Is Starsan good desinfectant? (spolier: no)

[brewbama]

Full disclosure: Chlorine dioxide is toxic, hence limits on exposure to it are needed to ensure its safe use. Probably not a good home brew solution without the right knowledge and equipment.

 

[mabrungard]

MMS?? It only took a few seconds to find it. Anything that uses the word "Miracle" has got to make anyone think it's true...right?

Using a ClO2 generator seems unappealing to most homebrewers since that means spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for a piece of equipment. At this point, the sodium chlorite option would be the only method a homebrewer is likely to consider. All you need is food-grade sodium chlorite, water, and some form of acidification to bring the water pH down into the 4.5 to 5.0 range. (It does turn out that the Water Acidification calculator in Bru'n Water is perfect for that).

PS: Don't use anything that uses the term "MMS".

 

[RedlegEd]

The only thing i know that you are aware of is what you have stated; "Get some sodium chlorite powder and mix with water". The ClO2 generators that I work with are NSF-61 certified. Hopefully tour internet queries has not lead you down the path of the pseudoscience of MMS. Neither the FDA or USEPA support MMS, and there have been multiple legal cases brought against people using it.

Using citric acid (CA) is a slower reaction than using HCl or H2SO4. Also when using CA the reaction requires an excess of acid and also doesn't result in the same yield conversion as Cl2/NaClO2 or HCl/NaClO/NaClO2 or H2SO4/NaClO2.

I have not seen commercial examples of CA used as the acid for on-site ClO2 production, and would run some testing to ensure that the reaction was not too exothermic, that there would be no THM or HAA produced, and that citric acid residual would not be detrimental to the water flavor profile.

Hi. After reading this thread with interest, I did my own Google Foo and found this Birko site that was very informative relative to using Chlorine Dioxide in a brewery environment. An extract from that site states:

"For brewers, activation of the sodium chlorite solution with food grade acid is recommended to generate the chlorine dioxide. In one method of activation, citric, lactic, or phosphoric acid is added to drop the pH of the water to between pH 4.5-5. The sodium chlorite is then added to the acidified water to generate chlorine dioxide. This method works well for small volumes of water or with soft water."

I think the biggest disadvantage of using using Chlorine Dioxide by homebrewers is that it's only good for a short while and must be prepared for each use. StarSan and Iodophor can be prepared, stored, and retain their sanitizing properties for a long time. Ed


ETA: @brewbama also stated another very obvious reason for not using it in our home breweries.

Full disclosure: Chlorine dioxide is toxic, hence limits on exposure to it are needed to ensure its safe use. Probably not a good home brew solution without the right knowledge and equipment.

 

[Norselord]

Hi. After reading this thread with interest, I did my own Google Foo and found this Birko site that was very informative relative to using Chlorine Dioxide in a brewery environment. An extract from that site states:

"For brewers, activation of the sodium chlorite solution with food grade acid is recommended to generate the chlorine dioxide. In one method of activation, citric, lactic, or phosphoric acid is added to drop the pH of the water to between pH 4.5-5. The sodium chlorite is then added to the acidified water to generate chlorine dioxide. This method works well for small volumes of water or with soft water."

I think the biggest disadvantage of using using Chlorine Dioxide by homebrewers is that it's only good for a short while and must be prepared for each use. StarSan and Iodophor can be prepared, stored, and retain their sanitizing properties for a long time. Ed


ETA: I think @brewbama also stated another very obvious reason for not using it in our home breweries.

The units that I work with produce ClO2 in a fast and efficient way on-demand. However, they are admittedly designed to produce at least 10g/hr; which, though small, is probably more effective if used on a pico/micro brew scale.

The idea is that the unit is connected to the dedicated water line used for the process requiring ClO2. For example a unit would be connected to the bottling rinse water supply, when water flows the force of the flowing water creates a vacuum (Bernoulli's principle) that sucks precursors into the ClO2 generator and mixes them at the right proportion. This is a nice fail-safe design.

