Is GFCI really needed?

[Lax coach]

A circuit without GFCI protection can be wired perfectly but it is not designed to protect you from shock and possible death if you accidentally insert your body into the circuit. That protection is offered by an additional device called a GFCI.

Correct. A breaker is designed to protect the wiring and outlets, by ensuring that no more than the rated current passes through them. #10 wire and a 30 amp outlet could start a fire if say, 100 amps were delivered through them. But the breaker doesn't care what those 30A (to use an example) are delivered to, just that the current doesn't exceed 30A.

The GFCI, on the other hand, is designed to protect people. It does this by ensuring that all current that flows out also flows back in. If there is more than a tiny variance, that means there is a (usually undesirable) current leakage somewhere, and the GFCI trips in case that somewhere is a human who is about to die a quick but horrible death. The GFCI doesn't care how much current is flowing, just that the return is balanced.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm glad you decided to get the GFCI.

Main panel GFCI breakers may break the bank. Instead, you could have a "Spa panel" (technically a sub panel) installed to connect your brewery to. A Spa panel includes a 240V GFCI breaker which should protect the 120V tap too. They run $75-120 (uninstalled).

 

[pbrennan10]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004IK9HNE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

thread inspired me to pick up one of these. I like the mobility.

 

[jcav]

I have an electric brewery and I also brew outside on the lanai by the pool. I have a GFCI breaker installed in my breaker box in the garage. Great peace of mind and the one time I might need it, it's there. Please do yourself a favor and get the GFCI breaker. It may just save your life one day, or another person or loved one that might touch your pot on a brew day that goes wrong......

John

 

[Chad Kious]

As a professional electrical engineer with experience testing GFCIs and investigating electrocutions, I was going to add to this thread. Clearly there is no lack of knowledgeable folks in this community, though. The important points have all been touched upon, but I'll still up the important bits.

1) Normal breakers protect wires from causing fires and do very little to project against shock.
2) GFCI is only specifically required by the National Electric Code in wet locations including bathrooms, kitchens, garages, and outdoors, however in specific applications like saltwater aquariums they are highly recommended.
3) Breakers can take hours to trip (really), GFCIs trip in milliseconds.
4) The point of protective devices isn't to protect you when everything is working correctly, they are there to protect you in the event that something fails. If the ground wire is broken somewhere in the path and the heating coil has a crack in it you have a lethal situation on your hands and a normal breaker will never trip (the ground path is primarily there for the purpose of letting enough fault current flow to trip a breaker).

 

[specialkayme]

I was trying to decide if I needed a GFCI when I was building my eBIAB set-up a month or so back. I was contemplating saving the cash and skipping the GFCI, but said the hell with it and built it anyway. My set-up has a 30 amp breaker going to a 50 amp GFCI sub-breaker to my eBIAB set up. Three brews in, everything was going great. When I started up my 4th brew, plugged in my heating element and the GFCI immediately tripped. I couldn't figure out what the problem was. Checked everything about a dozen times, but the GFCI kept tripping every time I plugged the heating element in. At this point, either the GFCI suddenly went bad, or there was a bigger wiring problem. I contemplated bypassing the GFCI, but sighed and sat down to take apart the plug on the heating element, thinking I might have to spend the next hour checking wirings. As soon as I opened the plug on the heating element, water poured out.

Apparently the plug was not as water proof as I thought it was, and the last time I cleaned it water got in the plug, but couldn't get out. The plug was literally full of water, and my hand was right on it as I plugged it into the power source about a dozen times. The GFCI saved me every time. Keep in mind the GFCI tripped, not the 30 amp breaker.

I may not have died if I didn't have the GFCI in that instance. But my heart sure was racing when I realized what had gone wrong, and what could have been worse if I didn't have the GFCI or chose to "bypass" it because I thought it might have gone bad.

 

[birzzz]

I was trying to decide if I needed a GFCI when I was building my eBIAB set-up a month or so back. I was contemplating saving the cash and skipping the GFCI, but said the hell with it and built it anyway. My set-up has a 30 amp breaker going to a 50 amp GFCI sub-breaker to my eBIAB set up. Three brews in, everything was going great. When I started up my 4th brew, plugged in my heating element and the GFCI immediately tripped. I couldn't figure out what the problem was. Checked everything about a dozen times, but the GFCI kept tripping every time I plugged the heating element in. At this point, either the GFCI suddenly went bad, or there was a bigger wiring problem. I contemplated bypassing the GFCI, but sighed and sat down to take apart the plug on the heating element, thinking I might have to spend the next hour checking wirings. As soon as I opened the plug on the heating element, water poured out.

