Is my water good enough?

[joegibs]

Hey guys. I'm new here, and new to brewing as well. I've brewed 5 batches, with the 5th still sitting in secondary. All my kits have come from Midwest supplies. I've been having some issues with the taste of my finished product, and I don't know what could be causing it, but I suspect my water may be to blame. Everyone I talk to seems to have a different opinion, or says my tap water should be just fine. So, maybe someone here may have a helpful hint for me.

I'm from red wing minnesota, the town is surrounded by huge lime deposits, and as a result the city water is notoriously crap. I've been drinking it my whole life and don't mind it, so when everyone said if its good enough to drink its ok for beer. Well, I'm not so sure that applies to me. My last batch, a cream ale, along with the 3 prior to it just have this funky taste to it. I've had others taste it and they don't think its skunk or contaminated, just off for some reason.

Until recently I didn't really understand the importance of yeast, I was just using what came with the kit. I did use a liquid in my third batch, but I also used tap water. In my fourth batch I used spring water from Walmart, but again used the yeast that came with it- a dry yeast. My 5th batch I used spring water and a liquid yeast, so maybe it will come out better?

So I guess my biggest question is if the gallons of spring water is acceptable for brewing? I typically boil 2 gallons and refrigerate to use to fill to 5 gallons after the boil.

Is perhaps this odd taste I'm getting something inherent with partial mash kits using extract? The best I can describe it is kind of like I'm tasting the extract. My cousin described it as a plasticy taste.

Any suggestions would be welcome, I'm giddy as hell to brew a triple kit, sucker has to sit for 8 months so sooner the better. But I didn't want to cook it up without asking about the water first

 

[chickypad]

You really should get a water report if you want accurate advice on your water. That being said, plasticy sounds like possibly chlorine/chloramines, which campden tablets would take care of (one tablet treats 20 gal). Store bought spring water would be safer if you have concerns about your tap water. It's most important with partial mash and all grain, but you could still get off tastes brewing extract with really funky water.

While some kits don't come with the best quality yeast there are good dry yeasts out there (Danstar/Lallemand, Fermentis - which is Safale/Saflager), so don't necessarily dismiss all of them. Whichever you use, don't forget about temp control.

 

[BigFloyd]

So long as you're using a quality dry yeast, like Danstar or Fermentis, that's not an issue. In spite of what some folks may claim, there's nothing magical or superior about liquid yeast, just more varieties.

Since you still got the unpleasant taste using bottled spring water, that makes me suspect that your fermentation temps may be too high. Could you please give us some more information about that?

 

[joegibs]

I'm a single guy living in my house alone, so temps aren't kept to keep a female comfortable. In the summer time i keep my temp around 75-80, depending if I'm home or not. Winter time 62-70. In the summer I kept my fermenters in the basement, and it usually stayed around 70 down there. Winter I've kept them upstairs with a blanket.

The kits I've done so far were-
Irish red ale
Deep dark wheat
Jawbreaker wheat pale ale
Liberty cream ale
Hanks hefeweizen

Could the taste be coming from pulling from the fermenters too early? The first few I followed the directions that came with the kit, and they said 1 week primary and 1 week secondary. I've since started using the hydrometer readings. But the cream ale sat much longer and still has this odd taste

 

[BigFloyd]

What yeast are you using? What temp do you chill the wort to before pitching yeast?

Also, I'd suggest leaving the beer in the primary 17-21 days, skip the secondary. That may help some.

 

[joegibs]

I will admit I've tossed the yeast in at a little higher than recommended more than once, figured it wouldn't be a huge deal. Was usually because I ran out of ice for the ice bath and before I started refrigerating the add in water. Could using a plastic stir spoon be any issue?

Thanks for the help btw, may the beer gods bless you with awesome brew

 

[BigFloyd]

I will admit I've tossed the yeast in at a little higher than recommended more than once, figured it wouldn't be a huge deal. Was usually because I ran out of ice for the ice bath and before I started refrigerating the add in water. Could using a plastic stir spoon be any issue?

Thanks for the help btw, may the beer gods bless you with awesome brew

Pitch temp can be very important. Try getting the wort down to 60*F before pitching, then let it come up on its own to the initial ferment temp (63-64?). Hold it there 4-5 days then slowly step it up to 68*F or so. That will help.

I don't think the plastic spoon is an issue.

You're most welcome. May your next batch be a tasty one.