 

[Norselord]

Full disclosure: Chlorine dioxide is toxic, hence limits on exposure to it are needed to ensure its safe use. Probably not a good home brew solution without the right knowledge and equipment.

This is true. You need a qualified water professional, in the same way that you wouldn't try to wire up your own 240V 3phase power without being/consulting an electrician.

 

[brewbama]

this is true. You need a qualified water professional, in the same way that you wouldn't try to wire up your own 240v 3phase power without being/consulting an electrician.

+1

 

[Norselord]

MMS?? It only took a few seconds to find it. Anything that uses the word "Miracle" has got to make anyone think it's true...right?

Using a ClO2 generator seems unappealing to most homebrewers since that means spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars for a piece of equipment. At this point, the sodium chlorite option would be the only method a homebrewer is likely to consider. All you need is food-grade sodium chlorite, water, and some form of acidification to bring the water pH down into the 4.5 to 5.0 range. (It does turn out that the Water Acidification calculator in Bru'n Water is perfect for that).

PS: Don't use anything that uses the term "MMS".

We supply these units in the $20K range, and they are intended for commercial use. Typically we provide them as part of a buy, own, operate (BOO) program, charging a fixed fee per month to include equipment, chemical, and service. It is an economical and efficient option for breweries. This process and equipment is used by Budweiser, MillerCoors, and Sierra Nevada - however this can easily be scaled and made affordable to smaller sized brewing facilities.

And if you happen to be designing and building these units you might even have the wherewithal to make use of one for your personal needs...

 

[bob1852]

Why do we use Starsan when even the company that makes it says it hasn't been tested on yeast?

I personally am more concerned about wild yeast and mold contaminating my beer than e. Coli....

From 5-star themselves (remember, they're the same company that created that snake oil "5.2" product)

Hi Christina,

Thank you for contacting Five Star. I spoke to our chemist and Starsan has not been tested on yeast. So, we can not say if it does or doesn't kill yeast. Our chemist also said that yeast is a larger organism, so typically the cleaners will take care of the yeast and the sanitizer takes care of the smaller bacteria such as e coli. Please let me know if you have any further questions.

Thanks,

Rebecca Ozirsky
Five Star Chemicals & Supply, Inc.

https://club.coopers.com.au/coopers-forum/topic/16003/?page=1

 

[PeteNMA]

We use it because we clean and then sanitize. Your cleaning takes care of the huge majority of the work, sanitiser comes behind that and takes care of the majority of the left overs, and then alcohol and pH does the rest

 

[bob1852]

I'm willing to bet the dozens of microbreweries I've been to over the years that seem to have minor, but persistence, infection issues are probably using Starsan.....thinking that it's more effective than it actually is.

 

[MaryB]

I clean fermenters within 30 minutes of emptying them, or I fill with a concentrated PBW mixture to soak if I want a deeper clean. Not many bugs and molds will survive that alkaline environment either!

The bottom line is that Iodophor is more likely to keep mold and spores off your equipment and StarSan doesn't. When I leave my fermenter drained, but still containing the dregs of the last brew, I noticed that there would be spots of mold growing around the yeast ring in the fermenter. Now that I've switched to using Iodophor most of the time, I haven't seen mold in the fermenter. I don't believe I've changed any of my wort, yeast, or other habits, so I believe that the sanitizer change was useful.

 

[dantheman13]

This result is not surprising. A forum member, S. Cerevisiae, pointed out that StarSan is ineffective on mold and spores. He recommended a weak bleach solution, but I can't go there do to its potential effects on beer flavor. Iodophor is another halogen-based sanitizer that has been widely used in the food service industry. Other than its plastic staining tendencies, Iodophor is a pretty good sanitizer for brewery use.

But I do believe that we are all better off by varying our sanitizer use. That can include occasional use of StarSan, bleach, peracetic acid, etc. All have their benefits and drawbacks, but they are more likely to provide you with a broad spectrum of protection from brewery contaminants.

For now, Iodophor has returned to being my primary sanitizer with the others as pinch-hitters!