Apparently the plug was not as water proof as I thought it was, and the last time I cleaned it water got in the plug, but couldn't get out. The plug was literally full of water, and my hand was right on it as I plugged it into the power source about a dozen times. The GFCI saved me every time. Keep in mind the GFCI tripped, not the 30 amp breaker.

I may not have died if I didn't have the GFCI in that instance. But my heart sure was racing when I realized what had gone wrong, and what could have been worse if I didn't have the GFCI or chose to "bypass" it because I thought it might have gone bad.

If your rig was properly grounded, even without a GFCI you would have been saved. The GFCI saves you when you have a short in your circuit AND a bad ground.

Regards,

 

[Vale71]

If your rig was properly grounded, even without a GFCI you would have been saved. The GFCI saves you when you have a short in your circuit AND a bad ground.

Regards,

You cannot say that with any certainty. Water is a poor conductor, while it was indeed creating a circuit with the ground connection (with enough current flowing through to trip the GFCI) it was in no way shorted. It's possible or even likely that this would not have tripped the breaker and hence the operator would have remained unaware of the fault. Then you grab the kettle and some current starts flowing through you as well and still the breaker does not trip...

 

[specialkayme]

If your rig was properly grounded, even without a GFCI you would have been saved.

An "If" I'm happy I didn't find the answer to though.

 

[itsnotrequired]

As a professional electrical engineer with experience testing GFCIs and investigating electrocutions, I was going to add to this thread. Clearly there is no lack of knowledgeable folks in this community, though. The important points have all been touched upon, but I'll still up the important bits.

1) Normal breakers protect wires from causing fires and do very little to project against shock.
2) GFCI is only specifically required by the National Electric Code in wet locations including bathrooms, kitchens, garages, and outdoors, however in specific applications like saltwater aquariums they are highly recommended.
3) Breakers can take hours to trip (really), GFCIs trip in milliseconds.
4) The point of protective devices isn't to protect you when everything is working correctly, they are there to protect you in the event that something fails. If the ground wire is broken somewhere in the path and the heating coil has a crack in it you have a lethal situation on your hands and a normal breaker will never trip (the ground path is primarily there for the purpose of letting enough fault current flow to trip a breaker).

to expand upon point 2, the nec isn't even as all-inclusive as you indicate. assuming we are limiting the discussion to residential, the requirements for gfci only applies to 15 or 20 amp receptacles operating at 120 volts. 240 volt circuits, hard-wired utilization equipment, 30 amp or greater circuits, none of those require a gfci. you could have a 30 amp, 240 volt receptacle right next to a sink and code would not require a gfci.

of course, code is the MINIMUM and common sense should prevail. so the electrician in the op's post was technically correct in that the receptacle didn't need to be gfci but that doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. i have a gfci on my setup and i wouldn't even think to not have it.

this is also a good time to remind everyone to test you gfcis! they can fail and you will get no notification that they are not functioning properly (of course, until you actually need it...)

 

[birzzz]

No way on earth I'd buy a used GFCI breaker. But hey, different strokes....

I picked up the unit, and after all, it was still in the box, brand new. Not a bad deal, 45$ [emoji4]

 

[itsnotrequired]

You cannot say that with any certainty. Water is a poor conductor, while it was indeed creating a circuit with the ground connection (with enough current flowing through to trip the GFCI) it was in no way shorted. It's possible or even likely that this would not have tripped the breaker and hence the operator would have remained unaware of the fault. Then you grab the kettle and some current starts flowing through you as well and still the breaker does not trip...

there are essentially unlimited paths to ground that can be created during a fault and current will flow through all of them, regardless of the resistance. sure, most of it will be through the path of least resistance but not all of it. so it is very conceivable to have thousands of times more current flowing through the ground connection compared to your body but it could still be enough through your body to make you have a very bad day.

 

[Dland]

I've gotten a little "nip" while unplugging heat element on HLT after a little water splashed on it. Did not hurt that much, but got my attention as I knew it was a 240V 30A circuit. Since I brew in all weather, I got some GFCI breakers.

Something just occurred to me; If the GFCI breakers work by comparing ground to neutral, (I think that is how they work), then how can they provide protection on the three wire plugs that generally are on the heat elements? Most brew controls have 4 wires going in, but only send two hots and a ground to the elements.

