Investing in a proprietary homebrew ecosystem?

[KookyBrewsky]

Hello everyone,

Relatively new here, however I have fallen in love with the hobby.

I have brewed 5 extracts and am already looking forward to all-grain brewing. My base question is, is it worth investing in a proprietary system such as Ss Brewtech or Spike? I personally don't care either way for ecosystems but I wouldn't be against it.

If I'm going to spend a decent chunk of change getting going in all-grain brewing I plan on not skimping and having to invest even more in the future. My main concern is with temp control, and most of these proprietary systems have some sort of temp control add on. I've seen plenty of fermentation chamber DIY builds, but chest freezers are scarce around here as I've checked often, and run upwards of $300-$400 new. Mini-fridges can run from $100-$200 used or new depending on size. The cooling systems for these proprietary ecosystems look to be around $250 max.

So to those who went from something such as basic extract brewing on a stove / plastic buckets to a proprietary homebrew system, was it it worth it? Any advice for those of us interested in investing in them? Would it just be better to piecemeal using simpler products like Igloo mash tuns, etc.?

Lastly, what kind of output do you get with such systems? I know they're good for x gallon batches depending on what you buy, but right now I can have quite a few batches sitting in plastic fermenters once they're out of the ice bath in a storage tub (which holds two anyway). That means I can have 4-6 five gallon batches going at once, staggered by 5-7 days or whenever I decide to raise temps to room.

Sorry for the wall of text. This is just me looking to the future even though I don't plan on getting any new gear for half a year or more.

 

[cmac62]

Kooky, I went from cooler MT and turkey fryer burner with a keggle for my BK, using buckets and big mouth bubblers for fermentation, to a Tippy Dump system from More Beer. It is a good system, but for a 5 gal batch it's a bit of overkill. If you want to make big batches or brew super often it may be worth it to go for the pre-built system. Of course you can always get more bang for your buck buying used. I bought both of my systems off of Craig's List (first) and Offer up (second). As far as temp control I'm thinking a second hand fridge should work fine. Good luck and brew on.

 

[Jim R]

I am also fairly new to homebrewing and went straight to all grain brewing for my 5 gal batches. I have no problem spending money on my hobbies but I didn't want to waste money buying cheap stuff that I would quickly replace. I ended up buying a SS Brewtech Brew Bucket fermenter which works great and is easy to clean. For fermentation temperature control I bought a $180 new mini refrigerator which I needed anyway for my kegs (Home Depot) and a $35 Inkbird temperature controller which work great for very precise temperature control. I also bought a $35 Fermotemp heater wrap for the fermenter but I am not sure it is really needed. I am glad I didn't purchase the more expensive SS Brewtech heating and cooling systems as my simple system works perfect and also keeps my kegs cold.

For my Mash Tun, I bought a $20 - 5 gallon Igloo cooler (Walmart) and a stainless false bottom and stainless steel valve ($69) that works great for mashing. It would be nice if it held 6 or 7 gallons but otherwise is perfect.

I also bought a copper coil immersion cooler and a small utility pump ($45) that I use in a cooler ice bath for faster wort chilling. I use my garden hose first and then switch to the ice bath recirculation system for faster cooling. This all was pretty cheap and easy to use.

I also didn't want to mess around with cleaning bottles and bottling so I went straight to kegging. Of course this added a fair amount to my cost but makes the whole brewing process easier and more fun. It is also very cool to have tap beer. For me, kegging was money well spent and is worth more than fancier fermenters or mashing equipment.

Now after brewing for a short time, it would be hard for me to justify spending more money on fancier equipment for brewing my 5-6 batches per year when this system seems to all work great. I probably spent about $1000 on my system up front including all the kegging equipment.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

Thanks for the comments... The biggest thing to me is "inevitability" and ending up purchasing the equipment I want after purchasing a bunch of cheaper stuff... I already have a small investment in all sorts of gear for extract that'd be suitable for BIAB, all I'd need to buy is the bag and perhaps a new brew pot. I think I will start there when the time comes, because no matter what I do I will need to get a chest freezer or mini-fridge with temp control. Perhaps a few years down the road I will invest in a really nice system. Thanks again!

 

[SanPancho]

You’re missing the main bottleneck- consumption. You gonna drink 5 gals a week? If not then you don’t need that amount of production volume.

figure out how much you drink per week or month. How long you’re willing to sit on a beer in weeks or months. Then work backwards.

unless you’re supplying the Nbhd or large numbers of family /friends it’s not uncommon to find that half batches can be ideal. Plus a lot of other cool things about half batches.
In any case, start with consumption then work backwards.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

You’re missing the main bottleneck- consumption. You gonna drink 5 gals a week? If not then you don’t need that amount of production volume.

figure out how much you drink per week or month. How long you’re willing to sit on a beer in weeks or months. Then work backwards.

unless you’re supplying the Nbhd or large numbers of family /friends it’s not uncommon to find that half batches can be ideal. Plus a lot of other cool things about half batches.
In any case, start with consumption then work backwards.

