Is Sparging Obsolete?

[bja]

Let me point out the obvious fact that when doing small batches (2.5 gallon), time does matter. I wonder how many folks do a batch a week?? At 4.5 hours a brew, that adds up to 234 hours a year just for brewing, not to mention racking, etc...

Here's another fact. I brew 10 gallons every other week. At 6 hours per brew I spend 156 hours per year for 260 gallon, compared to your 234 hours per year for 130 gallon. Meaningless? Probably, but you brought it up.

I don't really know what your point is with all of this, other than to rehash issues that have already been beaten to death. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

 

[mdbrewer1]

"First Brew was thanksgiving 2011, I'm at 99 batches and counting (as of 10/21/2014), and ran out of room in my signature to list them all."

Ouch!


I've obviously got some catching up to do..... at only 35 batches starting Feb 27 2014. I suspect I won't catch up until 2016. I won't even hit 50 this year. Saturday will be 36, and I'm making a shandy shooting for low attenuation to provide the sweetening for the fresh lemon I'll be putting in during "secondary". American Pilsner malt for a base.

Let me point out the obvious fact that when doing small batches (2.5 gallon), time does matter. I wonder how many folks do a batch a week?? At 4.5 hours a brew, that adds up to 234 hours a year just for brewing, not to mention racking, etc... For me small size means that I can cover more ground as far as experimenting with malts and hops. I'm NOT running a brewery making Bud Light.

There's an old saw about not being able to make an omelet without breaking eggs. I don't mind being shown the error of my ways and ideas.


H.W.

You can generate discussion by posting an interesting topic. There's no need to be controversial as it will almost certainly detract from a balanced, useful discussion. Although I guess your Click-Bait did the trick since I'm here.

You can make an omelet without standing up on your chair afterwards and yelling at everyone else that did it differently. People like that generally don't mind being shown the error of their ways, because they don't think they're wrong to begin with.

 

[brew_ny]

Let me point out the obvious fact that when doing small batches (2.5 gallon), time does matter. I wonder how many folks do a batch a week?? At 4.5 hours a brew, that adds up to 234 hours a year just for brewing,

H.W.

I brew two 11.5 gallon batches every other week with a six hour brew day start to finish

I brew on Tuesdays and Thursdays because I work from home those days

so for me it is like getting paid to brew, I do stuff around my place while mashing etc.

all the best

S_M

 

[doug293cz]

Doug:
Thanks for the link................. this exactly the sort of thing that is useful. I am at a loss as to where you came up with "I'm right, you're an idiot", or anything remotely approaching that in my original post. I will say, as I said before, the ability to use a finer crush makes a significant difference. Math or not, I've achieved efficiencies with BIAB that sometimes exceed 90% though usually are a bit under...... based on Brewer's Friend.
My procedure is to measure gravity at the end of boil with a known volume, then adjust the efficiency in Brewer's Friend until the gravity matches my result.
That does NOT negate the mathematical arguments presented in the article, but rather shows that there is more than one factor in play.

H.W.

Owly, I didn't quote your post, so why would you think the "I'm right, you're an idiot" was directed at you? It wasn't. It was a meta comment on what can happen in discussions started by a controversial assertion. I much prefer discussions based on supporting data or references, as opposed to those that devolve into ad hominem shouting matches. At least on the informational forums. Entertainment forums (eg "Drunken Ramblings ...") are a different matter.

90% mash efficiency with no sparge is a phenomenal achievement. Gives me more incentive to experiment with no sparge, now that I can.

Brew on

 

[Owly055]

Owly, I didn't quote your post, so why would you think the "I'm right, you're an idiot" was directed at you? It wasn't. It was a meta comment on what can happen in discussions started by a controversial assertion. I much prefer discussions based on supporting data or references, as opposed to those that devolve into ad hominem shouting matches. At least on the informational forums. Entertainment forums (eg "Drunken Ramblings ...") are a different matter.

90% mash efficiency with no sparge is a phenomenal achievement. Gives me more incentive to experiment with no sparge, now that I can.

Brew on

Doug:

I tossed out a question to start this thread.......... a controversial question without a doubt, and I thought expressed my thoughts and invited comment.

I don't hit 90% every brew by any means, but I to hit it sometimes. It's always 85 or better. Keep in mind that I'm working with a much finer crush than a lot of people. This leaves me with a bit more trub in the end, so "grain to glass" efficiency is NOT 90%. I still get the same number of bottles per brew, but I don't get that half glass left over when racking, which I end up drinking at the time. It's a bit less than that.

