Is it better to age before or after stabilizing?

[NeverDie]

My hunch is that it's better to age before stabilizing, so that the yeast can do their thing of "cleaning up" the mead unimpeded.

 

[RPh_Guy]

After stabilizing. Stabilizing prevents unwanted microbial activity and oxidation during aging.
There's also theoretical risk of off-flavors if left on the lees for too long.
I've tried it both ways.

If you have off-flavors at the end of fermentation, that's another story. Yeast can remove diacetyl (buttery) and acetaldehyde (green apple), but it doesn't take long, a few days at the most.

 

[Redeemer]

After stabilizing. Stabilizing prevents unwanted microbial activity and oxidation during aging.
There's also theoretical risk of off-flavors if left on the lees for too long.
I've tried it both ways.

If you have off-flavors at the end of fermentation, that's another story. Yeast can remove diacetyl (buttery) and acetaldehyde (green apple), but it doesn't take long, a few days at the most.

A few days when? After fermenting stops? The reason I ask is because most of my current ferments are finishing in 7 to 10 days, but I've been reading recommendations to keep in the primary for 1 month or so. Are you implying I can rack my BOMM style projects off the Lee's at 15 days without losing any "cleanup" benefits?

 

[RPh_Guy]

A healthy fermentation doesn't produce any off-flavors to be "cleaned up".

If it's clear and it tastes good a few days after finishing, go ahead and rack/stabilize.
If it doesn't taste good when it's done fermenting, that means something went wrong (probably with fermentation; mead is rather unforgiving). Try to figure out what it was and correct it in the next batch.

Also, leaving it in primary doesn't hurt, as long as you haven't introduced oxygen. The exception is if the yeast produced hydrogen sulfide during fermenting, then you should get it off the lees quickly.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[NeverDie]

After stabilizing. Stabilizing prevents unwanted microbial activity and oxidation during aging.
There's also theoretical risk of off-flavors if left on the lees for too long.
I've tried it both ways.

If you have off-flavors at the end of fermentation, that's another story. Yeast can remove diacetyl (buttery) and acetaldehyde (green apple), but it doesn't take long, a few days at the most.

OK, so stabilize first and then age.

Time for my noob question then: exactly what is doing the aging during the aging process if the yeast are largely incapacitated? Is it simply very slow to happen chemical reactions, or is it the yeast that have somehow managed to survive the stabilizing process that go on to "age" the mead?

 

[NeverDie]

A few days when? After fermenting stops? The reason I ask is because most of my current ferments are finishing in 7 to 10 days, but I've been reading recommendations to keep in the primary for 1 month or so. Are you implying I can rack my BOMM style projects off the Lee's at 15 days without losing any "cleanup" benefits?

How many days after pitching does your mead go clear? I suspect the one month figure you're referring to is about that length of time, give or take.

 

[RPh_Guy]

exactly what is doing the aging during the aging process

From my limited understanding, both spontaneous reactions, particularly oxidation, and also yeast activity change the flavor compounds over time.

Oxygen seeps in through the packaging, causing low amounts of oxidation over time.

Neither sorbate nor sulfite actually kill the yeast, so unless you sterile filter or pasteurize, the yeast (and bacteria) will still be present.
FYI: Different yeast strains have different effects during aging.

 

[Redeemer]

How many days after pitching does your mead go clear? I suspect the one month figure you're referring to is about that length of time, give or take.

Honestly it depends on the ambient temps. This time of year I would say 7 to 20 days depending on what else I have put in besides honey water and yeast. During the cooler months, significantly less.

Interestingly enough I have a sour cherry cider that finished up about a week ago with abaye yeast. It had dropped mostly clear in about 2 weeks. I racked it and topped off with sweet cider (which was loaded with sediment and clouded it up, but that all dropped over night) to keep the O2 to a minimum and was going to let it sit in secondary for a month or two but 2 days later it woke up and started eating the sugar in the new juice. Figuring I was at the upper limit of alcohol tolerance for the yeast I decided to bottle right away because I wanted it carbonated. This was last Saturday. The cider flavor was good but the tart cherry imparted a bit of a cough medicine flavor that worried me, but I had no choice but to continue. It is now Tuesday, I just returned from the airport and decided to give one a try. Room temp, gave me a bit of a geyser but the flavor is exquisite. Nothing like it was 2 days ago. That's the good news. The bad news is I better chill this stuff in a hurry because I suspect room temp aging is gonna make me sad with bottle bombs.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Apple juice lowered the alcohol level and added nutrients.