I plan on giving a decent amount of it away and have from the first batch I made.

One problem is it takes 6 weeks minimum to taste a beer in its relatively final state. That's a long time to know if it even turned out alright/it's something I'd want to drink any amount of at all for a while. I guess I'd allot half batches advantages and disadvantages, in that respect. If I don't like something, it's less of a waste. If I do, I'd have to replicate it exactly though and brew it more often. I do not plan on doing anything over 5 gallons, ever. However with all-grain brewing, the monetary difference between 2.5 and 5 gallons seems minimal ingredient wise besides a bit extra start up investment and I'm able to share it freely without running out as often.

 

[RPh_Guy]

One problem is it takes 6 weeks minimum to taste a beer in its relatively final state.

With good fermentation processes you can turn around an ale in about one week, maybe less.

 

[SanPancho]

True. Ingredient costs are a wash. But half batches have some definite equipment advantages. Although the most common equipment is sized for 5g batches, true.

in any case, just make sure those recipients are always gonna want the extras. Otherwise you’re liable to over build.

and maybe ponder if this early in the hobby you want more practice or more economy.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

With good fermentation processes you can turn around an ale in one week, maybe less.

How so? I've done a chipotle porter, chocolate stout, guava haze IPA, and Great Lakes pale ale, all of which should be about the same process... I've seen the minimum recommendations on here at 2 weeks fermenting with 3 weeks bottle conditioning before it tastes roughly correct. Kegging, maybe? Otherwise if what you're saying is true I'd love to finally open a chocolate stout after a week and half bottle conditioning D:

 

[RPh_Guy]

With proper yeast care, nutrient (i.e. zinc), and temp control, fermentation can complete in about 3-5 days depending on the yeast, gravity, etc.

Bottle carbonation takes 2-3 days with a good process (proper temperature, rousing the yeast).

 

[Bassman2003]

Brew systems can be all over the cost map, so I would focus on refrigeration. I purchased a nice wine fridge that has a digital temp adjustment from 39f to 65f. That range allows me to brew a lot of styles. It was a great investment and something I am still using today. Just make sure you get one with a large enough inside to fit a 6.5 gal bucket with airlock sticking out of the top.

Next you might want to look at an all in one like an Anvil Foundry. For $350 it is hard to beat for value.

The comes kegging and another full size fridge off of Craigslist. And the wheel keeps

 

[KookyBrewsky]

With proper yeast care, nutrient (i.e. zinc), and temp control, fermentation can complete in about 3-5 days depending on the yeast, gravity, etc.

Bottle carbonation takes 2-3 days with a good process (proper temperature, rousing the yeast).

Hmm, ok, I have honestly not read that once while doing my research, but I trust you. I'm guessing the bottleneck here are my processes... Perhaps I'll toss that extra chocolate stout in the fridge tomorrow morning and give it a whirl. My 5th batch, I believe to be my best. I didn't make a single mistake that'd affect the end product as far as I can tell and it was the first time I created a yeast starter using a stir plate.

Alright, first thing's first. I'm going to have to get temp control under my grasp. If I don't get some expensive system with temp control addons built in like Ss Brewtech, it's going to have to be a chest freezer.

 

[SanPancho]

Yeah, no. Unless you’re talking about a euro style table beer or something super simple.

Anything hoppy or dark is gonna keep maturing and evolving. Will it technically be done fermenting? Sure. Carbed? Seems tight, but ok.

but the bottles you drink in week two will be different vs week six. Maybe better, maybe worse. But the more complex the beer the more it evolves.

 

[Beholder]

Hmm, ok, I have honestly not read that once while doing my research, but I trust you. I'm guessing the bottleneck here are my processes... Perhaps I'll toss that extra chocolate stout in the fridge tomorrow morning and give it a whirl. My 5th batch, I believe to be my best. I didn't make a single mistake that'd affect the end product as far as I can tell and it was the first time I created a yeast starter using a stir plate.

Alright, first thing's first. I'm going to have to get temp control under my grasp. If I don't get some expensive system with temp control addons built in like Ss Brewtech, it's going to have to be a chest freezer.

IME, you can hit FG in a couple days, though yeast keeps working in cleaning up. I have never had a case of a beer tasted at week 1 that wasn’t better at week 2 and reaching a taste steady state at week 3 (not counting big beers that do well with months for the flavors to meld). There are some that follow a 3 week guide regardless based on that experience.