I enjoy seeing people experiment and come back with their results. RM-MN and I both are inclined to do extremely short mashes as well, and a few others are experimenting in that direction. I personally have no intention of doing 5,10, or 20 gallon brews for the foreseeable future, I like the flexibility of small batches. I get to play a lot, and currently have 5 different brews to choose from.

H.W.

 

[thekraken]

How much does a bag cost for biab? Looking at a few sites I googled (Like this one: http://www.brewinabag.com/) they seem to be charging $30-$35 for a bag. You gotta be able to find these cheaper right? It's just a mesh bag! Any way, IF that is what the bags cost, it's only $10 cheaper than the 15 gallon cooler mlt I just built for a buddy.

"There is no doubt that I could get more sugars out of the grain by sparging it..... we all could. Sparge with more water, and you have to boil longer. I wonder which is cheaper.... grain or propane? I pay $25 for a 50 pound bag of 2 row. It's a "no brainer" on my end."

I'm not sure I follow you there. (Declaimer: newby here) I run all my calculations ahead of time to make the sum of my runnings equal my boil volume (= batch size+boil off). Just boiling the standard 60 to 90 minutes or what ever the recipe calls for.

 

[RM-MN]

How much does a bag cost for biab? Looking at a few sites I googled (Like this one: http://www.brewinabag.com/) they seem to be charging $30-$35 for a bag. You gotta be able to find these cheaper right? It's just a mesh bag! Any way, IF that is what the bags cost, it's only $10 cheaper than the 15 gallon cooler mlt I just built for a buddy.

"There is no doubt that I could get more sugars out of the grain by sparging it..... we all could. Sparge with more water, and you have to boil longer. I wonder which is cheaper.... grain or propane? I pay $25 for a 50 pound bag of 2 row. It's a "no brainer" on my end."

I'm not sure I follow you there. (Declaimer: newby here) I run all my calculations ahead of time to make the sum of my runnings equal my boil volume (= batch size+boil off). Just boiling the standard 60 to 90 minutes or what ever the recipe calls for.

I've been using a 5 gallon paint strainer bag from Home Depot. It works well for me as it fits my 5 gallon pot if I want to make a 2 1/2 gallon batch or my 7 1/2 gallon turkey fryer if I want a 5 gallon batch. I got my 2 (because they come two in a package) for $3.76 plus tax. Some of the more expensive ones are custom made to fit a different size pot, some have a finer mesh. Mine work fine for me.

 

[TexasWine]

Pretty solid. What was your mash temp?

151F, on the nose. Mashed in my oven

 

[doug293cz]

How much does a bag cost for biab? Looking at a few sites I googled (Like this one: http://www.brewinabag.com/) they seem to be charging $30-$35 for a bag. You gotta be able to find these cheaper right? It's just a mesh bag! Any way, IF that is what the bags cost, it's only $10 cheaper than the 15 gallon cooler mlt I just built for a buddy.

Would you list the bill of materials with cost and source for us? I haven't seen any 15 gal coolers for $45, much less with plumbing. If you have a reliable source, I'm sure many people on this forum would be interested. If you're buying used, then yes, diligent scrounging is usually much cheaper than buying new. But, it's unfair to compare new, custom made/fit to used. You also don't have to buy a custom made bag. Many people use very inexpensive paint strainer bags from HD, Lowes, etc. But, I really like my bag from Wilser.

Brew on

 

[normonster]

Lol....you guys are out of hand. The best is having the ability to do both. I haven't biab'd yet but I'm glad I know I can and really the idea of not watching gravity at the end of sparge is starting to be more appealing every brew.

Brewing is a pain in the a$$.

 

[thekraken]

Would you list the bill of materials with cost and source for us? I haven't seen any 15 gal coolers for $45, much less with plumbing. If you have a reliable source, I'm sure many people on this forum would be interested. If you're buying used, then yes, diligent scrounging is usually much cheaper than buying new. But, it's unfair to compare new, custom made/fit to used. You also don't have to buy a custom made bag. Many people use very inexpensive paint strainer bags from HD, Lowes, etc. But, I really like my bag from Wilser.

Brew on

I made this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/60qt-ice-cube-mash-tun-build-cheap-simple-144475/

I spent $26.46 at Walmart for the cooler, $13.59 at home depot for a ball valve and hose barb, and $4.72 at Lowes for the cpvc manifold materials.

