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Is it too early to start talking about 11-11-11?

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jmo88

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I have to agree with this. A big old ale sounds great. I've never had a beer with brett, so i might have to hunt one down to try first, but it certainly sounds like it would be amazing.
The brett is the main reason I am not too concerned about the grain bill. When a very clean ale yeast is used, the individual malts are more noticeable than in brett beers, at least to my tastes. I am not saying necessarily that brett dominates the beer, but it seems to blur the differences in the malts. As for hunting down an example to try, you'll mainly be looking for Belgians, as commercial old ale examples I know of do not have brett. Try Boulevard's brett saison, Ommegangs's Bier de Mars, or Oval. Since these are all Belgians, you have to imagine the brett influence in an old ale, I guess.

Anyone know how much the caramelization will darken the beer? Using 4% brown, 4% amber, 3% treacle only gets it to 13 SRM without accounting for the caramelization.
 

marc06

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I hate to be a debby downer, but I am kind of disappointed about a Brett beer for the 11-11-11. As a perpetually poor grad student, I was going to take the plunge after 3 years of being on the forum and become a supporter, so I may partake in the anniversary festivities. However, I feel that a Brett beer, while ever so tantilizing to some, does not appeal to the masses. I would like to voice my opinion against a Brett beer. Alas, I also understand that it has to eventually be done, but at the expense of excluding a large group of people.

Just my thought
 

mullenite

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I hate to be a debby downer, but I am kind of disappointed about a Brett beer for the 11-11-11. As a perpetually poor grad student, I was going to take the plunge after 3 years of being on the forum and become a supporter, so I may partake in the anniversary festivities. However, I feel that a Brett beer, while ever so tantilizing to some, does not appeal to the masses. I would like to voice my opinion against a Brett beer. Alas, I also understand that it has to eventually be done, but at the expense of excluding a large group of people.

Just my thought
So brew the Old Ale without Brett. I don't like Brett and that is what I would be doing.
 

GuldTuborg

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So brew the Old Ale without Brett. I don't like Brett and that is what I would be doing.
I think this is the way to go. The brett is not necessary. It should be emphasized, too, that the brett character will be fairly modest in a beer like this. Think Orval, perhaps, where it's noticeable, but not dominant by any stretch of the imagination. My guess is 9097 uses a Brett C, which should really not lend a strong flavor. Using a good English yeast ought to yield excellent results as well. In fact, choosing the alternate 1469 seasonal strain would not at all be a bad choice.

My best guess as good alternate strains would be 1469, 1098, 1275, 1318, and 1728. Anyone else care to weigh in here? My apologies to White Labs users, as I have never used their products and don't know the catalog well.
 

KingBrianI

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So based upon what we've been discussing, here's a very rough outline for a 5 gallon batch.

12-13lbs Maris Otter
.5-1lb+ Amber malt
.5-1lb+ Brown Malt
1lb Molasses/Treacle
(maybe a small chocolate malt addition of 4-8oz)

50-60 IBU of British bittering hops (Phoenix, Target, Bullion???)

Mash at 154 or so?

Take first 1 gallon of runoff and boil down to 1-2 pints, add to boil
Boil 2hrs, maybe longer?

Use 9097 seasonal strain as preferred yeast
French(?) oak, maybe 1oz, in secondary (how long?)

Does this look like a tenable outline? Any major problems? There are details to tweak, clearly, but this seems to be coming together well, and I sure would be happy with something like this.
That is almost exactly what I was thinking of. I like 60 IBU. This is a beer meant for aging and I find that having a heavy hand pays off in the long run when the beer starts losing some bitterness. I was planning on boiling down more than 1 gallon of runnings but could be persuaded otherwise. It will lend a lot of color to the beer.

I have mixed emotions about the amount of amber and brown malts. I was originally thinking 0.5 lbs each since I think that would taste really good in a fresh beer. But since this will be aged, going heavier with them might be the better choice since the flavors will have time to mellow and meld during aging. Something closer to 1 lb each or maybe 1 lb amber and 0.5 lbs brown would be the way to go.

As for oak, I like the idea of french medium or medium+ toast. And this is again something I've been tossing around in my head. My current feeling is that I'd like a strong oak flavor and might do something along the lines of adding 0.5 oz of cubes for the entire duration of secondary. Maybe 0.25 oz so it doesn't get too strong over that time. But I definitely want it to be noticable. Something that tastes like it's been barrel aged.