 

[Dland]

I picked up the unit, and after all, it was still in the box, brand new. Not a bad deal, 45$

Make sure you test it, when they go bad, they look the same. If someone unscrupulous was replacing a bad breaker, they could just put it in the box the new one came. Square D home-line only $91 at Zoro.

 

[passedpawn]

Something just occurred to me; If the GFCI breakers work by comparing ground to neutral, (I think that is how they work), then how can they provide protection on the three wire plugs that generally are on the heat elements? Most brew controls have 4 wires going in, but only send two hots and a ground to the elements.

GFI's sum all the currrents. If there is any missing current (5mA or more), they trip. Note that current is never reduced through a load, only voltage. ALL current returns to the breaker box - that's why it's called a circuit.

In a 120V (single phase) ckt, there are only two conductors, line and neutral. Normally, all current going out the line will return on the neutral. If it isn't, you've got a ground fault.

In a 240V (split phase) ckt, there are 3 conductors. L1, L2, and neutral. Same rule applies, but the GFI must sum 3 conductors instead of two.

The GFI does not use the ground at all - it passes right around the GFI breaker. In fact, the GFI will work just fine without a ground present. But it's still important to ground the kettles and any other exposed metal so that a live fault in the kettle will cause the GFI to trigger.

 

[Austin_]

this is also a good time to remind everyone to test you gfcis! they can fail and you will get no notification that they are not functioning properly (of course, until you actually need it...)

Is that as simple as hitting the test button and seeing if it trips? If that works, is there anything else that could be wrong with it? Mine also has LEDs on it that are supposed to possibly alert me to an issue, but nothing has lit up yet.

I ask because I installed my gfci breaker myself. Before every brew I hit the test button to see if it trips, but I'm closer to a clown than an electrician, so I always have a little doubt in the back of my mind that I wired it correctly.

 

[passedpawn]

Is that as simple as hitting the test button and seeing if it trips? If that works, is there anything else that could be wrong with it? Mine also has LEDs on it that are supposed to possibly alert me to an issue, but nothing has lit up yet.

I ask because I installed my gfci breaker myself. Before every brew I hit the test button to see if it trips, but I'm closer to a clown than an electrician, so I always have a little doubt in the back of my mind that I wired it correctly.

There are two tests you should do with a GFCI breaker to determine if it's working:

1. At the GFCI breaker, press the test button. It should "trip". There will likely be a snap sound and a red indicator.
2. Make sure that when it trips, it actually opens the ckt. Check your brew panel and make sure it is off.

 

[Austin_]

1. Make sure that when it trips, it actually opens the ckt. Check your brew panel and make sure it is off.

Oh yeah, duh! That makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Vale71]

Is that as simple as hitting the test button and seeing if it trips? If that works, is there anything else that could be wrong with it? Mine also has LEDs on it that are supposed to possibly alert me to an issue, but nothing has lit up yet.

I ask because I installed my gfci breaker myself. Before every brew I hit the test button to see if it trips, but I'm closer to a clown than an electrician, so I always have a little doubt in the back of my mind that I wired it correctly.

If you're really worried you might have messed up the installation, you can purchase an outlet tester with GFCI testing function. It'll have a button that will let you cause a (controlled) fault that should trip your GFCI instantly (without burning the house down in the process ).

 

[zolakk]

If you're really worried you might have messed up the installation, you can purchase an outlet tester with GFCI testing function. It'll have a button that will let you cause a (controlled) fault that should trip your GFCI instantly (without burning the house down in the process ).

This raises a question for me: do GFCI breakers have a limited number of times they can trip (including tests) before going "bad". I have heard that normal breakers do, and that is why you shouldn't also use them as a disconnect. I did have an issue last year where my pool pump was randomly tripping the breaker and when I hit the test button on the 30amp breaker I got showered in sparks and needed new pants but I'm not sure if it was related to the number of times the breaker tripped or some other internal failure.

 

[Dland]

GFI's sum all the currrents. If there is any missing current (5mA or more), they trip. Note that current is never reduced through a load, only voltage. ALL current returns to the breaker box - that's why it's called a circuit.


In a 240V (split phase) ckt, there are 3 conductors. L1, L2, and neutral. Same rule applies, but the GFI must sum 3 conductors instead of two.

The GFI does not use the ground at all - it passes right around the GFI breaker. In fact, the GFI will work just fine without a ground present. But it's still important to ground the kettles and any other exposed metal so that a live fault in the kettle will cause the GFI to trigger.

Thanks for the reply.