A pipeline is good to slightly over size for this facet, so the need to rush a batch is subdued. With a unitank, I taste throughout, which is how I have come to appreciate the value of time, even if not measurable in the metrics. YMMV.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

Yeah, no. Unless you’re talking about a euro style table beer or something super simple.

Anything hoppy or dark is gonna keep maturing and evolving. Will it technically be done fermenting? Sure. Carbed? Seems tight, but ok.

but the bottles you drink in week two will be different vs week six. Maybe better, maybe worse. But the more complex the beer the more it evolves.

I am sticking to a simple 3 and 3 (3 weeks in primary, 3 weeks conditioning) before I taste them. Now I am conflicted. My beers are relatively simple, except for maybe the chocolate stout and guava haze IPA. I don't expect week 3 to be the same as week 10, but I'd expect the difference to be less in magnitude versus week 1 and 3.

 

[oakbarn]

I would look into BruControl or a BCS 482. I personally like Stout or Brewer's Hardware for my vessels. Well made and standard. I have both a 10g and 20 G SS Brewtech MLT and one issue I have is that there is no way to really automate except with their proprietary ($$$) stuff easily. And standard Temp probe will not fit an SS Brewtech thermowell. I had to get some thin ones, That being said, the SS Brewtech MLTs hold the temps well.

You could grow with either system and there is a learning curve, The BCS is more limited (no 4-20mA) and a limited amounts of Inputs and Outputs, and only 8 Temp probes.

BruControl allows you to grow exponentially. If you can think it, you can likely find a solution with BruControl.

Cost wise, the BCS 482 will turn out less expensive, as it is limited.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

I would look into BruControl or a BCS 482. I personally like Stout or Brewer's Hardware for my vessels. Well made and standard. I have both a 10g and 20 G SS Brewtech MLT and one issue I have is that there is no way to really automate except with their proprietary ($$$) stuff easily. And standard Temp probe will not fit an SS Brewtech thermowell. I had to get some thin ones, That being said, the SS Brewtech MLTs hold the temps well.

You could grow with either system and there is a learning curve, The BCS is more limited (no 4-20mA) and a limited amounts of Inputs and Outputs, and only 8 Temp probes.

BruControl allows you to grow exponentially. If you can think it, you can likely find a solution with BruControl.

Cost wise, the BCS 482 will turn out less expensive, as it is limited.

Thanks for the suggestions, BruControl looks neat, I've a little experience with Pis but would need a refresher.

 

[McKnuckle]

Don't be derailed by the assertion that you can turn around an ale in one week. Sure you can, but only with a lot of care, process discipline, and purposeful ingredient selection. However, most people don't, and brewing fast is not in and of itself a best practice.

Your three weeks in primary could be cut down to 5-14 days, dependent on style and yeast. But 3 weeks conditioning is great, so stick with your gut, and with your patience - which is an essential brewing skill!

I understand the desire to not spend extra money acquiring gear of various levels of quality, only to eventually blow a chunk on the "best" system for you. But there's a middle ground: Buy a few carefully selected, utilitarian, versatile basic pieces that will always get used for something, even if/when you upgrade: A cooler, a brew bag (a real one from Wilser, not a paint strainer bag from the hardware store), and a kettle of the right size will never go out of style. These items will let you learn how to brew with grain, and could last forever. Even the cooler is optional if you pick the right kettle (i.e. single vessel BIAB).

Look up Don Osborn on YouTube - he's from the Brewing TV crowd and has been a homebrew internet stalwart for many years. He still uses a cooler mash tun, a kettle over a propane burner, and glass carboys. A real anachronism perhaps, but that stuff just simply works - that's the message.

Now, I am not a Luddite. I enjoy elegant, well-designed systems of good value, and I have a few features that are important to me in mashing, boiling, fermenting, and serving. But I've learned those preferences over several years, brewing 120 batches, so there's no way I would have known about them at the very beginning. Spending a grand or more at the outset of my brewing journey would have been a waste for me.

This being said, if you want to buy a turn-key setup right away, it's hard to go wrong with the Anvil Foundry system (with its pump) for $479, and their fermenter for $130. You could spend a lot more, but you won't necessarily get a lot more.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

Don't be derailed by the assertion that you can turn around an ale in one week. Sure you can, but only with a lot of care, process discipline, and purposeful ingredient selection. However, most people don't, and brewing fast is not in and of itself a best practice.

Your three weeks in primary could be cut down to 5-14 days, dependent on style and yeast. But 3 weeks conditioning is great, so stick with your gut, and with your patience - which is an essential brewing skill!

