chalk
Calcium Sulfate-gypsum
Magnesium Sulfate-epsom salt
Sodium Bicarbonate-baking soda

Going to build water from distilled, just want the stuff on hand to get me started and in right direction.

 

[bitteritdown]

Replace the Calcium Carbonate with Pickling Lime. Chalk is too hard to dissolve.

Add Calcium Chloride and Sodium Chloride.

Do you know the profile of the water you wish to build?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

1) Skip the Calcium Carbonate unless you understand the proper means whereby to get it into solution, and you are willing to mess with performing this process. It does not go into solution very well if added to water and merely stirred. Therefore most of it will drop out and not accomplish what you are counting upon it to do.

2) Add Calcium Chloride to your list.

 

[FunkedOut]

Very good thread here.
I’m only a couple of brews into this water thing, so take my words with a grain of salt.

I also build up from distilled, and have found that regardless of the type of water I try to build with any of my recipes, I need to add acid. That rules out baking soda.

I’ve found a way to hit the numbers with:
Calcium Chloride
Calcium Sulfate
Magnesium Chloride
Sodium Chloride
Lactic Acid

 

[Dhm8484]

I am going to use distilled water and build profiles according to John palmers numbers in his book, but I'm going to be doing a stout next and was maybe going to follow Dublin water profile

 

[tmendick]

Don't use location water profiles. If you have beersmith use their water profile tool and find the proper color and body profile, i.e. Black Full, Brown Dry, Yellow Balanced etc.

 

[Dhm8484]

Or get close to it as possible

 

[Dhm8484]

I didn't get beersmith yet only thing I ever used has been brewers friend

 

[brewbama]

If you have a carbonation cap and a 2 liter soda bottle, chalk is super easy to dissolve in water. It simply needs acid.

Fill a 2 liter bottle about 2/3 to 3/4 full with a portion of your distilled water, use a funnel to add your desired salts (to include chalk). Squeeze the bottle and install the carbonator cap. Fill with CO2. Shake. The bottle will begin to collapse. Fill with CO2. Shake. The bottle will begin to collapse. Fill with CO2. Shake. The bottle will begin to collapse. Fill with CO2.... Repeat until the bottle no longer collapses. The salts (including chalk) will desolve in the carbolic acidic water. Add the clear brine to your Strike or Sparge water as it is heating. Basta. Maybe 10 minutes.

A hell of a lot easier and faster than building a starter and no one complains about that.

 

[ajdelange]

The salts (including chalk) will desolve in the carbolic acidic

Good heavens. I hope not!

Add the clear brine to your Strike or Sparge water as it is heating...

and the CO2 will escape as the chalk re precipitates.

A hell of a lot easier and faster .

It's actually much easier to just add the chalk to the hot water without fiddling with the CO2. You wind up with the same thing. Undissolved chalk in suspension or piled on the floor of you HLT. Readers: do not try to add alkalinity to a mash with chalk in any form.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dhm8484]

Well okay then lol

 

[brewbama]

Actually it works like a charm and does not precipitate out in my experience. I add it when I am nearly to temp so there’s not enough time to precipitate out.

As a side note I find it humorous Kai referenced you in the tutorial where I learned the technique. LOL http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk

“Figure 11 - ....You'll see more CO2 escape while heating the water but since it is not boiled, enough CO2 remains in solution to keep the chalk dissolved”

 

[flars]

I didn't get beersmith yet only thing I ever used has been brewers friend

Look up Bru'nWater. Older version free online. Great information in the knowledge tab. Easy to use. The extra information will be very helpful.

 

[ajdelange]

Actually it works like a charm and does not precipitate out in my experience. I add it when I am nearly to temp so there’s not enough time to precipitate out.

You are assuming (as did Kai,apparently) that if you can't see it it hasn't precipitated. When I first really figured out what was going on I had dissolved chalk in acid adding acid until the pH was well below neutral and the solution crystal clear (or so I thought). But the amount of acid added was not stoichimetric with the amount of chalk dissolved and the pH kept climbing. I just left things alone to see what happened and found that the pH was still rising the next day. Clearly the reaction was not complete. It is the fact that a solution made in the way that you advocate continues to contribute alkalinity for 24 hours that concerns me. You add enough to get your mash pH but those microcrystals keep absorbing protons for days raising your kettle and fermenter pH. There are better ways to get some alkalinity into mash than carbonate.