And for the people scared of the brett, that's the great thing about old ales. You can skip the brett and still have a fantastic and to style old ale.

I'm glad this seems to be coming together. 11/11/11 is really not much more than a year away.
 

GuldTuborg

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I'm glad this seems to be coming together. 11/11/11 is really not much more than a year away.
Given that this is an old ale, we'll want time for it to age and be ready by 111111 as well. This is the right time to be discussing it, no?

I'm on the fence about the brown and amber malt content as well. I don't want to skimp on the flavor and color, as it will age and soften over time (already mentioned). Since that's the case, I'd prefer to err on the side of too much rather than too little, but some of this hinges on what, exactly, the effect of boiling down some of this wort will be. What kind of color and flavor contributions will it add, and will it be sufficient to make for a dark, full flavored ale once aged? I simply don't know, as I'm very inexperienced with the technique.

How much would you advice to set aside for really boiling down? How far should it go? Should we consider a slightly larger grainbill and large amount of sparge water to make up the difference, and give a good amount of "regular" wort to boil alongside?
 

KingBrianI

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Boiling the wort down creates a really intense, complex caramel flavor. It can even have butterscotchy hints and I remember Jamil stating that it can be mistaken for small amounts of diacetyl. It's a rounder, richer caramel character than a crystal malt would create. I'd go with 2 gallons of first runnings and boil them down until they became a thick dark syrup. Then I'd add a little of the rest of the wort to the container with the boiled down runnings to dissolve them and pour that into the kettle.
 

GuldTuborg

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There's a brewpub near me that's rather famous for its strong scotch ale (amongst a few other beers, but this one is really their greatest achievement, and Michael Jackson mentioned how good it is in one of his books). It really is fantastic. Apparently, the way they get this kind of caramelization is to heat up the boiling kettle to full temperature, and then pour in the mash wort. High level, instant caramelization. Somehow, they haven't cracked or otherwise destroyed the kettle yet, in some 15 years of doing this. I don't know that I'm ready to recommend this technique to anyone else, but it may be an option for the gambling type, if you don't want to bother with two boils going at the same time.
 
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camiller

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I hate to be a debby downer, but I am kind of disappointed about a Brett beer for the 11-11-11. As a perpetually poor grad student, I was going to take the plunge after 3 years of being on the forum and become a supporter, so I may partake in the anniversary festivities. However, I feel that a Brett beer, while ever so tantilizing to some, does not appeal to the masses. I would like to voice my opinion against a Brett beer. Alas, I also understand that it has to eventually be done, but at the expense of excluding a large group of people.

Just my thought
So brew the Old Ale without Brett. I don't like Brett and that is what I would be doing.
Yeah, like mullenite said, the Brett would be optional. Personally I'll probably do a ten gallon batch and do half with the Brett blend and half with an alternative.
 

KingBrianI

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What are opinions on the strength of this beer? Do we want to make the best-tasting beer or do we want to go epic and do something like a 1.111 OG to commemorate the occasion?
 

BioBeing

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I made an old ale last year with the 9097. I'd be up to try again.

Mine did finish too low (1.083 --> 1.007!), as the brett just kept working in secondary. It lost a lot of mouthfeel, and is missing some of the malt complexity I think because of this. I mashed low though, as I hadn't used brett before, and I didn't do any kettle caramalization. For those of you who haven't used brett - don't be too scared by it. It does add a certain distinct flavour, but I find it isn't overpowering in any way.

I haven't actually tasted it for a few months though... and its over a year old now. Need to chill a couple down I think!
 

jmo88

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Epic 1.111 doesn't sound good to me. I think if we keep it about 9%, we will end up with a better beer. Will mashing high, say 156F, and doing the caramelization help in over attenuation? I'm thinking the brett will chomp through it anyway. I guess it won't hurt to try.
 

GuldTuborg

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I'd prefer something in the 8-10% range. OG 1.111 with a high attenuating strain like this would just be silly/hot with alcohol. OG 1085-1090 would be best, IMO.
 

jmo88

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I put the recipe in Beer Alchemy today. If we do a kettle caramelization, it makes the SRM hard to estimate and if we do the extended aging with brett, it makes the FG hard to estimate. I estimated the upper 70's AA% if a single infusion mash of 158F is used. I also think the color will be darker from the caramelization, so I erred on the low end with the grain bill so that it would get to about 18-20SRM. Maybe some black patent should be included? What do you think? The recipe doesn't take into account the longer boil or caramelization.

