IPA clarity issues...

[mclamb6]

Need some help...my last few IPA's have had substantial clarity issues. Each has been heavily dry hopped. I understand that the byproducts from the dry hopping will lead to some haziness. But my end product isn't hazy. It's opaque. It looks like juice. The taste is fine, but it's not the most visually appealing. It does not clear with time. Only when I am at the last two-ish pints of the keg does it start to clear.

Additional notes on my process:

All grain recipes, 5 gallon batches. Irish moss added at 10 minutes left in the boil. Typically do a hop stand for the flame out addition. Immersion chiller. Brewing in Phoenix makes it a bit more difficult to chill quickly, but every other style of beer that I brew comes out clear (including a hop forward, but not dry hopped, English IPA). Packaging is a corny keg. I had been dry hopping in the keg, and leaving the hops in the keg until the keg kicked. I cold crash. Beer is served around 45-50 degrees.

I thought that dry hopping in the keg might be the culprit. So, on the last DIPA I brewed, I cold crashed prior to dry hopping, brought the temp back up to mid-60's, dry-hopped, removed the dry hops, then cold crashed again. No change--milky, juice like appearance (last brew was a brown DIPA--it looked similar to prune juice).

I don't use post-fermentation finings. One time I attempted to use gelatin after fermentation, and after I carbed the beer (I initially thought a few more days at serving temp would clear the beer). There was no change, although I'm not confident that my process was correct.

Again, I don't expect a crystal clear finished product when dry hopping, and I actually like the appearance of the light haze in an IPA. But as I mentioned, it's not a light haze.

Thoughts?

 

[thefost]

I'm having a similar issue and looking forward to ideas in this thread.

The only thing I can think of for me is I have been dumping a lot of the trub and hops into the fermenter without filtering it much. Any chance you are doing the same?

When you say "packaging is a corny keg" do you mean you ferment in a corny, or just serve in a corny?

 

[flars]

An IPA recipe that has gone from hazy to opaque may be due to starch haze. Was there any change to your mashing on this one? Possible dough balls in the mash? Mash time?

 

[Yooper]

A haze caused by hops is usually just a little bit of haze. It's definitely not opaque or murky.

I assume the wort was murky going into the boil kettle? Or was it clear, and then got murky during the boil? Or was it clear coming out of the boil kettle, and then murky? If we can nail down when the wort was clear, but then not, we can pinpoint the cause.

Clarity problems can come from mash pH issues, lack of a hot break, lack of a cold break, high protein grists (like lots of wheat), non-flocculant yeast, etc, so any info you can provide can help us figure out the cause.

Since every other beer is clear, that does narrow it down a bit. Have you noticed clear wort from the MLT when you make IPAs? Or is it murky then as well? Clear wort will generally make clear beer. I assume you get the proper mash pH? Or, if you don't check mash pH, what is your water like?

 

[mclamb6]

I don't check mash pH.

RO water purchased from a local store (I get all water there).

Mash low for IPAs--148-150.

Wort is generally clear after vorlauf and heading into the kettle. At least I don't notice a clarity difference from other styles.

Everything--hot/cold break, hop trub--goes into the fermenter (I do this for all styles).

 

[thefost]

Everything--hot/cold break, hop trub--goes into the fermenter (I do this for all styles).

Well that makes me much more suspicious that all the hops in the fermenterr are the problem. We both have the exact same problem with only IPAs and do the exact same thing dumping all the hops in.

My next batch I am going to use a hop bag and see if that helps.

 

[rmyurick]

If you are mashing at 148-150, you may need a 90 minute rest for complete conversion, depending on the grind. Also, you should probably check your thermometer just in case it's reading high.

 

[mclamb6]

If you are mashing at 148-150, you may need a 90 minute rest for complete conversion, depending on the grind. Also, you should probably check your thermometer just in case it's reading high.

I use a Thermapen. I'm confident that my mash temps are accurate.

For reference, I just brewed a Belgian golden strong ale. I did 45 minutes at 145, then stepped up to 154-155 for 15. Zero clarity issues.

Also, if I had a conversion issue, wouldn't it be apparent in my OG? I don't tend to come up short on my OG (just the opposite in fact).

 

[Yooper]

I use a Thermapen. I'm confident that my mash temps are accurate.

For reference, I just brewed a Belgian golden strong ale. I did 45 minutes at 145, then stepped up to 154-155 for 15. Zero clarity issues.

Also, if I had a conversion issue, wouldn't it be apparent in my OG? I don't tend to come up short on my OG (just the opposite in fact).

No, you could have a perfectly fine OG without complete conversion.

You use RO water? That's fine. Do you add anything to your water? Acid to lower pH? Gypsum for hoppy beers? Or just straight RO water?

 

[mclamb6]

I typically add some gypsum to the water, but that's it.