As a side note I find it humorous Kai referenced you in the tutorial where I learned the technique. LOL

If you read that paper I don't think you will find this method discussed or advocated. But it has been a long time since I wrote it. I freely admit that I now know a lot more about this subject than when I wrote that paper.

“Figure 11 - ....You'll see more CO2 escape while heating the water but since it is not boiled, enough CO2 remains in solution to keep the chalk dissolved”

Ca++ + 2HCO3- <--> CaCO3 + H2O + CO2

The CO2 that leaves comes from the decomposition of the two bicarbonates into carbonic acid (which in turn quickly decomposes into water and CO2) and a carbonate ion which is quiclkly grabbed by a calcium ion and precipitated. This if CO2 leaves the solution CaCO3 has to as well. The statement is thus incorrect. What happens is that microcrystals form which would require a microscope to see.

At higher temperature equilibrium is reached pretty quickly. You have made water super saturated both with respect to CaCO3 and CO2. Why do you think it will stay in equilibrium - especially when heated and stirred? Note: The alkalinity of water in equilibrium with the atmosphere over chalk is about 1 mEq/L.

I guess I should also note that at one time I thought this was the answer to a lot of brewing problems and even considered setting up a garage business to make calcium bicarbonate solution for sale to home brewers. Then reality set it.

 

[Dhm8484]

I should mention that I am doing biab with full volume mash and no sparge if that makes a difference I assume I can add all salts and additions to the mash water and then dough in

 

[ajdelange]

Yes.

 

[mabrungard]

Calcium Carbonate-chalk
Calcium Sulfate-gypsum
Magnesium Sulfate-epsom salt
Sodium Bicarbonate-baking soda

As mentioned, don't even think about chalk. Since you've already listed sodium bicarb, you don't need any other alkalinity source.

Including lactic acid, calcium chloride, and sodium chloride is all you should ever need. Those that are sticking with high alkalinity tap water may have to replace the lactic acid with phosphoric acid due to taste impacts. That's not an issue when starting with distilled or RO water.

 

[Dhm8484]

Okay so I will go with sodium bicard,lactic acid,calcium chloride, sodium chloride

 

[Dhm8484]

To get me started

 

[SEndorf]

Whoa... Cart before the horse.
Dhm8484, you said you wanted to be pointed in the right direction.
I would recommend you do a search the Brew Science forum. Keywords: AJdelange and Mabrungard.
Dust off your Chemistry primer and be prepared to taker copious notes.
Frankly, for me, the most informative information is when AJ and Martin have civil and respectful disagreements.
Diverse viewpoints are always valuable.
If you want to take your water to the next level, take my advise.

 

[Dhm8484]

I will have to check that out...like I said I was getting ready to buy the things I needed as far as salts and additions to get me started ie know what to buy

 

[brewbama]

You are assuming (as did Kai,apparently) that if you can't see it it hasn't precipitated. When I first really figured out what was going on I had dissolved chalk in acid adding acid until the pH was well below neutral and the solution crystal clear (or so I thought). But the amount of acid added was not stoichimetric with the amount of chalk dissolved and the pH kept climbing. I just left things alone to see what happened and found that the pH was still rising the next day. Clearly the reaction was not complete. It is the fact that a solution made in the way that you advocate continues to contribute alkalinity for 24 hours that concerns me. You add enough to get your mash pH but those microcrystals keep absorbing protons for days raising your kettle and fermenter pH. There are better ways to get some alkalinity into mash than carbonate.




If you read that paper I don't think you will find this method discussed or advocated. But it has been a long time since I wrote it. I freely admit that I now know a lot more about this subject than when I wrote that paper.



Ca++ + 2HCO3- <--> CaCO3 + H2O + CO2

The CO2 that leaves comes from the decomposition of the two bicarbonates into carbonic acid (which in turn quickly decomposes into water and CO2) and a carbonate ion which is quiclkly grabbed by a calcium ion and precipitated. This if CO2 leaves the solution CaCO3 has to as well. The statement is thus incorrect. What happens is that microcrystals form which would require a microscope to see.