Recipe: 11-11-11 Old Ale
Style: 19A-Strong Ale-Old Ale

Recipe Overview

Wort Volume Before Boil: 7.00 US gals
Wort Volume After Boil: 6.00 US gals
Volume Transferred: 5.80 US gals
Water Added: 0.00 US gals
Volume At Pitching: 5.80 US gals
Final Batch Volume: 5.00 US gals
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.065 SG
Expected OG: 1.078 SG
Expected FG: 1.016 SG
Expected ABV: 8.4 %
Expected ABW: 6.5 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 57.0
Expected Color: 13.6 SRM
Apparent Attenuation: 78.7 %
Mash Efficiency: 77.0 %
Boil Duration: 90.0 mins
Fermentation Temperature: 68 degF

Fermentables
UK Pale Ale Malt 14lb 8oz (87.9 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Amber Malt 12.00 oz (4.5 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Brown Malt 12.00 oz (4.5 %) In Mash/Steeped
Sugar - Treacle 8.00 oz (3.0 %) Start Of Boil

Hops
UK Target (10.5 % alpha) 2.00 oz Loose Pellet Hops used 60 Min From End


Yeast: Wyeast 9097-PC Old Ale Blend

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Full Mash
Schedule Name:Single infusion 158
Step: Rest at 158 degF for 60 mins
 

conpewter

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That recipe looks pretty good to me. I'll probably go with more water though as I'll lose more during the carmelization than I would if I was just doing a normal 60 or 90 minute boil
 

jmo88

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That recipe looks pretty good to me. I'll probably go with more water though as I'll lose more during the carmelization than I would if I was just doing a normal 60 or 90 minute boil
Fist Runnings Boil: 2 US gals (reduced to 1-2 quarts of syrup)
Wort Volume Before Boil: 7.00 US gals (containing the reduced syrup)

If we add this to the above recipe, it makes it more clear. This makes for 9 gals of runnings.

What do you think of the color? Those of you with more experience in caramelization, how much darker do you think this will get?
 

KingBrianI

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Fist Runnings Boil: 2 US gals (reduced to 1-2 quarts of syrup)
Wort Volume Before Boil: 7.00 US gals (containing the reduced syrup)

If we add this to the above recipe, it makes it more clear. This makes for 9 gals of runnings.

What do you think of the color? Those of you with more experience in caramelization, how much darker do you think this will get?
It's hard to say what the color contribution would be. It probably depends a lot on how much time the syrup spends on the heat reducing. It would probably be safe to assume a 2 SRM bump in color for a quick boil down that doesn't get too syrupy and maybe a 5 SRM bump for a slow boil down that is allowed to go really thick and dark. I don't think there will be any problem with this recipe not looking dark enough.
 

KingBrianI

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Recipe: 11-11-11 Old Ale
Style: 19A-Strong Ale-Old Ale

Recipe Overview

Wort Volume Before Boil: 7.00 US gals
Wort Volume After Boil: 6.00 US gals
Volume Transferred: 5.80 US gals
Water Added: 0.00 US gals
Volume At Pitching: 5.80 US gals
Final Batch Volume: 5.00 US gals
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.065 SG
Expected OG: 1.078 SG
Expected FG: 1.016 SG
Expected ABV: 8.4 %
Expected ABW: 6.5 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 57.0
Expected Color: 13.6 SRM
Apparent Attenuation: 78.7 %
Mash Efficiency: 77.0 %
Boil Duration: 90.0 mins
Fermentation Temperature: 68 degF

Fermentables
UK Pale Ale Malt 14lb 8oz (87.9 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Amber Malt 12.00 oz (4.5 %) In Mash/Steeped
UK Brown Malt 12.00 oz (4.5 %) In Mash/Steeped
Sugar - Treacle 8.00 oz (3.0 %) Start Of Boil

Hops
UK Target (10.5 % alpha) 2.00 oz Loose Pellet Hops used 60 Min From End


Yeast: Wyeast 9097-PC Old Ale Blend

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Full Mash
Schedule Name:Single infusion 158
Step: Rest at 158 degF for 60 mins

I'm ready to go ahead and call this official if there are no objections! It should make an awesome recipe, but probably the most exciting aspect to this beer is that it has a ton of potential for personalization. That will make the tasting after the swap very interesting. Differences in the kettle caramelization, yeast (brett/no brett), oaking, aging, etc. will really make every recipe unique.
 

jmo88

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Objectors have had a lot of time to voice a different opinion. Let's go for it. As for a name, what do you think of Gun Stock Ale? It's taken from KingBrian's original description of a "well-used walnut gun stock" plus it's a play on words since stock ales were aged old ales.
 
