Is there a trend against crystal malts?

[slym2none]

Thank you for the info!

 

[stevedasleeve]

Whatever, trends and fads have no effect on my brewing. I use Crystal in every beer except black beers. I really like UK medium (60 or so) Crystal malts and have grown to like Golden Naked Oats which is crystal oat malt. In my IPAs I'm usually adding 8 oz, for session beers, which are now 50% of what I brew, upwards of 16 oz. Ambers 1.5 lbs is normal. I don't like crystal at all in hoppy black beers, wheat beers, or stouts. FWIW, and YMMV, and WTF etc.

Cheers!
Steve da sleeve

 

[Patrick87]

FWIW, one of the best extract IPA's I've made so far didn't have any crystal malt in it, just 1 lb. of steeped Victory malt and Munton's "Light" DME. Bittered with Summit and flavored/dry hopped with Falconer's Flight.

 

[slym2none]

FWIW, one of the best extract IPA's I've made so far didn't have any crystal malt in it, just 1 lb. of steeped Victory malt and Munton's "Light" DME. Bittered with Summit and flavored/dry hopped with Falconer's Flight.

Recipe?

 

[Beernik]

And to reiterate, ALL sweetness is either fermentable or non-fermentable, making fermentability necessarily part of the discussion on crystal malt.

You know the random usage of caps lock totally makes your argument.

Or not.

Not all sweetness is fermentability vs non-fermentability. I'm talking about apparent sweetness. Apparent sweetness is not directly related to the actual amount of sugar in something. It's related to acidity, saltiness, fruitiness, flavor, texture, and aroma among other things.

For instance, you can mix sugar with lemon juice and still have a tart flavor because of the acidity. It takes quite a bit of sugar to overcome the tartness of the acidity and end up with a sweet lemonade.

Depending upon the lovibond of it, caramel malt flavors a are described as "candy like, mild caramel, sweet caramel, pronounced caramel, toffee, and burnt sugar". Those are not changed during fermentation. All of those flavors are ones your brain expects to taste sweet. You put those flavors in anything and your brain will make it taste sweeter than if they were not there.

If you use enough caramel malt so that you get a notocable candy/caramel/toffee flavor in your beer, you are going to perceive the beer as sweeter (regardless of the FG) than if you had kept those flavors from your beer and hit the same FG.

 

[marcownz747]

You know the random usage of caps lock totally makes your argument.

Or not.

Not all sweetness is fermentability vs non-fermentability. I'm talking about apparent sweetness. Apparent sweetness is not directly related to the actual amount of sugar in something. It's related to acidity, saltiness, fruitiness, flavor, texture, and aroma among other things.

For instance, you can mix sugar with lemon juice and still have a tart flavor because of the acidity. It takes quite a bit of sugar to overcome the tartness of the acidity and end up with a sweet lemonade.

Depending upon the lovibond of it, caramel malt flavors a are described as "candy like, mild caramel, sweet caramel, pronounced caramel, toffee, and burnt sugar". Those are not changed during fermentation. All of those flavors are ones your brain expects to taste sweet. You put those flavors in anything and your brain will make it taste sweeter than if they were not there.

If you use enough caramel malt so that you get a notocable candy/caramel/toffee flavor in your beer, you are going to perceive the beer as sweeter (regardless of the FG) than if you had kept those flavors from your beer and hit the same FG.

And if you use that caramel malt in a higher diastatic power wort, rather than steeping it at the end, many of those caramel flavors and aromas are broken down a bit further and create a slightly more astringent aromas, helping to mitigate that apparent sweetness.

I'm not saying that Caramel malt imparts no sweetness. I'm saying that the level of sweetness it imparts is influenced heavily by when you add it to the mash. Either way you have caramel or toffee aromas, yes. But depending on where you add it you have a different ratio of caramelized simple sugars and caramelized polysaccharides. A higher ratio of caramelized simple sugars increases fermentability, reduces actual sweetness in the final product, and heavily influences the direct and perceived sweetness.

For instance, if you caramelize sucrose... yes, it will be perceived in the final product as sweeter than a straight table sugar fermentation, but due to its high fermentability, it will also have a more astringent flavor to it. Doing the same thing with caramelized maltose, you will have an even sweeter final product, due to the maltose being less fermentable by yeast.