I understand the desire to not spend extra money acquiring gear of various levels of quality, only to eventually blow a chunk on the "best" system for you. But there's a middle ground: Buy a few carefully selected, utilitarian, versatile basic pieces that will always get used for something, even if/when you upgrade: A cooler, a brew bag (a real one from Wilser, not a paint strainer bag from the hardware store), and a kettle of the right size will never go out of style. These items will let you learn how to brew with grain, and could last forever. Even the cooler is optional if you pick the right kettle (i.e. single vessel BIAB).

Look up Don Osborn on YouTube - he's from the Brewing TV crowd and has been a homebrew internet stalwart for many years. He still uses a cooler mash tun, a kettle over a propane burner, and glass carboys. A real anachronism perhaps, but that stuff just simply works - that's the message.

Now, I am not a Luddite. I enjoy elegant, well-designed systems of good value, and I have a few features that are important to me in mashing, boiling, fermenting, and serving. But I've learned those preferences over several years, brewing 120 batches, so there's no way I would have known about them at the very beginning. Spending a grand or more at the outset of my brewing journey would have been a waste for me.

This being said, if you want to buy a turn-key setup right away, it's hard to go wrong with the Anvil Foundry system (with its pump) for $479, and their fermenter for $130. You could spend a lot more, but you won't necessarily get a lot more.

That's true. I'm not much of a waster; let's say I went vegetarian, if someone was going to throw away half a hamburger they cut in two, I'd eat it (not vegetarian right now although I have been multiple times in the past, just an example). I think they'd call that "flexitarian". That's why I'd like to still utilize the gear I already have without it going to waste.

I'm currently back and forth on OfferUp for a small freezer, waiting on dimensions. I'll be honest, the one thing I don't enjoy using on brew day is my brew pot, the bottom has become concave after the first two uses and makes it difficult to heat evenly, it's cheap but has worked for these 5 brews. I think I'd rather recycle it at this point and get a lifetime use out of an Ss Brewtech pot.

So based on all this, perhaps figuring out my temps and replacing things as I go is a better option. If I don't do BIAB, maybe it'd be nice to get something like the Anvil from homebrewing.org which is where I got most of my stuff from including my StirStarter. Marginal gains, like all hobbies.

Music is my main hobby, I've spent far more on synths and instruments than I ever will on brewing unless I can make a career out of it, which I'd LOVE after frequenting my local brewery the past 3 weeks. I have a pair of Sennhesier 6xx I got from MassDrop for $220 plus a decent DAC/amp and I never plan on upgrading. It's a middle ground. Some people could spend thousands for marginal gains just listening to music, but I'm fine right where I am.

 

[madscientist451]

I have brewed 5 extracts and am already looking forward to all-grain brewing. My base question is, is it worth investing in a proprietary system such as Ss Brewtech or Spike?

Whoa there pardner....you haven't brewed any all grain and you're looking at buying a high dollar "system"?
How about brewing 10, 20 or even 30 simple BIAB stove top batches first?
Put your cash into a small chest freezer and temp control, you'll be glad you did.
2.5/3 gallon kegs cost just as much as a new 5 gallon keg, but they will fit on the bottom shelf of your standard 'fridge. Or you can buy 2 chest freezers, one for fermenting, one for the kegs.
My second (used) chest freezer bit the dust, so lately I've been fermenting ales at ambient temps (my house is cold) and lagers down in the chilly basement (about 48F) and getting by with one chest freezer for the kegs.
I'm switching to Hothead yeast when temps warm up to keep the pipeline going.
So basically what I'm saying is brew smaller, simple stovetop BIAB batches for a while, which will require minimal investment, get temp. control fermentaon and a kegging set up BEFORE you buy a brewing rig.
I'm "brewing" tonight, right before I go to bed using simple BIAB methods.
I'll heat the water on the stove, add the grain in the bag, wrap it up in an old sweatshirt and go to bed, letting it mash overnight. In the morning, I'll pull the bag out, put it in a bucket and set the brew pot w/wort out on the back porch.
When I get home from work, I'll heat some water and do a "dunk sparge" with the grain bag while the main pot is heating up for the boil. Its an easy, no-stress way to brew without devoting a big chunk of time. Note: I can only do this method when its cold outside, once it gets warm, the wort will (or may) get funky.
But if you do 10-20 all-grain batches, you'll figure your own way and be better able to decide what "upgrades" will or won't work for you.
Music is also my main hobby and I can honestly say that putting time/money into music is a way better "investment"that putting time/money into brewing.
If you keep your brewing simple and cheap you'll have time and money for both pursuits.

 

[McKnuckle]

...let's say I went vegetarian, if someone was going to throw away half a hamburger they cut in two, I'd eat it.