 

[joegibs]

That could explain everything. Does it kill the yeast off at a higher temp? If the yeast dies off, the fermentables (extract) isn't being converted and would explain why my finished product tastes like the malt extract instead of the delish home brews I've tasted from other people

 

[Seven]

Some suggestions:

Make sure you're pitching enough yeast. Depending on what you are brewing it may take more than one packet of yeast to do the job. If using liquid yeast, make yeast starters to get the yeast going and to build up the required number of yeast cells. Use a calculator like mrmalty.com or yeastcalc.com to help you determine the correct amount to pitch.

Control your fermentation temps. Many brewers build fermentation chambers to precisely control their fermentation temps. Pitch and ferment at the lower temperature range for the yeast you are using. You can get optimal temperature ranges from the yeast manufacturer's website. Let the temperature rise slowly as the fermentation starts to slow down - usually after the first 3 days or so.

If you're going to use tap water, get a water analysis from Ward Labs or other. I think it costs about $20 if I remember correctly. Be warned that not all bottled water is a sure bet either. Ask me how I know this...

Also check the brew science forum for information about water for brewing. There's a great sticky on the topic here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Don't give up... your brews will be delish in time with more practice!

 

[BigFloyd]

That could explain everything. Does it kill the yeast off at a higher temp? If the yeast dies off, the fermentables (extract) isn't being converted and would explain why my finished product tastes like the malt extract instead of the delish home brews I've tasted from other people

The temp has to be pretty darn high to actually kill off the yeast. Most likely, you're in the temp range where the yeast are stressed. That causes them to produced off-flavors of various types.

Brewing is a very temperature-dependent process, especially the yeast part. Yeast has a pretty narrow temp window in which it likes to do its thing. The precise range depends on the strain. Too cool, they go to sleep. Too warm, they sweat. Their sweat tastes bad.

Right now, stick with using dry yeast until you get the problem areas fixed.

I brew with filtered tap water to which I add 1/2 a Campden tablet at the beginning of the boil (or mash if AG) to get rid of the chloramine that our city adds.

 

[joegibs]

The kit and yeast. Kit is again from Midwest, and the yeast is the 1214 Belgian abbey. I shall find out next summer if it's any good. I've got more than enough ice for the ice bath and refrigerated water to get it down around 60*

 

[joegibs]

glad i found this thread while i'm tending to my boil. looks like i'll be saving the sugars for this weekend. i think i found my new favorite forum.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/when-add-belgian-candy-sugar-91417/index2.html

 

[BigFloyd]

You really ought to make a pretty big yeast starter for that Wyrast smack pack, especially since you're brewing a trippel. Otherwise, you're not going to pitch nearly enough yeast cells.

 

[unionrdr]

I use White House Artisian Springs water from the local source. Here's a page that describes what they do to their spring water; http://http://whitehousesprings.com/OurWater.php
I thought this might be a good example of what they do now with Obama's new regulations on spring water instituted last spring. My 10c a gallon water went up to 25c a gallon as a result.

 

[LovesIPA]

It sounds like you have more than one thing that is potentially making your beer taste not as good as it could.

- fermentation temperature control. You're not doing it. If you're fermenting in a 70 degree room, the actual temperature in the fermentor is a few degrees higher. You're probably fermenting at closer to 75 if the room is 70. The two most common ways to control fermentation temperature are swamp coolers and converted chest freezers. Do a search for both. Most people start out with the swamp cooler and pick up a chest freezer when they get tired of changing out frozen water bottles.

- Pitching the proper amount of yeast. One smack pack does not contain enough yeast to properly ferment 5 gallons of wort, regardless of what the package says. Dry yeast does contain enough cells, but it should be re-hydrated before pitching. Again, do a search on here. These are very common topics.

- water chemistry. It can be very daunting. It took me a while to figure out what I should be doing but it's really the right way to make good beer. There is a good example (Palmer?) that explains why water chemistry is important. Places like Pilsen, in the czech republic, are famous for their pale beers like Pilsner. But you can't brew a stout using Pilsen's water. It won't taste right at all. Places like Dublin, where the water is very different, make great stouts. But you can't brew a pilsner using Dublin's water. Again, it won't taste right.

The water must be tailored to the style. You can't brew a pale ale and a stout using the same water, regardless of where you live. Water chemistry is more important than people think.

I buy RO water from a Glacier vending machine, and add the proper amounts of salts to the mash and sparge water. If I'm brewing a porter, I create a very different water profile than an IPA. I use Bru'N Water to determine how much of what mineral to add.

 

[joegibs]

Alright, so since I boiled the kit last night and used only the one smack pack, should I order another? I'm assuming its possible to add more yeast still? Could you recommend a thread to educate myself about how much yeast I should be using? Work has had me running at 70 hour weeks, I probably should have waited on doing this kit until I had more time to ask my silly beginner questions.