Adding your caramel malt early in the mash helps convert some of the polysaccharides in the malt into more simple sugars.

Sure, caramel aromas increase perceived sweetness, but that effect can be mitigated, so long as you're doing an AG brew.

 

[Owly055]

And if you use that caramel malt in a higher diastatic power wort, rather than steeping it at the end, many of those caramel flavors and aromas are broken down a bit further and create a slightly more astringent aromas, helping to mitigate that apparent sweetness.

I'm not saying that Caramel malt imparts no sweetness. I'm saying that the level of sweetness it imparts is influenced heavily by when you add it to the mash. Either way you have caramel or toffee aromas, yes. But depending on where you add it you have a different ratio of caramelized simple sugars and caramelized polysaccharides. A higher ratio of caramelized simple sugars increases fermentability, reduces actual sweetness in the final product, and heavily influences the direct and perceived sweetness.

For instance, if you caramelize sucrose... yes, it will be perceived in the final product as sweeter than a straight table sugar fermentation, but due to its high fermentability, it will also have a more astringent flavor to it. Doing the same thing with caramelized maltose, you will have an even sweeter final product, due to the maltose being less fermentable by yeast.

Adding your caramel malt early in the mash helps convert some of the polysaccharides in the malt into more simple sugars.

Sure, caramel aromas increase perceived sweetness, but that effect can be mitigated, so long as you're doing an AG brew.

Perceived sweetness is the ONLY sweetness that really matters.... obviously. The drinker's perception rather than the chemical analysis is what makes a good beer. With this in mind, I'm planning to use less crystal along with very small amounts of midnight wheat for color. The perception a drinker gets from a beer is based on many factors, and the visual perception is far more important than one might imagine. Your first impression of a person is visual, and it has a huge impact on how you relate to that person initially. The same is true of a beer. Color, Aroma, Flavor....... your mind processes all these things and spits out your reaction to the beer.


H.W.

 

[stpug]

I have an american amber ale on tap right now with 2.625 lbs of crystal malts (>26% of grainbill in 5 gallons) and it doesn't come across as very "sweet". Caramel/toffee-forward maybe but not overly sweet. Granted, it's balanced well with hops

 

[marcownz747]

Perceived sweetness is the ONLY sweetness that really matters.... obviously. The drinker's perception rather than the chemical analysis is what makes a good beer. With this in mind, I'm planning to use less crystal along with very small amounts of midnight wheat for color. The perception a drinker gets from a beer is based on many factors, and the visual perception is far more important than one might imagine. Your first impression of a person is visual, and it has a huge impact on how you relate to that person initially. The same is true of a beer. Color, Aroma, Flavor....... your mind processes all these things and spits out your reaction to the beer.


H.W.

I never said perceived sweetness wasn't important. I said that the perceived sweetness can be mitigated, and in some cases reduced almost entirely, by using the Crystal Malt at different times in the mash.

Actual sweetness DOES matter, though, as it directly impacts perceived sweetness. A sweet aroma with an astringent or acidic mouthfeel might make you think the beer is slightly sweeter, but it will still taste significantly less sweet than the same aroma paired with unfermentable polysaccharides.

 

[Homercidal]

What I find interesting is that I too notice fewer recipes are calling for Crystal.

I also find it interesting that everyoen seems to think all crystal malts provide only color and sweetness. In reality the different crystal malts provide unique flavors, not just color and "sweetness".

I use less crystal than I did, but I don't make a lot of my own recipes. I do tend to use 8 ounces in some pale ales and IPAs. I don't prefer them too dry.

And crystal malts are absolutely necessary for some styles.

But the bottom line is that I think a lot of people who used to use a fair amount of crystal in their pale ales are now using less as their tastes change.

 

[Owly055]

I never said perceived sweetness wasn't important. I said that the perceived sweetness can be mitigated, and in some cases reduced almost entirely, by using the Crystal Malt at different times in the mash.

Actual sweetness DOES matter, though, as it directly impacts perceived sweetness. A sweet aroma with an astringent or acidic mouthfeel might make you think the beer is slightly sweeter, but it will still taste significantly less sweet than the same aroma paired with unfermentable polysaccharides.

I wasn't trying to get into a "food fight" here....... just to point out that perception is all that ultimately matters. Drinking beer is a complex sensory experience, and we as brewers work to enhance that experience in various ways as our own personal preferences change and those of our friends.