I tend to mash low on most of my beers, so I'm skeptical that it's a conversion issue. I would think if that was the cause, I'd see it in my non-hoppy, high gravity beers. (Although I need to start tracking my mash times in my brew log). I guess it's possible that it's lack of full conversion, and whatever residuals are in the wort as a result of failing to convert are combining with the dry hop byproducts to form the haze.

I've never done anything re: the pH of my water or mash.

And I shouldn't say for 100% certainty that it is RO water. The guy has a pretty elaborate filtration system in his store.

The weirdest part about it is that it doesn't ever drop out. When I hold a beer to the light, I can see around the edges where it's clearer and the haze begins.

 

[Calichusetts]

Many of the best examples of hoppy brews in general are not even close to clear. Just remember that. Is the goal hoppiness or clarity? I understand your desire here but I learned to give up on clarity long ago.

Still, consider the following:

Filtering hops out after steep/whirlpool.

Letting the beer sit for 3 weeks followed by a good cold crash. I've had some pretty hoppy beers with this schedule but its not consistent.

A week in the fridge seems to clear up the beers very well.

Good luck

 

[mclamb6]

I brewed a session IPA this weekend. A few differences from my standard IPA/DIPA process.

Grist:

9 lbs Vienna
.75 lbs medium home roasted Vienna
.25 lbs light home roasted Vienna
.5 lbs flaked rye

Hop schedule (all Simcoe whole cone hops)

.75 oz @ 20
.75 oz @ 10
1 oz @ 5
3.5 oz @ FO (1.5 immediately at FO, 20 minute hop stand; chill to 180, add 2 oz, another 20 minute hop stand)

Dry hopping with 1.5 oz each of whole cone Simcoe and Centennial.

Mashed at 151 for 60 minutes
60 minute boil

SA-04 yeast

Biggest differences:

Mashed at 151 vs. 147-148 (I actually intended to mash at 152-153).
Whirlfloc tablet vs. a tsp of Irish moss
Strained out most of the hops/trub when transferring to fermenter
Dry English ale yeast (had been using San Diego or Chico (liquid and dry))

Other notes:

Wort was reasonably clear out of the kettle after vorlauf
Flaked rye may contribute some haze
This yeast should drop pretty clear

Hoping to go grain to glass in 2 weeks. Will report back.

 

[mclamb6]

Many of the best examples of hoppy brews in general are not even close to clear. Just remember that. Is the goal hoppiness or clarity? I understand your desire here but I learned to give up on clarity long ago.

Still, consider the following:

Filtering hops out after steep/whirlpool.

Letting the beer sit for 3 weeks followed by a good cold crash. I've had some pretty hoppy beers with this schedule but its not consistent.

A week in the fridge seems to clear up the beers very well.

Good luck

It's not a normal haze. Light cannot pass through my beer. It looks like juice.

Also, it doesn't clear up. Ever. Not after a cold crash. Not after after a month in the keg. It doesn't go away.

I appreciate the feedback, but I've had more than enough commercial IPAs and brewed enough to know what would be in the range of normal. This isn't it.

 

[jmhbutler]

I'd refer to this blog posted below. The tips and tweeks found in here got my beer from hazy to sparkling clear. I must note that in my 5 years of brewing, my first sparkling clear pale ale delivered the biggest sense of achievement I've felt since drinking my own first homebrew.

http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/02/how-to-fix-and-prevent-chill-haze.html
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/06/how-to-clear-your-beer-with-gelatin.html

 

[thefost]

I brewed a session IPA this weekend. A few differences from my standard IPA/DIPA process.

Grist:

9 lbs Vienna
.75 lbs medium home roasted Vienna
.25 lbs light home roasted Vienna
.5 lbs flaked rye

Hop schedule (all Simcoe whole cone hops)

.75 oz @ 20
.75 oz @ 10
1 oz @ 5
3.5 oz @ FO (1.5 immediately at FO, 20 minute hop stand; chill to 180, add 2 oz, another 20 minute hop stand)

Dry hopping with 1.5 oz each of whole cone Simcoe and Centennial.

Mashed at 151 for 60 minutes
60 minute boil

SA-04 yeast

Biggest differences:

Mashed at 151 vs. 147-148 (I actually intended to mash at 152-153).
Whirlfloc tablet vs. a tsp of Irish moss
Strained out most of the hops/trub when transferring to fermenter
Dry English ale yeast (had been using San Diego or Chico (liquid and dry))

Other notes:

Wort was reasonably clear out of the kettle after vorlauf
Flaked rye may contribute some haze
This yeast should drop pretty clear

Hoping to go grain to glass in 2 weeks. Will report back.

Great, keep us posted. I'd bet money that straining the hops is going to do it. I was thinking on it and I made an overhopped blonde recently that came out crystal clear. The only difference from my usual technique, I used leaf hops in a paint strainer bag. Every other hoppy beer I've dumped pellet hops in the fermenter and gotten the permanent milky haze.