At higher temperature equilibrium is reached pretty quickly. You have made water super saturated both with respect to CaCO3 and CO2. Why do you think it will stay in equilibrium - especially when heated and stirred? Note: The alkalinity of water in equilibrium with the atmosphere over chalk is about 1 mEq/L.

I guess I should also note that at one time I thought this was the answer to a lot of brewing problems and even considered setting up a garage business to make calcium bicarbonate solution for sale to home brewers. Then reality set it.

Interesting. I am by no means a water scientist so I use the information provided by those who are to my advantage such as the linked information I provided. You say “There are better ways to get some alkalinity into mash than carbonate.” but you offer no solution. I imagine slaked lime or pickling lime but I do not want to place words in your mouth.

I will not descend into ad hominem but must say I find your delivery method so off putting that the information is nearly useless to me. Possibly others can use it.

Cheers.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) is all I use to provide alkalinity. For me it is rarely necessary, as most of the beers I brew do not require it.

Ca(OH)2 (calcium hydroxide, also called pickling lime or slaked lime) will work also, but it is far more dangerous to handle so I don't mess with it.

 

[ajdelange]

Interesting. I am by no means a water scientist so I use the information provided by those who are to my advantage such as the linked information I provided.

The problem you face is that you don't know which things you see on the internet are steering you in the right direction and which are steering you away from it. You can generally rely on what Kai publishes. He was an early pioneer in much of this. But that doesn't mean you can take everything he says as gospel because when he wrote some of that stuff he didn't know everything he knows now. He has doubtless learned much since he wrote the paper you linked to. I certainly have. And you should take that to mean that you can't necessarily accept as gospel anything I, or anyone else, wrote in that time frame either - including the Cerevesia paper. Lots of the old stuff (like the stuff on Kai's website) is good stuff - but it may not be completely up to date. But there is lots of stuff out on the web that you need to avoid like the plague. And the same goes for the old home brewing books. And even the old text books. What this, in effect, means is that you have to study all these sources and others yourself to the point where you understand the chemistry. Well, at least to the point that you understand what Ca++ + 2HCO3- <--> CaCO3 + H2O + CO2 says with regard to what happens when CO2 leaves a saturated solution. That is, admittedly, a burden that few wish to assume but it is really the only way to tell what you can rely on and what you can't.

While on the subject of Ca++ + 2HCO3- <--> CaCO3 + H2O + CO2 and to get a little brewing science in to this post let me rephrase what I said in #14 a bit. To the extent that CO2 leaves the solution so does CaCO3 (lose 1 mmol of CO2, lose 1 mmol CaCO3). This also means that to the extent that added (in the pressurization process) CO2 stays in solution so will the CaCO3 it dissolved. So Kai's statement isn't completely incorrect. The problematic part is that his assumption is that a significant portion of the CO2 (and CaCO3) stay in solution. I don't believe that to be true. The solution is, from the instant the pressurized container is opened, trying to get to 1 mEq/L each calcium hardness and alkalinity. It doesn't do that instantaneously for sure. In fact it doesn't do that overnight - until you heat and agitate. Then the loss is much faster. If you see bubbles leaving the liquid you can be certain that CaCO3 microcrystals are being formed.

You say “There are better ways to get some alkalinity into mash than carbonate.” but you offer no solution. I imagine slaked lime or pickling lime but I do not want to place words in your mouth.

Yes, those two (the difference between slaked lime and pickling lime is that the former is what they call it at the home improvement store and the latter what they call it at the super market) plus sodium bicarbonate. You can also use potassium or sodium hydroxide but I generally don't talk about those because of their inherent nastiness if not properly handled. Sodium bicarbonate is usually the first choice because if only a little alkalinity is needed then not too much sodium is added to the beer. If a lot of alkalinity is needed then a lot of sodium is added and if you add a lot of bicarbonate to a liquor in which you have supplemented the calcium you are essentially in the same boat as with chalk additions: CaCO3 is going to precipitate.

The problem with lime, Ca(OH)2, is that it reacts with CO2 in the air to form CaCO3 so that the pickling line you buy at the supermarket probably contains a fair amount of chalk which, as noted, we don't want in our mash (or wort really). There are workarounds for this but they get involved. Best, I suppose, is to make a milk, centrifuge it or let it settle and decant the clear liquid assuming that to be saturated Ca(OH)2.