I'm curious about the process of adding crystal malts at different stages of the mash. I do BIAB, so there really aren't distinct "stages". I grind all my grains together and mash them together. Should I for example add CR 75 10 minutes before draining the bag? And if I did, what would the result be? Also what about steeping grains...... I've never used steeping grains. It looks to me like the conversion has already taken place.... that after all is nature reason for crystal malts.

H.W.

 

[Opiate42]

Just something I have noticed in the last few weeks being repeated. Recipes without Crystal malts. I only started brewing last year, but I remember seeing Crystal in most if the recipes I found. Is this a thing?

I dunno..... beer shouldn't have "trends". That it does makes me giggle.

If I feel like throwing some in, I do. If not... I don't.

 

[Patrick87]

Recipe?

I don't have it in front of me, but it went something like:

5.5 gallon batch (start w/ 5.5 gallons water, top off @ end for evaporation)

Steep 1lb Victory Malt for 20 minutes at ~155*F in 5.5 gallons water.

60 Min: 3lb Muntons Light DME
60 Min: 1 tablespoon Gypsum
60 Min: 1 oz Summit

10 Min: 1 oz Summit
10 Min: 4lb Muntons Light DME
10 Min: Whirlfloc tablet

0 Min/Flameout: 3 oz Falconer's Flight (hopstand at 170*F for 20 minutes)

Dry Hop: 4oz Falconer's Flight (5 days at room temp)

This one turned out to be one of, if not the best beer I've brewed to date (for my taste). It was very bitter, but had great citrusy/hoppy flavor and aroma.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Attenuation is just as important as malt bill. You can do a SMaSH but with poor attenuation and low amount of hops and you will get a beer thats just as 'cloyingly' sweet as a beer with a significant amount of crystal malts.

I found when I simplified a recipe for a stout with flaked rye, it was much less popular (by a significant amount, homebrew club, family, friends, SWMBO). Original recipe has 8oz each of 60L 80L and 120L, used S04 yeast and it fermented pretty dry with a mash temp in the 152F range. Second attempt I cut the crystal malts by 8oz and used a blend of 120L and British Medium Crystal. Everyone prefered the original with more crystal malts, though none said it was "sweet", and the mouthfeel was never cloying. (not to mention between the time I brewed the first batch and the 2nd batch, was about an 9 month span so I had gotten a LOT better at brewing in that time so the 2nd version I brewed much 'better' than the first batch)

 

[azazel1024]

Blonde, burnette, redhead. Different malts for different beers, just like different ladies for...oh, my wife might read this

I use crystal in probably half my beers, but I rarely use much. About 8oz per 5 gallons. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. I don't think I've ever used more than a pound in 5 gallons. At least IMHO, the darker crystal malts are more my style. To me they tend to leave a bit more complexity, plum, raisin, toffee than they do caramel and sweetness. 80L is generally my "lower limit" for what I'll use more than half a pound in 5 gallons for.

What I tend to use them in are British and American ales, sometimes UK and American lagers to. I'll use a small amount (SMALL!) of Caravienne or Caramunich in some german styles, but I'll use something like 4oz in 3 gallons or less.

But it depends, sometimes I'll make a UK stout with none (going for dry, where I might use 80% 2-row, 10% Roasted barley and 10% chocolate or coffee malt) or I'll go with a "regular" UK stout where I might use 4-8oz of 80-120L and maybe switch up a pound of the 2-row for some Vienna malt, or swap out all of the base for Mild or MO/Golden Promise.

 

[masaba]

I think that the reduction of crystal malts is in direct correlation to the severe overuse of the word "cloying" when describing beer.

 

[bobbrews]

Re: Is there a trend against crystal malts?

The correct answer is: Only for American IPAs


0-5% pale crystal malt on average is typically best for this style.

 

[MattyIce]

I think that the reduction of crystal malts is in direct correlation to the severe overuse of the word "cloying" when describing beer.

Another trend I noticed haha

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

i rarely use crystal or other specialty grains in ANY beer. Using high quality Maris Otter in most of my Ales (Not Belgian or German) makes crystal malt unnecessary as you want to taste the malt without distraction of specialty grains. Quality pale ale malts and german pils, munich, and vienna malt, ditto, as style appropriate.