 

[NeverDie]

Honestly it depends on the ambient temps. This time of year I would say 7 to 20 days depending on what else I have put in besides honey water and yeast. During the cooler months, significantly less.

Interestingly enough I have a sour cherry cider that finished up about a week ago with abaye yeast. It had dropped mostly clear in about 2 weeks. I racked it and topped off with sweet cider (which was loaded with sediment and clouded it up, but that all dropped over night) to keep the O2 to a minimum and was going to let it sit in secondary for a month or two but 2 days later it woke up and started eating the sugar in the new juice. Figuring I was at the upper limit of alcohol tolerance for the yeast I decided to bottle right away because I wanted it carbonated. This was last Saturday. The cider flavor was good but the tart cherry imparted a bit of a cough medicine flavor that worried me, but I had no choice but to continue. It is now Tuesday, I just returned from the airport and decided to give one a try. Room temp, gave me a bit of a geyser but the flavor is exquisite. Nothing like it was 2 days ago. That's the good news. The bad news is I better chill this stuff in a hurry because I suspect room temp aging is gonna make me sad with bottle bombs.

Well, your examples aren't meads. That muddies the water with extraneous data.

 

[Redeemer]

Well, your examples aren't meads. That muddies the water with extraneous data.

Good point. Muddying the waters was the opposite of my intention.

Getting back on track, I'm reading that oxidation is less of a problem for mead than other wines. If this is true, would it be reasonable to assume that oxidation has less of an impact on the aging process for mead? And if that is a correct assumption, does this lend to mead inherently needing more time to properly age, or would it mean the yeast is the dominant force in the aging process?

 

[Maylar]

OK, so stabilize first and then age.

At least add sulfite for an antioxidant before aging. I usually don't add sorbate until bottling time, and then only if back sweetening.

Time for my noob question then: exactly what is doing the aging during the aging process if the yeast are largely incapacitated? Is it simply very slow to happen chemical reactions, or is it the yeast that have somehow managed to survive the stabilizing process that go on to "age" the mead?

There are different levels of aging, some that involve the yeast and some that don't. I've never really looked into it but I do know that some people age on the "fine" lees, after secondary. A few cider guys say that leaving cider on the gross lees of D47 adds "complexity".

Then there's other stuff that has nothing to do with yeast. Why do the flavors in a JAOM meld and come together with time? Why do ciders get more appley with time? Why do fusels diminish with time, even in a closed bottle? I have no idea.

With wine, they say acids and tannins change with age. One could spend a lifetime studying this stuff (and I'm sure some have).
https://www.tyrrells.com.au/educati...h-scott-richardson-retail-events-coordinator/

 

[NeverDie]

It seems like stabilizing may (?) also help with clarifying the must. I had a couple of test batches that I cold crashed, with little to no visible improvement--still very cloudy. But after adding the stabilizing agents and continuing the cold crash, a lot settled to the bottom and they cleared up quite a bit overnight.

Is it better to cold crash first, as I did, or is it better to add the stabilizing agents and then cold crash? Or, does it make no difference? My theory was that the cold crash would weaken anything alive in the must, and the stabilizing agents would then be more effective if applied after the cold crash had been going for, say, 24 hours or longer.

 

[loveofrose]

It is better to cold crash first, rack the clear portion and stabilize. It is the free sulfite that provides protection. Sulfite that has bound to objects (yeast, fruit bits, etc) provides no protection and reduces free sulfite. If too much free sulfite becomes bound, then you are no longer stabilized at all.

In your case, much free sulfite became bound thus neutralizing charges and caused clearing. Bentonite and other clearing agents operate the same way, but better. This is also indicative that you may not be as stabilized as you hoped.