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camiller

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Objectors have had a lot of time to voice a different opinion. Let's go for it. As for a name, what do you think of Gun Stock Ale? It's taken from KingBrian's original description of a "well-used walnut gun stock" plus it's a play on words since stock ales were aged old ales.
Sounds good to me! Although depending on the degree of personalization people do they may want to give it a name that describes the character of their take on the beer.
 

jmo88

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Sounds good to me! Although depending on the degree of personalization people do they may want to give it a name that describes the character of their take on the beer.
That's true, I just remember all the other collaborative recipes having titles, like Devil May Cry.
 
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camiller

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That's true, I just remember all the other collaborative recipes having titles, like Devil May Cry.
In hindsight I guess you are right. Gun Stock Ale it is. Think I might do a 9 gallon batch split three ways. Use the Wyeast Old Ale blend in all three then one with oak and one with some other bugs.
 

KingBrianI

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I am in on this brew...
Will use the Wyeast Old Ale blend... 3gals with oak and 3gals without.

Had this is past weekend in Denver - http://www.rogue.com/beers/21-ale.php
uses the Old Ale yeast blend... excellent
In hindsight I guess you are right. Gun Stock Ale it is. Think I might do a 9 gallon batch split three ways. Use the Wyeast Old Ale blend in all three then one with oak and one with some other bugs.
What are you guys thinking about doing with the oak? Since I think this beer could really benefit from a somewhat strong oaking I'm considering putting it on 0.5 oz of med or med+ french oak cubes for the entire secondary (8 months or so). I'm trying to get an idea of what other people plan though.

Mmmm. The oak, the malt, the aged flavors (leather, sherry, tobacco), the brett.... I've got a feeling this beer will be awesome.:D
 

jmo88

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What are you guys thinking about doing with the oak? Since I think this beer could really benefit from a somewhat strong oaking I'm considering putting it on 0.5 oz of med or med+ french oak cubes for the entire secondary (8 months or so). I'm trying to get an idea of what other people plan though.

Mmmm. The oak, the malt, the aged flavors (leather, sherry, tobacco), the brett.... I've got a feeling this beer will be awesome.:D
I have little experience with oaking, but it's my understanding that if you want bigger oak flavor, leaving cubes in for several months is not as strong as adding them a few weeks before packaging. Does this sound right? Since I would be after a less pronounced oak, I think leaving them in for a longer period is more in line with my tastes.
 

Beernip

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What are you guys thinking about doing with the oak? Since I think this beer could really benefit from a somewhat strong oaking I'm considering putting it on 0.5 oz of med or med+ french oak cubes for the entire secondary (8 months or so). I'm trying to get an idea of what other people plan though.

Mmmm. The oak, the malt, the aged flavors (leather, sherry, tobacco), the brett.... I've got a feeling this beer will be awesome.:D
I have an oaked old ale that I have on tap right now. I used 2 oz of medium french oak cubes in 8 gallon batch for 3 months and I feel like it was too much. I think that .5 oz in 5 gallons would be about right.

I do love an old ale and may have to give this a try. :mug: Going to have to research this yeast blend. An english yeast blend with Brett. Mmmmm, sounds like a winner.
 

jmo88

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After a lot of research on oaking techniques today, I think I'm going to add a little less than an ounce of American medium + at pitching and and ounce right after fermentation for two weeks. After that I'll transfer it to a secondary. I'd like to have the oak out and the flavor to meld for several months before bottling so it is great when it is carbed. I'm shooting for more of an aftertaste and mouthfeel than a big oak/vanilla thing.

I can post a recipe for this in the recipe forum. Of course there will be many variables from brewer to brewer but it will give everyone parameters.

Anyone know the dates the yeast is available?
 

Scut_Monkey

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Anyone know the dates the yeast is available?
Yeah would need this info. Sounds like a good recipe. I havcec never used oak or anything bugs in the past so this should be a good way to break that. Thanks for the good recipe.
 
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camiller

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Yeah would need this info. Sounds like a good recipe. I havcec never used oak or anything bugs in the past so this should be a good way to break that. Thanks for the good recipe.
I believe the yeast is slated to be one of the fourth quarter "PC" strains so should be available around October or so.
 

barrog

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How important is the Treacle? I can get it on Amazon but would like to know of any subs, thanks
 
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