Crystal has a place in certain specific recipes like a Red Ale or Brown ale, but not in IPA's, Pale Ales, Porters, Stouts, even ESB. If you use a really nice base malt it is totally unncessary. Crystal malt is very useful though in adding character to extract brews, and I am not talking about that at all.

If you are using cheap base malt, you do need to compensate for malt flavor by using crystal (Briess anyone?). I have never liked the flavor of Briess or other inexpensive American base malts so I don't use them.

And for those who just like hop tea, whatever....

 

[slym2none]

I don't have it in front of me, but it went something like:

5.5 gallon batch (start w/ 5.5 gallons water, top off @ end for evaporation)

Steep 1lb Victory Malt for 20 minutes at ~155*F in 5.5 gallons water.

60 Min: 3lb Muntons Light DME
60 Min: 1 tablespoon Gypsum
60 Min: 1 oz Summit

10 Min: 1 oz Summit
10 Min: 4lb Muntons Light DME
10 Min: Whirlfloc tablet

0 Min/Flameout: 3 oz Falconer's Flight (hopstand at 170*F for 20 minutes)

Dry Hop: 4oz Falconer's Flight (5 days at room temp)

This one turned out to be one of, if not the best beer I've brewed to date (for my taste). It was very bitter, but had great citrusy/hoppy flavor and aroma.

Thanks, man!

 

[dfhar]

It seems like it's cool to hate on crystal. I agree with Yooper, though - it's like cooking with salt!

I don't put any crystal malt in my helles or kolsch, but I wouldn't brew an ESB without it! 90% golden promise and 10% medium crystal makes a wonderful English bitter.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

when I cook, I start with 3 lbs of salt and end up with one taco.

 

[marcownz747]

I wasn't trying to get into a "food fight" here....... just to point out that perception is all that ultimately matters. Drinking beer is a complex sensory experience, and we as brewers work to enhance that experience in various ways as our own personal preferences change and those of our friends.

I'm curious about the process of adding crystal malts at different stages of the mash. I do BIAB, so there really aren't distinct "stages". I grind all my grains together and mash them together. Should I for example add CR 75 10 minutes before draining the bag? And if I did, what would the result be? Also what about steeping grains...... I've never used steeping grains. It looks to me like the conversion has already taken place.... that after all is nature reason for crystal malts.

H.W.

Crystal malt goes through a conversion process before being kilned. The process isn't as efficient as mashing, and there will still be some polysaccharides left. Adding the Crystal Malt into a high diastatic power mash will help to convert any of those remaining starches, and will help to break down any larger sugars. The higher the diastatic power and the longer the mash, the fewer of these sugars will be left.

Steeping crystal malt has become a pretty popular thing for extract brewers as, in principle, crystal malt is already converted. The fact is, though, the conversion of crystal malt isn't nearly as effective as a proper mash schedule.

The effect of adding crystal to a decent power and length mash results in lighter aroma (as many aromatic compounds are cooked off or denatured in a boil), lighter sweetness (as more of the larger sugars/starches are broken down), and a thinner (and slightly more astringent) mouthfeel, as the compounds which create the aroma of crystal malt tend to be astringent without the presence of any sugar. This is why using caramelized table sugar in a dry wine creates a burnt aroma, rather than a caramel one. The sugars are 100% fermented, leaving only maillard products.

Steeping crystal malt (the most common way I've seen crystal used) creates a much more intense aroma, leaves residual starches and non-fermentable sugars, and creates a thicker, sweeter beer.

This can be demonstrated by doing two beers side by side. Same recipe. With one, add the Crystal during the mash. With the other, steep the Crystal with the hops during the last 15-30 minutes of the boil. You'll see a very clear difference, assuming your Diastatic power is high enough (in your first brew) to convert all of the starches in the mash.

 

[mbobhat]

It can be tempting overdo that's all. Less is more is always a good mantra when making a grain bill. And if all you want is color and a dry finish, you can boil your wort full boil for longer than an hour and get the same affect.

 

[Owly055]

Crystal malt goes through a conversion process before being kilned. The process isn't as efficient as mashing, and there will still be some polysaccharides left. Adding the Crystal Malt into a high diastatic power mash will help to convert any of those remaining starches, and will help to break down any larger sugars. The higher the diastatic power and the longer the mash, the fewer of these sugars will be left.