How funny, I can SO relate to that. I am vegetarian 95% of the time with the odd bit of seafood (pescetarian), and I was vegan for a while too. I am exactly the same with regard to waste. When I used to eat everything, I was the family sweeper. I'd clean up everybody's plates. It drives me absolutely nuts to see a container of my wife's awesome homemade meatballs, cooked only for two of my kids who eat meat, sitting neglected in the fridge and destined for the trash.

Music is my main hobby, I've spent far more on synths and instruments than I ever will on brewing.

We have a few things in common. I have 40ish guitars. Money spent?? Brewing is cheap!

Don't want to derail the thread but it's a nice coincidence.

 

[madscientist451]

We have a few things in common. I have 40ish guitars. Money spent?? Brewing is cheap!
Don't want to derail the thread but it's a nice coincidence.

40 Guitars? Jeeze, I only have 15 guitars, 5 banjos, 4 Mandolins and 2 basses, I thought I was the mayor of the Buy Lots of Instruments crazy town.
(this guy has a crazy look)

 

[KookyBrewsky]

How funny, I can SO relate to that. I am vegetarian 95% of the time with the odd bit of seafood (pescetarian), and I was vegan for a while too. I am exactly the same with regard to waste. When I used to eat everything, I was the family sweeper. I'd clean up everybody's plates. It drives me absolutely nuts to see a container of my wife's awesome homemade meatballs, cooked only for two of my kids who eat meat, sitting neglected in the fridge and destined for the trash.



We have a few things in common. I have 40ish guitars. Money spent?? Brewing is cheap!

Don't want to derail the thread but it's a nice coincidence.

Nice, we seem quite relatable. I could've derailed it hard with one more post but I have to restrain myself, I can go on and on about music equipment but the virus has made me appreciate what I have, although a few new things to modernize my guitar setup arrived recently. My life consists of hobbies right now : music, beer, coffee, and video games. I've got the $3,900 Korg ARP 2600 on the way, next month I hope The synth that voiced R2D2 and scored 2001 : A Space Odyssey. I have 4 guitars, but I've used the same guitar for over 10 years, 99% of the time. A MIM Sunburst Fender Strat... I'd like an all black Fender Pro one day.

So far I've surmised from this thread : chest freezer is my next must have. A durable brew pot is my secondary must have. Any equipment for BIAB (which should be minimal) is my third must have, as I have settled on BIAB due to the gain in quality for a minimal amount of capital.

Let me clarify one time : the point of this thread is not "should I advance my setup by spending a ton of money?". I am going to advance it no matter the cost! The point of this thread was, if I don't do BIAB which basically costs nothing to setup beyond what I have, should I invest in a cheaper Igloo based all-grain setup for example, or immediately splurge for a sort of advanced system I might inevitably crave and waste the previous things I purchased? Chemistry was my favorite class in high school and I enjoyed the small amount I had in college, though I studied computer engineering. I have an interest in yeast and I will admit, the fancy machinery is so very sexy to me. This site made me go to a local brewery I had never even considered just passing by and it was a great experience. But I also need to be realistic.

I am interested in the minute details of brewing. I'd prefer to not haphazardly do something if I can do it accurately. That is my official thread statement. I've had one too many glasses of IPA from that brewery's growler tonight.

My second (used) chest freezer bit the dust, so lately I've been fermenting ales at ambient temps (my house is cold) and lagers down in the chilly basement (about 48F) and getting by with one chest freezer for the kegs.

I'm quite jealous. I'm also into powerlifting and mostly in shape, I don't consider it a hobby, it's just part of my routine that I haven't been able to do lately due to the virus. My point is, I overheat even though I'm not obese. I think the movie that had something similar was, Pineapple Express? I just overheat, I get hot. I would prefer to be in 0F weather and bundle up than 100F and I can't take my skin off. Yet I live in Florida. I have fantasized about moving to a colder, snowy region for probably a decade now. Not to mention making beer would be a bit easier as heating options are more accessible.


Note : The subtitles on the TV do not represent reality, just what I was seeing at the time...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Fast turnaround isn't about impatience. It's about limiting oxidation.

The early stages of oxidation are really harsh and require time (additional oxidation) to smooth over. With the right process you can avoid the oxidation and any fermentation-related off flavors altogether so the beer is excellent right from the start.

should I invest in a cheaper Igloo based all-grain setup for example, or immediately splurge for a sort of advanced system

These aren't mutually exclusive. You can build a highly advanced system using a cooler mash tun.

 

[madscientist451]

The point of this thread was, if I don't do BIAB which basically costs nothing to setup beyond what I have, should I invest in a cheaper Igloo based all-grain setup for example, or immediately splurge for a sort of advanced system I might inevitably crave and waste the previous things I purchased?