-- Edit --

I built one for my self and the one for a friend, I'm happy with it. But this thread does have me wanting to try biab, at least for small batches.

-- Edit Edit --
BTW: That cooler is listed cheaper on walmart's website than in stores by like $5. I had to ask the clerk to match their own online price when I was at the register.

 

[RM-MN]

Lol....you guys are out of hand. The best is having the ability to do both. I haven't biab'd yet but I'm glad I know I can and really the idea of not watching gravity at the end of sparge is starting to be more appealing every brew.

Brewing is a pain in the a$$.

Not at all, brewing is fun and you get to drink the product. Today I brewed a double chocolate stout, only 10 minutes to mash, overshot my predicted OG and had more wort than I expected too because I sparged a little too much. About 2 hours, give or take from equipment and grains on the table to wort in the fermenter for no chill and everything put away.

 

[normonster]

Not at all, brewing is fun and you get to drink the product. Today I brewed a double chocolate stout, only 10 minutes to mash, overshot my predicted OG and had more wort than I expected too because I sparged a little too much. About 2 hours, give or take from equipment and grains on the table to wort in the fermenter for no chill and everything put away.

Don't lie....it was a burden for you...I know.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I do BIAB and I think even if I had a real nice big 8 or 10 gallon kettle, I would still dunk and rinse method. Once I look at 15 minutes left on my mash, I already have another smaller kettle (that I realized really quickly would never ever ever work for 5 gallon batches, but works perfect for heating sparge water) filled with 2-2.5 gallons of sparge water heating.

Since I have to wait for the grain to drain anyway, throw some hot water on top and help wash it all out. I just make sure I set up my process and day that I'm doing multiple things concurrently, waiting for the sparge water to wash through and drain isn't that big of a deal because I'm cleaning other stuff or measuring hops or updating my notes.

If I ever updated my equipment to do 10 gallon batches for example, its not like my older equipment (6.5 gallon kettle and a 5 gallon kettle) will still be there and can be used. So I'll still dunk and rinse sparge my stuff if it means I'm controlling my volumes and efficiency the way I'm expecting them to turn out (since improving my sparging techniques my efficiencies and volumes are finally starting to hit what I'm expecting).

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I normally don't double post, but when I do it's because I thought of a good analogy.

The question shouldn't be "is it obsolete". I think people should ask "is it inefficient".

For me, no longer sparging would be an expensive choice as I would have to get a new kettle and I have no intentions of getting a new kettle for now, if I am gonna spend 200 or 300 dollars I am gonna spend it on other stuff like some bulk grains, more fermentation vessels, or parts for kegging. But do I need to spend that? No, my process works and I get my numbers.

Think of it this way. Let's say you have a 1992 Volvo, runs just fine, doesn't need maintenance that often, gets decent gas mileage. Would you replace this car just because it's obsolete compared to a more modern car that's 22 years newer? I wouldnt, spend 20,000 on a new car to replace something that works just fine? No thanks, obsolete wouldn't be the best word to use, if you consider it inefficient for your brewing and you spend the money to be able to full volume mash then you found that sparging was inefficient. For me the cost of switching to full volume would be an inefficient way for me to spend money when my process that includes sparging rarely takes me more than 4 hours without cleaning for a 5 gallon batch. If my brew day takes longer I am happy I get that much more quiet time, drink a scotch or a burboun and read my book while I wait for the boil or mash or draining the grain.

If it ain't broke, why fix it?

 

[doug293cz]

I made this:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/60qt-ice-cube-mash-tun-build-cheap-simple-144475/

I spent $26.46 at Walmart for the cooler, $13.59 at home depot for a ball valve and hose barb, and $4.72 at Lowes for the cpvc manifold materials.

-- Edit --

I built one for my self and the one for a friend, I'm happy with it. But this thread does have me wanting to try biab, at least for small batches.

-- Edit Edit --
BTW: That cooler is listed cheaper on walmart's website than in stores by like $5. I had to ask the clerk to match their own online price when I was at the register.

Thanks for responding. That's a good price for that cooler. Cheapest on Amazon (with shipping) was ~$62. I try to avoid Walmart. Looks like my bias can cost me some money.

From the pictures, it looks like the drain outlet is not all the way at the bottom of the cooler. Is that the case, or is it just an illusion? If the drain isn't at the bottom, what's the dead volume of the mash tun?

Brew on

 

[b-boy]

BIAB makes sense. I have no problem with it. if you want to do it, great. If it makes good beer for you, great.