Steeping crystal malt has become a pretty popular thing for extract brewers as, in principle, crystal malt is already converted. The fact is, though, the conversion of crystal malt isn't nearly as effective as a proper mash schedule.

The effect of adding crystal to a decent power and length mash results in lighter aroma (as many aromatic compounds are cooked off or denatured in a boil), lighter sweetness (as more of the larger sugars/starches are broken down), and a thinner (and slightly more astringent) mouthfeel, as the compounds which create the aroma of crystal malt tend to be astringent without the presence of any sugar. This is why using caramelized table sugar in a dry wine creates a burnt aroma, rather than a caramel one. The sugars are 100% fermented, leaving only maillard products.

Steeping crystal malt (the most common way I've seen crystal used) creates a much more intense aroma, leaves residual starches and non-fermentable sugars, and creates a thicker, sweeter beer.

This can be demonstrated by doing two beers side by side. Same recipe. With one, add the Crystal during the mash. With the other, steep the Crystal with the hops during the last 15-30 minutes of the boil. You'll see a very clear difference, assuming your Diastatic power is high enough (in your first brew) to convert all of the starches in the mash.

I agree with this ........... Your original comment suggested introducing crystal malts to the mash at different points....... not during the boil as compared to during the mash. I will definitely try separating my crystal and steeping it for 15 minutes in the boil as opposed to mashing it. Experiments have been done with with crystal malts in the mash itself which suggest that a great deal of conversion will take place in the mash. Steeping rather than mashing is a method worth playing with.

H.W.

 

[MattyIce]

Crystal malt goes through a conversion process before being kilned. The process isn't as efficient as mashing, and there will still be some polysaccharides left. Adding the Crystal Malt into a high diastatic power mash will help to convert any of those remaining starches, and will help to break down any larger sugars. The higher the diastatic power and the longer the mash, the fewer of these sugars will be left.

Steeping crystal malt has become a pretty popular thing for extract brewers as, in principle, crystal malt is already converted. The fact is, though, the conversion of crystal malt isn't nearly as effective as a proper mash schedule.

The effect of adding crystal to a decent power and length mash results in lighter aroma (as many aromatic compounds are cooked off or denatured in a boil), lighter sweetness (as more of the larger sugars/starches are broken down), and a thinner (and slightly more astringent) mouthfeel, as the compounds which create the aroma of crystal malt tend to be astringent without the presence of any sugar. This is why using caramelized table sugar in a dry wine creates a burnt aroma, rather than a caramel one. The sugars are 100% fermented, leaving only maillard products.

Steeping crystal malt (the most common way I've seen crystal used) creates a much more intense aroma, leaves residual starches and non-fermentable sugars, and creates a thicker, sweeter beer.

This can be demonstrated by doing two beers side by side. Same recipe. With one, add the Crystal during the mash. With the other, steep the Crystal with the hops during the last 15-30 minutes of the boil. You'll see a very clear difference, assuming your Diastatic power is high enough (in your first brew) to convert all of the starches in the mash.

Rockin post! Thank you.

It can be tempting overdo that's all. Less is more is always a good mantra when making a grain bill. And if all you want is color and a dry finish, you can boil your wort full boil for longer than an hour and get the same affect.

Does a longer boil affect fermentability?

 

[funnelweb]

Why not just chill out a bit with Mr Mosher himselfes? Listen and Learn:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2014/05/1...ewing-with-randy-mosher-beersmith-podcast-81/

Br Folke

 

[mbobhat]

Rockin post! Thank you.



Does a longer boil affect fermentability?

I am going to say not as much as say a lb of crystal malt would do unless you boil it forever into molasses. You aren't really carmelizing the sugars on a massive scale but are producing maillard reactions which produce the color and I'm sure wil affect the taste a bit. Plus just boiling longer you have diluted your sugar concentration so it is isn't like doing a decoction, where you take a large portion of the mash without the liquid and boil it for a bit.

 

[balrog]

when I cook, I start with 3 lbs of salt and end up with one taco.

When i have a taco, i put the salt on the margarita glass

 

[Turkeyshot]

When I make a Pale Ale I like to put about 5-10% of Crystal Malt in my grain bill. Which is probably why I like Deschutes Mirror Pond Ale so much.