Unfortunately the references that Mr. Saccharomyces has read appear to be based on old or questionable Food Science literature, and all of the references out there appear to stem from the same textbook, which doesn't give any references for the actual data and makes some very basic microbiology errors in its claims about acid anionic sanitizers (see Bryan's video below). We have a discussion of this on MTF archived here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/MilkTheFunk/permalink/1436419659719577/ (sorry if you aren't a member). Bryan from Sui Generis, who is an expert on cell wall polarity (I scholar Googled him), also explained why the basis on which the claims that Star San is not active against yeast or mold are not biologically sound: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JC9n50RdVo[/ame]

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

Since we're so concerned about the effectiveness of Starsan, has anyone tried chlorine trifluoride for sanitizing?

 

[RichBenn]

I’m not at all concerned about Starsan. The predominant theme here is that we want the yeast we use to chew up 99+% of the fermentable sugars. When we pitch with 100 million + viable cells and oxygenate for a rapid start, the very few bacteria and yeast cells left over after a thorough clean followed by Starsan never reach sufficient quantities to have ANY perceptible effect on flavor.

There are many other brewing process problems that do, like fermentation temperature, pH during mashing and sparging, oxygen introduction post fermentation, water chemistry, etc. Focus on these things, IMHO.

 

[DanB_cdnbev]

Hi Gang, I have been doing a lot of research on Sanitizers and Disinfectants in the past few weeks, understandably. We got a few new chemical concentrates in, and I was also blowing the dust off some old stock.

I have learned a lot, and there is still a tone to learn.
As to the arguments of Sanitizer vs. Disinfectant, the most common distinction is concentrations and application methods. Many of these Bactericidal, virucidal, and fungicidal chemicals work. You simply need to do your reading. I realize it's very dry at times, but let's be honest, we are all posting on an internet forum on a subject for which there is literally hundreds of years of written research already done and redone, in over 100 languages. I doubt many of us mind a bit of dry reading.

Experiment if you enjoy it, but remember, in the scientific method, a single result is not proof. this is not the Grade 5 Science Fair. Results must be independently repeatable to be a true result and conclusion.

Now, as I am 1st, a Mechanic, and draft equipment installer, by training and experience, I will also put this in "Real World" terms, because as many of us have observed, Engineers and Scientists often fail to account for the fact that real life doesn't happen in laboratory conditions or according to Ashrae or NSF Criteria. The real world is messy, and wonderful, and surprising, and mysterious....
....In this instance, Grandma said it best: "The proof is in the pudding"... or in this case... the worth is in the wort? Sorry....[not really]
What I mean to say is, use what you are comfortable with using, that also works.

Does the beer taste good? Is it what you hoped for? Does it give the drinker the goopy-pooies? Did anyone pull a Lind Blair? Did anyone go blind from drinking less than 6 Liters? Hint: Yes, Yes, No, No, No.

Your method, and your choice of chemical are good. Relax. Have a Beer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have been doing a lot of research on Sanitizers and Disinfectants in the past few weeks, understandably. We got a few new chemical concentrates in, and I was also blowing the dust off some old stock.

I'd be interested in seeing what you learned, with citations.

 

[madscientist451]

For testing the desinfectants were transfered to tubes and each was innoculated with 50 microliters of corresponding culture. After 20 minutes all them were moved to agar growth-medium plates.

The method above has absolutely nothing in common with real world practices. A better experiment would be something like this:


A clean carboy or brew bucket was inoculated with (X) amount of (choice of yeast, bacteria) that would be similar to the amount found airborne in a typical home brewery. The carboy or bucket was then cleaned with hot water and PBW , following manufacturer's instructions and then Star-san was applied also following manufacturers instructions.

 

[grampamark]

It is firmly established that dihydrogen monoxide, in high concentrations, has extremely serious, sometimes fatal, effects on humans and other living things.

There’s science and then there’s illogically extreme anecdotes which may be absolutely true but, in the context of a discussion like this one, absolutely meaningless.

 

[jackyl]

Well. We have proof that StarSan will not kill a thread.

 

[BrewZer]

Well. We have proof that StarSan will not kill a thread.

...no matter how old it is.