I started off doing all grain BIAB, thought the temperature swings were a hassle, so then went to a cooler set up doing manual re-circulation fly sparges and batch sparges and have now come back to a modified BIAB method that works for me.
I make wort as simply and as cheap as possible and put my money and energy into healthy fermentations and proper packaging. I'm a pretty picky drinker and choose my own cheaply made beer over many (but not all) pro brewer's offerings.

 

[jrgtr42]

40 Guitars? Jeeze, I only have 15 guitars, 5 banjos, 4 Mandolins and 2 basses, I thought I was the mayor of the Buy Lots of Instruments crazy town.
(this guy has a crazy look)

lol, Someone tell my wife that my 25-ish guitars isn't that bad - 15 electric, 4 bass, 2 good acoustic, 2 junker, plus a 12-string, and a lap steel. Not counting amps, drums, etc.

OP: Lots of people make perfectly good - possibly even commercial-level - beers with simple equipment.
Not saying that it's not easier, more consistant with an automated rig, but with good procedures, consistency isn't a problem with a cooler etc rig.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

lol, Someone tell my wife that my 25-ish guitars isn't that bad - 15 electric, 4 bass, 2 good acoustic, 2 junker, plus a 12-string, and a lap steel. Not counting amps, drums, etc.

OP: Lots of people make perfectly good - possibly even commercial-level - beers with simple equipment.
Not saying that it's not easier, more consistant with an automated rig, but with good procedures, consistency isn't a problem with a cooler etc rig.

Alright, my shopping list once I drink all the current beer I made (if it's any good) is a chest freezer with temp control, a 15 gallon brew pot suitable for 5 gallon grain batches, and BIAB mats. That setup is cheap enough to let me experiment wildly with my own recipes, without breaking bank. Seems like the best of both worlds, especially with a simple stir plate yeast starter which IMO is one of the larger in magnitude beer gains.

I've come to the conclusion I do not need high tech equipment unless I was making money from brewing. Which... I'd then go all in and get it as scientific as I possibly could. I'd sleep with Erlenmeyers. A man can dream. Seems like I'm all set!

 

[madscientist451]

Alright, my shopping list once I drink all the current beer I made (if it's any good) is a chest freezer with temp control, a 15 gallon brew pot suitable for 5 gallon grain batches, and BIAB mats.

IMO a 15 gallon pot is overkill. I use an 8 gallon pot for 5 gallon stovetop batches and a smaller, cheap pot to do "dunk sparges". Even my 8 gallon pot is a hassle to haul around and clean, it really doesn't fit in the sink. I have a 15 gallon keggle that I rarely use except if I'm making a massive barleywine and brewing outside. Its just too much of a hassle cleaning that thing. If you are brewing outside on a burner a 10 gallon pot will be sufficient.

 

[eric19312]

Here is the thing. You know you. In other hobbies you pursued that you really enjoyed did you jump immediately to end game equipment wise or was there a series of upgrades?

I wade in slowly and do end up upgrading over time. And always have some unused equipment laying around that ends up getting donated to new brewers or otherwise repurposed. But I'd never have gone from the bucket and bottles to my current set up in a single step. In wildest dreams I could not imagine going there after my first five batches.

My advice is to look at least one step beyond currently planned upgrade. I like your idea of a 15 gallon pot cause that will work great for 5 gallon BIAB but will also manage 10 gallon batches if you decide to step in that direction. I actually went from 5 to 10 to 15 to 22 in my boil kettle progression. All the kettles have found homes but could of saved a little coin if I'd skipped one or two of those steps along the way.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

Here is the thing. You know you. In other hobbies you pursued that you really enjoyed did you jump immediately to end game equipment wise or was there a series of upgrades?

I wade in slowly and do end up upgrading over time. And always have some unused equipment laying around that ends up getting donated to new brewers or otherwise repurposed. But I'd never have gone from the bucket and bottles to my current set up in a single step. In wildest dreams I could not imagine going there after my first five batches.

My advice is to look at least one step beyond currently planned upgrade. I like your idea of a 15 gallon pot cause that will work great for 5 gallon BIAB but will also manage 10 gallon batches if you decide to step in that direction. I actually went from 5 to 10 to 15 to 22 in my boil kettle progression. All the kettles have found homes but could of saved a little coin if I'd skipped one or two of those steps along the way.

Yes that’s true. Most hobbies I have found some middle ground where any further upgrades are both expensive and provide only a marginal increase in quality. That too will be my goal here. Plus, all the brew sites seem to have sales all the time, I haven’t paid full price for anything I don’t think. Even got a $35 extract kit recently for free because they accidentally shipped me two.