I've thought about doing BIAB during the winter. It's tough to brew in my garage in February in 5F temperatures. I could probably do a BIAB for a small batch though. It would simplify the process and minimize the equipment I'd need.

What I hate are the BIAB mantras that go something like this:
"I do BIAB. I only have to mash for 32 seconds and I get 123% efficiency every time. I only spent $3.76 on my equipment. Everyone else is an idiot. You should ignore 1000 years of beer-making process because some guy broke his cooler and had to use a pillowcase to drain his wort. Did I mention that everyone else is an idiot?"

Reality - There are 20 ways to do everything. Everybody has their own best practice. If BIAB works for you, then do it. If you prefer batch sparging, then do it.

I mean we all know that the only people who don't now what the hell they're doing are the fly spargers - right?

 

[normonster]

Pillow case!!! Brilliant!

 

[giraffe]

Im confused about something though. When I mash, I target 5.2-5.5 ph depending on beer and sparge with 6.0. If you no sparge BIAB, wouldnt you have to have the ph of all 7 gallons of the water to 5.4 or whatever? If this is the case wont the ph of the beer be different to the fermenter, and in the final beer? What is the effect of this?

 

[rekoob]

This was a lot of time reading this thread I won't get back.

I really have nothing to add to the "topic". Do what you want. I would appreciate some actual research info if you try to pass the thread off as something you know about.

sparge, don't sparge... either way it makes beer, just a matter of how much extra stuff you want to add. right?

Okay, now back to the BIAB discussion at hand... oh, I forgot to add my hours/gallons info... maybe on another thread...

 

[thekraken]

Thanks for responding. That's a good price for that cooler. Cheapest on Amazon (with shipping) was ~$62. I try to avoid Walmart. Looks like my bias can cost me some money.

From the pictures, it looks like the drain outlet is not all the way at the bottom of the cooler. Is that the case, or is it just an illusion? If the drain isn't at the bottom, what's the dead volume of the mash tun?

Brew on

I'm worried we're veering off topic. It is above the bottom but the manifold siphons from the very bottom. Draining water alone leaves only about 0.5 to 2 cups behind, I haven't measured actual dead space on brew day.

 

[doug293cz]

I'm worried we're veering off topic. It is above the bottom but the manifold siphons from the very bottom. Draining water alone leaves only about 0.5 to 2 cups behind, I haven't measured actual dead space on brew day.

It's only marginally off topic. MLT dead space affects sparge efficiency (see my link earlier in this thread.) That's why it's best to minimize MLT dead space (reason I asked about yours), and also why it's best to squeeze the bag (if you're a squeezer) both before and after each sparge step.

Brew on

 

[jbaysurfer]

"First Brew was thanksgiving 2011, I'm at 99 batches and counting (as of 10/21/2014), and ran out of room in my signature to list them all."

Ouch!


I've obviously got some catching up to do..... at only 35 batches starting Feb 27 2014. I suspect I won't catch up until 2016. I won't even hit 50 this year. Saturday will be 36, and I'm making a shandy shooting for low attenuation to provide the sweetening for the fresh lemon I'll be putting in during "secondary". American Pilsner malt for a base.

It's not a contest. My signature line is for counting purposes only.

Brew day length, or preferred process is also not a contest.

 

[hunter_le five]

I don't know what all this sparge vs no-sparge / BIAB vs mash tun nonsense is about. Just do what I do and never separate the grain from the wort.

Beer, not unlike orange juice, is best served "extra pulpy".

 

[passedpawn]

I think BIAB is great, and no-sparge is great. It's all great. You're all superstars in my book!

Everyone's got their own situation, and requires a different setup. I brew big batches, sparges are necessary for sure.

Is sparging obsolete? Nope. But it is for the OP.

 

[helibrewer]

Nope.

 

[Calder]

No.

 

[orangemen5]

This was a lot of time reading this thread I won't get back. ...

+1
Couldn't even finish reading this thread.

 

[acidrain]

I actually thought this thread was going to be about full volume mash (according to the title), but after reading the body of the OP, I see it was clearly about starting a BIAB/traditional mash flame war.
Borderline trolling.

 

[kaconga]

I think what many people fail to realize is that mash ratios are just a tool. You can batch sparge or fly sparge or no sparge depending on what you want to do. It is like building a table. Some people will use nails, some screws, some will use cinder blocks. At the end of the day it will be a table regardless of the method you use. It is more about how you use the method you choose and not which method you choose.