It is important to mention that both pH and bindable particulates determines how much is necessary to fully stabilize the mead. This is why you hear about failed stabilization. Not enough sulfite was added to overcome binding and pH. Read here for more accurate details of the proper way to dose it: https://morewinemaking.com/products/sorbistat-potassium-sorbate.html and https://morewinemaking.com/articles/SO2_management

Should you stabilize? That depends on you. Stabilizing does maintain the fresh flavors and provides insurance from oxidation; however, the meads don’t age the same way. They both age, just differently. Stabilized mead has less oxidation and gets smoother. Non-stabilized mead enjoys some micro oxidation and ages more like traditional red wine. Which is better depends on the mead!

 

[NeverDie]

It is better to cold crash first, rack the clear portion and stabilize. It is the free sulfite that provides protection. Sulfite that has bound to objects (yeast, fruit bits, etc) provides no protection and reduces free sulfite. If too much free sulfite becomes bound, then you are no longer stabilized at all.

In your case, much free sulfite became bound thus neutralizing charges and caused clearing. Bentonite and other clearing agents operate the same way, but better. This is also indicative that you may not be as stabilized as you hoped.

It is important to mention that both pH and bindable particulates determines how much is necessary to fully stabilize the mead. This is why you hear about failed stabilization. Not enough sulfite was added to overcome binding and pH. Read here for more accurate details of the proper way to dose it: https://morewinemaking.com/products/sorbistat-potassium-sorbate.html and https://morewinemaking.com/articles/SO2_management

Should you stabilize? That depends on you. Stabilizing does maintain the fresh flavors and provides insurance from oxidation; however, the meads don’t age the same way. They both age, just differently. Stabilized mead has less oxidation and gets smoother. Non-stabilized mead enjoys some micro oxidation and ages more like traditional red wine. Which is better depends on the mead!

Aha! Makes sense. So, I assume therefore that adding bentonite after stabilization will likely wipe out even more of the sulfite? i.e. it is better to follow these steps:
1. cold crash
2. rack off the clearer portion
3. apply bentonite and wait for it to settle
4. rack off the clear portion.
5. only then, stabilize!

 

[loveofrose]

Most modern mead makers add bentonite upfront so that the fermentation encourages the bentonite to contact as much surface as possible. It also prevents the “clay” flavor that can occur in secondary additions.

 

[Redeemer]

Would the addition of diatomaceous earth take the place of or be an adjunct to the bentonite? Any difference in how the final product will age?

 

[NeverDie]

It is better to cold crash first, rack the clear portion and stabilize. It is the free sulfite that provides protection. Sulfite that has bound to objects (yeast, fruit bits, etc) provides no protection and reduces free sulfite. If too much free sulfite becomes bound, then you are no longer stabilized at all.

In your case, much free sulfite became bound thus neutralizing charges and caused clearing. Bentonite and other clearing agents operate the same way, but better. This is also indicative that you may not be as stabilized as you hoped.

It is important to mention that both pH and bindable particulates determines how much is necessary to fully stabilize the mead. This is why you hear about failed stabilization. Not enough sulfite was added to overcome binding and pH. Read here for more accurate details of the proper way to dose it: https://morewinemaking.com/products/sorbistat-potassium-sorbate.html and https://morewinemaking.com/articles/SO2_management

Should you stabilize? That depends on you. Stabilizing does maintain the fresh flavors and provides insurance from oxidation; however, the meads don’t age the same way. They both age, just differently. Stabilized mead has less oxidation and gets smoother. Non-stabilized mead enjoys some micro oxidation and ages more like traditional red wine. Which is better depends on the mead!

The second link on SO2 management refered to a chart that, unfortunately, wasn't in the article. However, for the convenience of anyone reading this, I think I found a very similar chart to reference:

 

[NeverDie]

It is better to cold crash first, rack the clear portion and stabilize. It is the free sulfite that provides protection. Sulfite that has bound to objects (yeast, fruit bits, etc) provides no protection and reduces free sulfite. If too much free sulfite becomes bound, then you are no longer stabilized at all.