Lastly, I plan on 15 gallon because it provides room to expand my recipes, it might save me from purchasing too much equipment as you said, and I can brew any style of BIAB 5 gallon beers without fear of a boil over. Just my thoughts, some may disagree! Regardless, I’m going to splurge for a nice brew pot, one that’ll last me many, many brews without fault or say, the bottom becoming so concave it barely touches the stove outside the perimeter. I will however likely switch to an outdoors brew on a propane burner. My electric stove can’t handle a 15 gallon pot or any sized pot for making a 5 gallon BIAB batch.

I like the look of the Anvil setups but I’ll probably just get an Igloo based setup, tried and true.

 

[McKnuckle]

Don't know where you live, but brewing outside is not always fun or even possible. Just keep that in mind. I started with propane and 3 vessels. Satisfies the tough guy caveman instinct to brew with flame, sure, but try running out of gas mid-brew. Or getting stung by bees that won't stop dive-bombing your wort. Or frozen hoses in the winter. Screw that!

So I moved to induction years ago, then added an all-in-one system to augment my options. Electric and indoors, all the way!

 

[KookyBrewsky]

Don't know where you live, but brewing outside is not always fun or even possible. Just keep that in mind. I started with propane and 3 vessels. Satisfies the tough guy caveman instinct to brew with flame, sure, but try running out of gas mid-brew. Or getting stung by bees that won't stop dive-bombing your wort. Or frozen hoses in the winter. Screw that!

So I moved to induction years ago, then added an all-in-one system to augment my options. Electric and indoors, all the way!

I live in FL currently. Our stove is flat top electric and can barely bring 2.5 gallons of wort to a boil. It's simply not an option if I want to move onto BIAB. I'll use your bad experiences as a teacher and keep two things of propane on hand. We don't really worry about bees here, our backyard is 75% butterflies since I raised/hatch them and 25% various lizards that eat everything else. These new lizards are very obnoxious though that started popping up about a year ago. Apparently they hitched long rides underneath peoples cars from up north and started breeding down here. I've seen them as large as a foot+ in length, they look like huge bearded dragons.

An all-in-one would be great but they're expensive for a noob. The eControllers from say, Ss Brewtech are almost $1,000 alone. Any cheaper recommendations? I am not opposed to propane nor all-in-ones as our backyard as previously stated is relatively calm for brewing.

How about this, if you were me, what would you do? I'm not looking to spend $3,000 for an ultra-advanced setup, but I'd have no problem dropping $1,000 or so on something that'll last me for years to come and not worry about upgrading it in any sort of way.

My current bottleneck is our electric stove. I need a propane burner or an all-in-one just to do BIAB due to the increased wort volume.

 

[Gduck]

Or getting stung by bees that won't stop dive-bombing your wort. Or frozen hoses in the winter. Screw that!

So I moved to induction years ago, then added an all-in-one system to augment my options. Electric and indoors, all the way!

I get some yellow jackets that buzz around in the summer, but fortunately never had any give me real trouble (other than occasionally fishing one out of the wort). But the frozen hoses thing, ugh, yeah that sucks. Pretty much halted my brewing from December to February. Plus cleaning up when that wind is whipping and it’s below freezing sucks. Don’t have any kind of sink in my garage so I’m standing outside with the hose like an idiot. Last week put in my order for an Anvil Foundry, and I’ll be excited for when it finally ships!

 

[McKnuckle]

Kooky, "if I were you" I would probably get an Anvil Foundry with pump kit for $479 and a 220V line to run it. I would spend the rest of the dough on a keezer and a couple of kegs with all the required accouterments.

Alternately, you could DIY an 8-10 gallon kettle with a pickup tube, ball valve, and a made to fit Wilser bag. Couple that with an Avantco IC3500 (220V) induction cooktop and you're all set. Buy an Anvil pump later if you want to experiment with recirculation.

I'd get one extra keg to use as a fermenter, along with a floating dip tube and a spunding valve. Ferment 4.5 gallon batches in that bad boy, either under pressure, with spunding, or just a simple blow-off (all at my whim of course!).

Alternately, instead of fermenting in kegs, I really like the $130 Anvil stainless fermenter. It has everything you need and nothing you don't. Can you DIY a stainless fermenter with a sealing lid, airlock port, and a rotating spigot? Yes... but this one is easy to buy.

Hey, you asked. I know it's overwhelming and there are so many opinions to consider.

 

[eric19312]

good advice in here. Starting out many brewers focus most of their attention on making wort. Making beer actually involves three steps...making wort, fermenting the wort to get beer, and packaging that beer for consumption. For $1000 I can get you from beginner to advanced on one of those areas but not all three. And to me it is silly to be advanced on only one.

Here is what I'd do

Making Wort: single vessel BIAB on propane burner.

