Is this a reasonable water profile?

[LovesIPA]

I brewed an American Ale a while ago and I just wanted to check and see if this is a good water profile. I use RO water from a glacier water vending machine. I've never tested the water that comes out of it, but they are supposed to be very good at delivering close to as pure H2O as you can reasonably afford.

Here's the grain bill (5.25 gallon batch):

3lb 4oz Maris Otter
3lb 4oz GW 2-row pale malt
1lb 10oz Munich (9L)
12 oz crystal 40

My mash volume is 3.4 gallons. Sparge volume is 5.2 gallons. Here's what I use for water mineral additions (I calculate these from the Bru 'n' Water spreadsheet):

Mash:
1.4g CaSO4 (Gypsum)
1.4g MgSO4 (Epsom salt)
1.4g CaCl2

Sparge:
2.1g CaSO4
2.1g MgSO4
2.1g CaCl2

Is this reasonable? Does this sound right? I'm just trying to find out if I've been doing this right.

 

[mabrungard]

Its difficult to assess what you are creating based on the mass of the additions. You should talk about the concentrations of the various ions instead.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, those are very reasonable starting additions (see the Primer). Brew the beer, taste it with experimental incremental additions and decide based on those tastings whether you want more or less sulfate and chloride in subsequent brews. You can skip the MgSO4 but it doesn't hurt to have some. Initially it might be best to leave it out so that you only have two things to tweak instead of 3. You will probably need some acid. A percent or two sauermalz should fill the bill.

 

[ColoradoJon]

Since you are using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet, what are the following values under finished water profile?

Sulfate ppm
Chloride ppm
Bicarbonate ppm
SO4/CI Ratio

 

[LovesIPA]

Ca: 54.4
Mg: 10.4
Sulfate: 101.2
Chloride: 55
Bicarbonate: 16
SO4/Cl ratio: 1.8

The mash pH would be 5.4. I don't need to add any acid to the mash, do I? Plus I've heard that the acid on sauermalz is not necessarily evenly applied and it can produce inconsistent results in small quantities as a result. I bought a bottle of lactic acid and a dropper but I haven't had to use it yet.

 

[ajdelange]

The mash pH would be 5.4.

I'd estimate mash pH at 5.5 but then I don't know any more about the actual malts you are using than whatever you used to estimate 5.4 does.

I don't need to add any acid to the mash, do I?

Even if the actual pH were as high as 5.5 you wouldn't need acid really but it might make for a better beer.

Plus I've heard that the acid on sauermalz is not necessarily evenly applied and it can produce inconsistent results in small quantities as a result.

Where did you hear that? It is actually hand-painted onto each grain by skilled German elves. If you believe this furphy then buy two separate bags and mix them thoroughly. Could be perfectly true but I've never heard it before and certainly have never experienced irregular performance from it (though I usually use a couple of pounds per brew).

 

[mchrispen]

That is a good finished profile. I tend to go heavier on the sulfates personally and would drop the Epsom addition unless you know you want the magnesium (replace it with gypsum). That said - it is not enough magnesium to create a flavor issue as near as I can tell.

Bru'n's prediction puts you right in the middle range for good extraction - I would not mess with it.

Yes - lactic acid can provide a more precise control over mash pH than sauermalz, but the latter is more traditional. I think opinions vary here, either will work. Please make sure to use a calibrated pH meter when using liquid acid.

 

[LovesIPA]

I'd estimate mash pH at 5.5 but then I don't know any more about the actual malts you are using than whatever you used to estimate 5.4 does.

I don't know any more about the malts than what Bru 'n' Water tells me.

Where did you hear that? It is actually hand-painted onto each grain by skilled German elves. If you believe this furphy then buy two separate bags and mix them thoroughly. Could be perfectly true but I've never heard it before and certainly have never experienced irregular performance from it (though I usually use a couple of pounds per brew).

lol

I couldn't tell you where I heard it but it makes sense that the application of the acid wouldn't be completely consistent.

 

[ColoradoJon]

Ca: 54.4
Mg: 10.4
Sulfate: 101.2
Chloride: 55
Bicarbonate: 16
SO4/Cl ratio: 1.8

The mash pH would be 5.4. I don't need to add any acid to the mash, do I? Plus I've heard that the acid on sauermalz is not necessarily evenly applied and it can produce inconsistent results in small quantities as a result. I bought a bottle of lactic acid and a dropper but I haven't had to use it yet.

Personally I think your sulfate to chloride ratio is too high. I struggled for a while with my 'pure rocky mountain well water' until I had it tested and began modifying it via Bru'n Water. Before I began modifying my water I *always* had a strange astringent, metallic taste to my beers, regardless of style or recipe. I struggled for about a year, modifying my process and worrying about infections until I discovered my ion ratio was out of whack.

I've found that a sulfate to chloride ratio around 1.0 or less produces a better beer. In my case, with my water, at least. I shoot for a ratio around 0.8 and that makes the best beers with my water.