I just bought a brewers hardare trub strainer, when that arrives this week I am immediately making an IPA. I'm going to split the batch and dump the hops back in half of it to see what happens.

 

[rmyurick]

I'm curious about the Vienna Malt as the base malt. It reportedly has less diastatic power than Pale Ale malt--enough to theoretically convert itself, but not much more.

 

[rmyurick]

OK, didn't realize you were carrying over hops from the boil into the fermenter--that could be it.

Also, when I've dry-hopped with pellets, I fasten a hop bag around the bottom of the racking wand before sticking it in--seems to work pretty well. I think if I didn't do that, the plastic doohickey that keeps it off the bottom would get clogged pretty fast.

 

[mclamb6]

I'm curious about the Vienna Malt as the base malt. It reportedly has less diastatic power than Pale Ale malt--enough to theoretically convert itself, but not much more.

I didn't seem to have any problems hitting my anticipated OG. I was in the 73% to 78% efficiency range, depending on how much wort was sucked up by the hops.

 

[rmyurick]

I'm not an expert in brewing chemistry, but I think it's possible to have dissolved starch that is not converted to sugar, which would contribute to gravity. I don't think you even need a lot of starch to cause a haze.

I brewed an ESB that took a long time to clear--didn't even have excessive amts. of hops. Also didn't have very good head retention. I'm not sure that incomplete conversion was the cause, but I think it's possible. Maris Otter & 3/4lb crystal. Wyeast 1469. Mashed around 150. Don't remember if I did a mash-out, which I usually do at 168F.

Your issue may be something completely different--it could indeed be the hops, if you're dry-hopping in the keg.

 

[mclamb6]

I'm not an expert in brewing chemistry, but I think it's possible to have dissolved starch that is not converted to sugar, which would contribute to gravity. I don't think you even need a lot of starch to cause a haze.

I brewed an ESB that took a long time to clear--didn't even have excessive amts. of hops. Also didn't have very good head retention. I'm not sure that incomplete conversion was the cause, but I think it's possible. Maris Otter & 3/4lb crystal. Wyeast 1469. Mashed around 150. Don't remember if I did a mash-out, which I usually do at 168F.

Your issue may be something completely different--it could indeed be the hops, if you're dry-hopping in the keg.

I'm just not sure why this would be an issue only with dry-hopped beers--if it was poor conversion, I'd think it would appear in non-dry hopped beers that are mashed low...

Also, this happens whether or not I dry hop in the keg.

 

[mjohnson]

What are your water additions like for your RO water? I don't know if the science would back me up on this, but if I go too light on calcium, I get hazier beer. I typically build my water from RO and only add CaCl and CaSO4.

I've also read that CaCl pellets can retain water from humidity. So, 1g of fresh CaCl might not have the same amount as 1g of CaCl that has been subjected to humidity.

 

[2drunk2]

How is there not a picture yet?

 

[mclamb6]

How is there not a picture yet?

Beer just went into the fermenter on Sunday. At 1.045 with SA-04, it should be done pretty quick though.

 

[2drunk2]

Gotcha

 

[rmyurick]

mclamb6, was your malt bill the same for all those beers? The clear and the non-clear?

 

[LakeErieMonster]

This happened to me the last time i brewed a double IPA... it looked completely fine/normal in primary, then i transferred to secondary and added 3oz of hops. Upon adding the hops, it immediately turned to something resembling brown orangejuice, or really opaque apple cider. I let it sit for a week on the hops, took the hops out and let it chill in my keezer for another 3 weeks. Still opaque. I ended up using gelatin, which helped immensely. The gelatin changed it from opaque to transparent after 3 days (the first time i checked after adding the gelatin).

 

[BreezyBrew]

This happened to me the last time i brewed a double IPA... it looked completely fine/normal in primary, then i transferred to secondary and added 3oz of hops. Upon adding the hops, it immediately turned to something resembling brown orangejuice, or really opaque apple cider. I let it sit for a week on the hops, took the hops out and let it chill in my keezer for another 3 weeks. Still opaque. I ended up using gelatin, which helped immensely. The gelatin changed it from opaque to transparent after 3 days (the first time i checked after adding the gelatin).

Pellets or leaf?

 

[Chris7687]

I get the same problems you are. Check out some pictures from my problem. The beer will never clear, no matter how many weeks I leave it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/cold-crash-separation-372956/

 

[LakeErieMonster]

Pellets or leaf?

Pellets. the dryhop was no different than the many other times I have done it, but the results were...

 

[mclamb6]

mclamb6, was your malt bill the same for all those beers? The clear and the non-clear?

No, not all the same.

However, when I brewed a non-dry hopped English IPA, it came out clear while using Marris Otter as the base malt. It came out with a slight haze. My dry-hopped IPAs have similar grain bills to that.