• Get a 15 gallon stainless steel kettle. Either get one with a spigot or add a spigot. Avoid one with a thermometer as it will be a PITA with the bag. You can find one that comes with a burner or buy the burner separately. Like you said get a spare tank.
• If you do your own spigot I like the weldless bulkheads @Bobby_M sells at BrewHardware.com and have used tons of his fittings over the years.
• Get a nice BIAB bag from @wilserbrewer and a pully system from him too.
• You are also going to want a decent chiller. Lots of cool choices there I wish I hadn't settled on a 50' copper IC when I did and spent the extra on a Jaded but this thing does get the job done.
• Pump is nice to have but I think you can add that later.

Fermenting Beer

• Fermentor - those Anvil brew buckets look like a decent deal and will last. You can also go with plastic carboys, plastic conicals, spiedel tanks. Lots of good options. On your budget not looking at steel conicals or unitanks. I believe fermenting in kegs is good choice too lots of people that try it never look back. I'd lean in direction of something that can handle at least a couple PSI of pressure to enable pressure transfers to kegs. I do think you will want at least 2 so even Anvil will take a bite out of your budget.
• Fermentation temperature control. A used fridge or chest freezer might be close to free and a $25 Inkbird dual stage temperature controller. Cheap heat source.
• Yeast management - nice to have stir plate and flask set. Up to you I am happy with dry yeast.
• Oxygen - nice to have lots don't bother but I like mine.

Packaging and Serving

• If you like the process you will like it more and probably stick with it much longer if you get into kegging.
• Chest freezer with collar or score a used fridge and build kegerator
• Regulator
• Kegs
• CO2 bottle
• Lines/Shanks/manifold

One last thought - of these three areas, I believe the quality of the beer you make will be impacted most by the fermenting process, then by the quality of your packaging process, and lastly by the quality of your wort production process. Making wort is a lot of fun and feels the most like brewing but IMO is just not as important contributor to quality of the final product as fermenting and packaging.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

If I got any of the all-in-one grain brewing kits, I'd likely just spend part of the $1,000 on a Grainfather but try and get it during a sale on a brewing site, say 10-15% off which isn't uncommon, leaving me $150 for the freezer and I'd need just a bit extra for the temp control and a recipe or two... I think fermenting in the plastic buckets is fine because the yeast basically solidifies on the bottom after three weeks and I've had no issues with them.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[McKnuckle]

I believe the quality of the beer you make will be impacted most by the fermenting process, then by the quality of your packaging process, and lastly by the quality of your wort production process. Making wort is a lot of fun and feels the most like brewing but IMO is just not as important contributor to quality of the final product as fermenting and packaging.

Brother Eric preaches TRUTH! Heed every word of this, grasshopper!

 

[Kharnynb]

A grainfather, or one of those customised cheaper "tea urn" biab systems are def. a good start and will keep you brewing for a long time.

I use a Bulldog brewer, which has served me well.

 

[KookyBrewsky]

A grainfather, or one of those customised cheaper "tea urn" biab systems are def. a good start and will keep you brewing for a long time.

I use a Bulldog brewer, which has served me well.

Bulldog looks pretty nice, they look similar. Prefer to support smaller companies if possible but Bulldog looks to be more of a UK product whereas the Grainfather is readily available here in the US.

I think a a big purpose of this thread has been just talking things out, saying foolish stuff and getting over it and then move on to the reasonable and more intelligent decisions... Like trying to get a Grainfather, chest freezer and temp controls for $1,000 or less

If I went with @eric19312 's advice, it'd probably end up costing a bit less with a more intricate knowledge of the equipment, although the Grainfather connectivity would be lost. It'd use no electricity save for the chest freezer, but if the lights ever go out I could resort back to my shoddy storage tub and a wet towel by using that propane setup...

Though getting a nice 15 gallon brew pot is a large chunk already with the false bottom. Even Igloo setups are not cheap. I do not want a crummy brew pot, that's one of my main desires from all of this. My brew pot was only enjoyable to use for 2 brews, then became a hassle, although it's ultra cheap and from a starter kit. You simply don't know certain things until you dip your toes in, no matter how much you read online.

Regarding kegging... Ignorance is bliss so far. I have no qualms with bottling, it's zen like for me, no real hassle since it's done so infrequently. I fill 4, cap 4, fill 4, cap 4, all my bottles are sanitized and drying before I start on that plastic rack thing. I've read most people that keg don't come back from it. Clean up is still as much of a hassle as on brew day with bottling though, but not bad.

 

[Bassman2003]

A lot of ways to go here. Grainfather's are solid. If cost is an issue then I would look at the Anvil foundry or the Mash & Boil. I went with a wine fridge instead of a chest freezer to save my back (it is elevated so easy to lift in and simple drain out) and to have internal temp controls. I agree with Eric on fermentation being the most important. Good luck in your search.