Bicarbonates at 16 and a pH of 5.4 is right in there, in my opinion, for an all grain process.

 

[LovesIPA]

Bru'n Water says that a SO4/Cl ratio of >2 is very bitter, 2.0 is bitter, 1.3 is balanced, 0.75 is malty and 0.5 is very malty.

I brew a lot of IPA's, most of which lean towards bitter. The profile that I grabbed these numbers from is for a bitter, amber beer. How do you get the high sulfate concentration for IPA's but keep the chloride level low, while still keeping a SO4/Cl ratio of less than 1.0?

 

[ajdelange]

Bru'n Water says that a SO4/Cl ratio of >2 is very bitter, 2.0 is bitter, 1.3 is balanced, 0.75 is malty and 0.5 is very malty.

A bitter beer is one that contains lots of bittering principle whatever its chloride and sulfate ratio. A malty beer is one that contains a lot of malt. To adjust bitterness adjust hops. To adjust maltiness adjust malt. To balance malt and hops use an amount of malt consistent with a balanced profile and be sure to mash at a temperature that puts you where you need to be on the dry - sweet spectrum.

Sulfate has an effect on the way in which hops bitterness is perceived. Very bitter lagers can be (and are) made with low sulfate waters. If the sulfate is increased the fine bitterness, which is tolerable at quite high levels, becomes coarse and unpleasant (this is especially so for beers made with noble hops).

Choride has an entirely separate flavor effect on beer. It improves body, adds a hint of sweetness and rounds the flavors - just as it does in other forms of cooking. It doesn't make the beer 'maltier' unless you define malty and sweet to be the same thing and to me they aren't.

Chloride and sulfate each have their own effects and brewers need to learn what they are. This is easily done by tasting finished beer with small additions of sulfate and/or chloride added in the glass.

I brew a lot of IPA's, most of which lean towards bitter. The profile that I grabbed these numbers from is for a bitter, amber beer. How do you get the high sulfate concentration for IPA's but keep the chloride level low, while still keeping a SO4/Cl ratio of less than 1.0?

You don't worry about the ratio. You use as much sulfate as you think gives you the best tasting beer and you choose your chloride levels based on the same criterion. Some people do not like what sulfate does to bitterness, even when when noble cultivars are not involved. I am such a person and apparently ColoradoJon is another. You need to find out whether you are or not. Again, experimentation with the salts in finished beer is a good way to get an idea on this and on how to determine whether to add more sulfate or chloride to a beer you have already brewed (next time you brew it).

Chloride to sulfate ratio is a perfect example of the way in which the home brewing community can take something out of context and elevate it to axiom status. Another is the relationship between RA and beer color. I've been able to topple that one but chloride/sulfate has been more stubborn.

 

[LovesIPA]

A bitter beer is one that contains lots of bittering principle whatever its chloride and sulfate ratio. A malty beer is one that contains a lot of malt. To adjust bitterness adjust hops. To adjust maltiness adjust malt. To balance malt and hops use an amount of malt consistent with a balanced profile and be sure to mash at a temperature that puts you where you need to be on the dry - sweet spectrum.

I just copied those numbers right from the Bru'N Water spreadsheet. I don't interpret the comments to mean that SO4:Cl ratio is what determines maltiness or bitterness, but rather compliments them.

Chloride to sulfate ratio is a perfect example of the way in which the home brewing community can take something out of context and elevate it to axiom status. Another is the relationship between RA and beer color. I've been able to topple that one but chloride/sulfate has been more stubborn.

In the interest of full disclosure, I started this thread to get feedback on my water profile because I have another thread going where I'm trying to track down what I think is an infection problem. Others insist that I'm mangling my water profile and this is what's causing 2/3 of the beer I make to sour and become undrinkable to the point where I'm dumping nearly full kegs out.

I don't think it's the water profile either.

 

[mabrungard]

I dislike the use of 'malty or bitter' regarding the ratio, but it is an artifact from at least one reference. Another reference I have refers to the characteristic as 'full or dry' regarding the ratio. I think that AJ and I prefer that description better than malty or bitter.

I had long ago updated the Water Knowledge page of the Bru'n Water website to reflect this improved description for the ratio, but I need to update the Bru'n Water software too!

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[ColoradoJon]

My results and preference (sulfate to chloride ratio) are based entirely on my use of well water. It took me a long time of adjusting my water a little bit at a time in order to solve my off-flavor problem, which was prevalent in all beers that I made (extract, partial mash, all-grain, didn't matter). I spent a full year adjusting my process, worrying about sanitization, etc., before I had my water tested and began using the Bru'n Water spreadsheet.

My results may be totally different than yours as my well water is not RO water built up with minerals. However, I do suggest starting with a more balanced sulfate to chloride ratio or better yet a higher chloride to sulfate ratio just to get an idea of the effect.

Then adjust your sulfates up from there to get the flavor profile that suits you best.