Conveniently my parents bought a new house this week, there's a tall freezer that came with the house that they don't want. Will that work for temperature control?

 

[freisste]

Yeastcalc.com is good. I personally prefer it over mrmalty.com, but that is probably just personal preference. The freezer will work wonderfully IF AND ONLY IF you have some sort of overriding temperature controller. I think the stc-1000 (available on amazon) is a common choice. Basically, the thermostat in the freezer will keep your freezer too cold. You need something that will keep it in a higher temperature range.

 

[BigFloyd]

If you can get the yeast locally right away, an additional pack (or two) would help. If you have to wait for it to get shipped to you, just ride with what you've got. Seeing as how the OG of that kit is supposed to be 1.072-1.076, one Wyeast smack pack is not nearly enough cells. It may lag longer than normal and might fail to fully attenuate.

I look at and compare these two yeast calculators when doing a liquid yeast starter or using harvested slurry-

http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Unless and until you're ready and able to prepare yeast starters (or drop the coin to buy multiple vials/smackpacks), it's best to stick with dry yeast. One 11g packet rehydrated is enough cells for 5 gallons of wort up into the 1.060 range.

With that free freezer, you're all set to do temperature-controlled fermentation. All you have to do is put together a controller. If you can do basic household wiring (or know someone who can), check out these links and video-

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/stc-1000-setup-beginners-433985/#post5538096

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ebay-fish-tank-controller-build-using-wal-mart-parts-261506/


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ebay-aquarium-temp-controller-build-163849/

http://www.amazon.com/All-Purpose-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-Stc-1000/dp/B008KVCPH2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1382107733&sr=8-1&keywords=stc-1000



http://brewstands.com/fermentation-heater.html

It's a dual temperature controller. You wire it into a standard 2-plug outlet that you mount in some kind of project box (either homemade or bought at Radio Shack). One (cool) outlet is for the freezer/fridge. If your fermenter chamber is placed where it’s cold (like a garage in winter), you plug some kind of small heater into the warm outlet and then put that heater inside the freezer. Otherwise, just use the cold outlet.

Set the target temp (in Celsius) on the STC-1000. Set the tolerance (default is +/-0.5*C). When the temp (as read by the sensor) climbs 0.5*C above the target, it powers up the cool outlet and keeps it energized until the temp drops to the target and then turns it off. Likewise with the warm outlet if it gets 0.5*C too cool. You tape the sensor on the side of the fermenter and place some kind of insulation like bubble wrap over top of it so that it reads the bucket temp and not the air.

 

[joegibs]

I live an hour from Midwest supplies, I can haul ass up there first thing tomorrow morning. Is that too late?

 

[joegibs]

Orrrrrr, I could sacrifice my extended lunch break to make the run today, if tomorrow is too late.

 

[unionrdr]

The sooner the better I think to get the right amount of yeast working while it's still workin on initial fermentation.

 

[joegibs]

Should I do a starter or should I just smack it, wait the 3 hours and dump it in?

 

[DocScott]

Should I do a starter or should I just smack it, wait the 3 hours and dump it in?

Smack and add immediately. The waiting is to "ensure viability". At this point, that doesn't matter, you just need increased cell count

 

[joegibs]

I suppose I should also mention the pack didn't really swell up much in the 3 hours, soooo... Should I be getting two packs? Works dragging me down, I'm not going to have time to make the run today, will have to be in the morning

 

[joegibs]

To possibly save myself an unnecessary trip, would using a pack of American ii that I have in my fridge be ok? Different yeast different flavor, but at this point I'd like to save the kit from going to waste

 

[jonmohno]

American II is slightly fruitier and attenuates a little less than the chico strain.I think its the same as white labs calivV yeast which I like a lot, it finishes a bit sweeter/maltier less dry depending on what your brewing and how your brewing of course and fermentation temps.

Sounds like at least your interested in improving your beers. And you will. It just can take a lot of batches and research sometimes and is sometimes right under your nose. Or it might not take that long. There are certain rules people end up learning with brewing/technique though. I still cant find water I like except ro water but I find it tricky to add the right amount of salts to it for a mash to get the end result I would like. So I end up splitting Srping water with RO. I learned that from Yooper and it works well for me, I just have to adjust the mash ph accodingly with a bit of salts to get my range of ph I want for the mash. Pitching plentyful yeast is another thing learned as well as good aeration moreso for liquid yeasts. How your yeast starts out(and while fermenting) is pretty critical in the end product and so are temps they are very important also. That said, good fresh ingredients,good water,good viable yeast(starters are great),good sanitation,good seal on the fermenter...there are many other variables so good attention to detail and learning and you can keep making better and better beer.