It was my understanding that three wire 240 is two hots and a ground, no neutral. You need 4 wires and a true neutral for if there will be different loads on the two hot legs, as in a brew controller with 120V pump switch, or a electric range with a 120 light and timer circuit.

But your right it probably does not matter to the GFCI breaker, as the ground and neutral are bonded at service panel.

I also did not state my question very well, what I was wondering is if GFCI breaker at service panel that is feeding brew controller, in my case a Auber Cube, protects user from controller 240V power feed, after the controller circuitry.

 

[passedpawn]

Thanks for the reply.

It was my understanding that three wire 240 is two hots and a ground, no neutral. You need 4 wires and a true neutral for if there will be different loads on the two hot legs, as in a brew controller with 120V pump switch, or a electric range with a 120 light and timer circuit.

But your right it probably does not matter to the GFCI breaker, as the ground and neutral are bonded at service panel.

I also did not state my question very well, what I was wondering is if GFCI breaker at service panel that is feeding brew controller, in my case a Auber Cube, protects user from controller 240V power feed, after the controller circuitry.

For anyone with a 3-wire outlet, I'd swap it out for a 4-wire. If this is the only outlet on the ckt (often the case) and the 3rd wire is insulated, use it as neutral and pull a safety ground from elsewhere nearby. Then, make sure that neutral wire gets connected to one of the 3 terminals on the GFCI (if you send it back to ground bus bar, it'll trip instantly). Not sure if that's code I'm sure one of our members will come in here and chastise me, I probably deserve it.

Regarding your question, everything connected to that ckt is going to be 100% safe in the case of faults to ground - even after the auber controller.

 

[Dland]

Thanks for the reply, glad to know we're safe at the kettle end of the wire.

That finding jumper ground might not be such a good idea though. If one needs 4 wires, they should probably all be from breaker.

 

[Chad Kious]

Yes, the GFCI will protect against leakage faults for anything downstream, regardless of the number of wires in use. It detects any current that finds a return path that is not correct (such as you).

 

[lschiavo]

This raises a question for me: do GFCI breakers have a limited number of times they can trip (including tests) before going "bad". I have heard that normal breakers do, and that is why you shouldn't also use them as a disconnect. I did have an issue last year where my pool pump was randomly tripping the breaker and when I hit the test button on the 30amp breaker I got showered in sparks and needed new pants but I'm not sure if it was related to the number of times the breaker tripped or some other internal failure.

I believe GFCI devices still have "test monthly" printed on them. That seems like they should be capable of quite a few cycles in a lifetime.

 

[Vale71]

This raises a question for me: do GFCI breakers have a limited number of times they can trip (including tests) before going "bad". I have heard that normal breakers do, and that is why you shouldn't also use them as a disconnect. I did have an issue last year where my pool pump was randomly tripping the breaker and when I hit the test button on the 30amp breaker I got showered in sparks and needed new pants but I'm not sure if it was related to the number of times the breaker tripped or some other internal failure.

That breaker was probably not fast enough tripping and finally got damaged by the excessive load induced by the pump.

 

[golfindia]

Is that as simple as hitting the test button and seeing if it trips? If that works, is there anything else that could be wrong with it? Mine also has LEDs on it that are supposed to possibly alert me to an issue, but nothing has lit up yet.

I ask because I installed my gfci breaker myself. Before every brew I hit the test button to see if it trips, but I'm closer to a clown than an electrician, so I always have a little doubt in the back of my mind that I wired it correctly.

When they go bad, they usually fail open. Not unsafe, but a PITA. GFCI breakers have a finite number of cycles. There is no way you can tell if one is nearing its end. That is why I wouldn't pay someone for a used one. But if it's new in the box you should be fine.

 

[golfindia]

Apparently the plug was not as water proof as I thought it was, and the last time I cleaned it water got in the plug, but couldn't get out. The plug was literally full of water, and my hand was right on it as I plugged it into the power source about a dozen times. The GFCI saved me every time. Keep in mind the GFCI tripped, not the 30 amp breaker.
.

This is why I never seal plugs I make myself. Even if it's not in a wet environment, they can collect condensation from heat/cool cycles which increases corrosion. Better to just leave them open to breath/drain.

 

[ajdelange]

All the current in a circuit is supposed to flow in the red, black and white wires. If any circuit current flows anywhere else then a GFCI in that circuit will trip. This is good news if the stray current is flowing through you and bad news if it is flowing somewhere else you can't find (like on my deck up north).