In your case, much free sulfite became bound thus neutralizing charges and caused clearing. Bentonite and other clearing agents operate the same way, but better. This is also indicative that you may not be as stabilized as you hoped.

It is important to mention that both pH and bindable particulates determines how much is necessary to fully stabilize the mead. This is why you hear about failed stabilization. Not enough sulfite was added to overcome binding and pH. Read here for more accurate details of the proper way to dose it: https://morewinemaking.com/products/sorbistat-potassium-sorbate.html and https://morewinemaking.com/articles/SO2_management

Should you stabilize? That depends on you. Stabilizing does maintain the fresh flavors and provides insurance from oxidation; however, the meads don’t age the same way. They both age, just differently. Stabilized mead has less oxidation and gets smoother. Non-stabilized mead enjoys some micro oxidation and ages more like traditional red wine. Which is better depends on the mead!

Which one of the three sulfite test kits did you buy?

 

[NeverDie]

I just don't see myself running a test that involved very often. I guess that means I would need the fully automated test kit.....

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's why I prefer not to bulk age after any kind of oxygen exposure. I don't want to monitor SO2 levels.

 

[loveofrose]

Which one of the three sulfite test kits did you buy?

I just put my own together like the video above.

 

[Maylar]

I just don't see myself running a test that involved very often. I guess that means I would need the fully automated test kit.....

There are simpler ways to do that. Maybe not as accurate, but cheap enough -

https://morewinemaking.com/products/sulphite-test-kit.html

 

[NeverDie]

That's why I prefer not to bulk age after any kind of oxygen exposure. I don't want to monitor SO2 levels.

Unfortunately, it's not as easy to avoid as that, though. According to the second article that loveofrose linked to, you also need to compensate for any other kind of binding that might happen too.

 

[NeverDie]

There are simpler ways to do that. Maybe not as accurate, but cheap enough -

https://morewinemaking.com/products/sulphite-test-kit.html

It's plus or minus 30ppm in red wine. What about traditional mead? Would it be more accurate in mead or, for some reason, less accurate?

 

[NeverDie]

There are simpler ways to do that. Maybe not as accurate, but cheap enough -

https://morewinemaking.com/products/sulphite-test-kit.html

Hmmm.... According to this:

ascorbic acid and/or tannins will throw off the results. Makes me wonder if opti-white would throw it off as well? If nothing else, I guess I would also need the fancier test kit just to answer questions like this.

 

[Maylar]

It's plus or minus 30ppm in red wine. What about traditional mead? Would it be more accurate in mead or, for some reason, less accurate?

I haven't used my kit yet, but titration tests usually involve watching for a color change and I assume that's the issue with red wines. Same goes for testing TA, though with a pH meter you don't need the color indicator. Those automated SO2 testers are expensive.

 

[NeverDie]

Most modern mead makers add bentonite upfront so that the fermentation encourages the bentonite to contact as much surface as possible.

I've tried adding bentonite upfront in two separate Hornindal test batches, and both times it went sulfurous about half-way through fermentation. I guess maybe because the Bentonite is sequestering away nutrients? For that reason, until I get that sorted, I'm resorting to adding Bentonite after fermentation completes.

Anyone else experience this?

 

[Maylar]

I've tried adding bentonite upfront in two separate Hornindal test batches, and both times it went sulfurous about half-way through fermentation. I guess maybe because the Bentonite is sequestering away nutrients? For that reason, until I get that sorted, I'm resorting to adding Bentonite after fermentation completes.

Anyone else experience this?

Nope. When did you add it? I put it in a day after the first nutrient addition.

Edit: Bentonite can even be added after the 1/3 sugar break. It should have no affect on the nutrients.

 

[NeverDie]

Nope. When did you add it? I put it in a day after the first nutrient addition.

Edit: Bentonite can even be added after the 1/3 sugar break. It should have no affect on the nutrients.

I added it at the very beginning, before even pitching the yeast. I figured that way it would get the benefit of all the fermentation "boiling" that happens around high Krausen (which peaks around 1.09-1.095SG in these 1.105OG Hornindal test batches).

I'll try adding it later, as you suggest. Thanks!