I will not descend into ad hominem but must say I find your delivery method so off putting that the information is nearly useless to me. Possibly others can use it.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Your comment that you can't use it but you assume others may be able to suggests that you don't understand at least part of what I am saying and assuming that others do or can. But how would that tempt you to launch an ad hominem attack? If you have suggestions as to how I make make things clearer, fire away.

 

[ajdelange]

Ca(OH)2 (calcium hydroxide, also called pickling lime or slaked lime) will work also, but it is far more dangerous to handle so I don't mess with it.

Not dangerous at all. People use it as a source of calcium to crisp pickles. You are doubtless thinking of "quick" lime, CaO. The hydration reaction is very exothermic to the point that if a bag of it gets wet it can burst into flame.

 

[mabrungard]

Not dangerous at all. People use it as a source of calcium to crisp pickles. You are doubtless thinking of "quick" lime, CaO. The hydration reaction is very exothermic to the point that if a bag of it gets wet it can burst into flame.

Well, I agree that its not super dangerous. But lime does demand serious respect. Since it dissociates into calcium and hydroxyl (OH-) ions, those hydroxyl ions are very reactive and will burn eyes, mucous membrane, and skin. Contrast those dangers with the relatively benign action of the bicarbonate ions in baking soda.

I do prefer the addition of calcium by using lime, but there really is little or no penalty in adding the sodium from baking soda.

 

[ajdelange]

All chemicals demand serious respect. I would not put lime (slaked or quick) in my eye but then I wouldn't put sodium bicarbonate in my eye either. Nor for that matter, calcium chloride. On the NFPA scale it is as much of a health hazard as Ca(OH)2 i.e. they are both rated 2 ("Intense or continued but not chronic exposure could cause temporary incapacitation or possible residual injury (e.g. diethyl ether, ammonium phosphate, iodine)" ). So let's try to keep some perspective here. If you choose another source for alkalinity because of fear of the health risk (NaHCO3 is rated 1) then you shouldn't use calcium chloride either. Note that some pickle crisping products are CaCl2 and others Ca(OH)2. It's the calcium that lends the crispness.

As for the hydroxyl ions I thought I'd do a simple experiment (don't try this at home kids) based on what happens with lye (which is dangerous enough that I steer home brewers away from it) when you get a solution of it on you. This is not a good thing but if you act quickly you will be OK. The OH- ions immediately neutralize the stearic (and similar acids) in your skin oils forming Na(anion) otherwise known to us as "soap". Thus your skin feels slippery when exposed to lye and it takes a lot of water to rinse off even a little NaOH solution to the point where your skin doesn't feel slippery. The same is not true of Ca(OH)2 when applied to the skin. There is no slippery effect (and as of a half hour no burn or irritation either) so apparently the hydroxyl ion activity is much lower with Ca(OH)2 which is what we'd expect with its pKb's of 1.37 and 2.43 (as compared to lye's which is -0.93).

So there is really no reason to be any more afraid of pickling lime (Ca(OH)2) than pickling crisp (CaCl2) - if there were they wouldn't sell both to housewives for kitchen use would they? (Still no skin burns after an hour and I repeat that I do not want others to try my experiment). In the case of any of NaHCO3, CaCl2 or Ca(OH2) don't put them in your eyes (or parts of your body where there are mucous membranes) and if working in a dewatering facility, for example, where they are throwing it around in bags, wear a respirator.

The main reason to stay clear of Ca(OH)2 is what I mentioned in No. 24 and that is that you don't know how much CaCO3 is in it and have to work around that problem. The problem with sodium bicarbonate is that if you have used lots of CaCl2 and/or CaSO3 to get either of those anions that you are going to wind up in the same boat as if you used CaCO3. In a nutshell, it seems that whatever you do involving bicarbonate or carbonate you are going to wind up with an effective alkalinity of between 1 and 2 mEq/L once things heat up. It is probably better to select a more alkaline base malt or use less acidic colored malts than to try to build the alkalinity of the water by addition of bicarbonate or carbonate. This is not a problem with lime (if you can eliminate the chalk in it).