Instant chill method

[electricsailor]

I got a better way. I must be an eletrrical genius. I take the electrical plug from my microwave, unplug it, turn the plug around. Now the electricity is flowing the other direction. My micro wave now makes the wort cold.

 

[Bobby_M]

I like this suggestion. I suppose someone could take a one gallon container, fill it with RO, put it in the freezer, and then drop the ice in the bucket or kettle. There's no reason it can't scale.

I would challenge the assumption that the bagged ice is less sanitary. That's speculation.

You don't want the chunks of ice too be too large or they won't melt fast enough to chill down quickly.

I'll say it another way. I KNOW that my ice is quite sanitary but you don't KNOW that commercially bagged ice is sanitary. You have no idea what the facility looks like. You can't be sure there are no holes in the bag, etc. I'm not trying to convince you to stop doing anything.

 

[khannon]

You don't want the chunks of ice too be too large or they won't melt fast enough to chill down quickly.

I'll say it another way. I KNOW that my ice is quite sanitary but you don't KNOW that commercially bagged ice is sanitary. You have no idea what the facility looks like. You can't be sure there are no holes in the bag, etc. I'm not trying to convince you to stop doing anything.

Bobby, would that be ice-holes in the bag?

 

[ajsboarder]

I'm not at all shocked that someone else did this first. There's a lot of smart people out there. Just sharing my experience. Nice to hear it worked well for you and your friend.

Sorry, didn’t mean to come across as saying someone else did it first, just qualifying my experience with it as well.

 

[Barley_Bob]

You don't want the chunks of ice too be too large or they won't melt fast enough to chill down quickly.

I'll say it another way. I KNOW that my ice is quite sanitary but you don't KNOW that commercially bagged ice is sanitary. You have no idea what the facility looks like. You can't be sure there are no holes in the bag, etc. I'm not trying to convince you to stop doing anything.

You're right. My broader point on the subject is just that we also don't know what kind of condition the water from the store is in, but we accept that it's 100% problem free without question. We don't know what that facility (or the total supply chain) look like either.

I do think/believe/suspect that the bagged ice is less sanitary than bottled water or RO out of the filter at the grocery store. However, I also think that the actual difference is very small and that if there is a statistically significant difference, it's not enough to impact the brewing process. A significant difference does not mean it changes the result.

Many of the practices that we've adopted as safe and normal are simply dogma. For the homebrewer, perfection is not the elimination of all risk - it's achieving a desirable result.

My anecdotal evidence through a dozen or so batches is that it's not causing infections. It is accelerating my brew day tremendously at a very very low cost. The cost of a really nice wort chiller will never be as low as bagged ice, even over many batches. Thus, I view this as a legitimate practice that should be shared.

EDIT: Sorry - To your first point, one of the great things about the bagged ice is the high surface area. It makes it super fast. But if someone wanted a safer option and cared less about a good cold break, then a clean block of ice would be a good option. I appreciate you bringing it up.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Sorry, didn’t mean to come across as saying someone else did it first, just qualifying my experience with it as well.

Oh, you're all good. I knew I wouldn't be the only person doing this. I'm glad you chimed in!

 

[Barley_Bob]

Bobby, would that be ice-holes in the bag?

Sure. If my batches come out infection free, does it matter?

 

[khannon]

Sure. If my batches come out infection free, does it matter?

Chill however you like, it's your beer. This method seems fine to me as long as the ice is clean. I was more referencing the movie Johnny Dangerously, but only doing so "Once".

 

[BQ&W]

"Once!"

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

You're right. My broader point on the subject is just that we also don't know what kind of condition the water from the store is in, but we accept that it's 100% problem free without question. We don't know what that facility (or the total supply chain) look like either.

I do think/believe/suspect that the bagged ice is less sanitary than bottled water or RO out of the filter at the grocery store. However, I also think that the actual difference is very small and that if there is a statistically significant difference, it's not enough to impact the brewing process. A significant difference does not mean it changes the result.

Many of the practices that we've adopted as safe and normal are simply dogma. For the homebrewer, perfection is not the elimination of all risk - it's achieving a desirable result.

My anecdotal evidence through a dozen or so batches is that it's not causing infections. It is accelerating my brew day tremendously at a very very low cost. The cost of a really nice wort chiller will never be as low as bagged ice, even over many batches. Thus, I view this as a legitimate practice that should be shared.

EDIT: Sorry - To your first point, one of the great things about the bagged ice is the high surface area. It makes it super fast. But if someone wanted a safer option and cared less about a good cold break, then a clean block of ice would be a good option. I appreciate you bringing it up.

You make some good points regarding the dogma aspects that creep into our beliefs. For me personally, I just don’t like the idea of concentrating the wort purposely and then diluting it. Especially when brewing all grain. Wort concentration changes the beer. Concentrating the wort changes hop utilization rates, changes mallaird reaction effects (especially important if trying to brew a light colored beer). and probably some other things I’m forgetting. I’m sure you could compensate for some, or all of these things, but why add another step?

But that‘s just me. You do you.

 

[Bramling Cross]

For what it's worth (nothing, if I'm quite honest) I've read this thread many times since the early 90's. While I've never used the technique myself, it certainly seems to work. People have been using it for decades with great results and I'd be happy to share one of Bob's pints.

If it ain't broke...





....you haven't started messing around with water chemistry yet.

 

[Cool_Hand_Luke]

I'll preface this by saying that I probably wouldn't do this myself mainly as I don't have a set up that would benefit from it, but it is possible that this technique is actually relatively low infection risk. RO water itself is not a particularly favorable environment for biological growth, and ice made with RO would arguably be even less favorable. There is a certainly an 'ick' factor with potential holes in the bag of ice and whatever unknowns at the factory or transport to the ice freezers that probably never get cleaned at the store. But if we put that aside and look at the situation the OP is putting the ice in, the risk may be quite low. Thought process:

1. Frozen RO water should be relatively free of microbes in the internal portion of the ice.
2. There is a risk of surface contamination on the ice. However if the following is true:
   1. If ice is kept frozen up until the point of putting in a fermenter
   2. Wort is immediately dumped into the fermenter (not glass)
   3. There is not an extreme excess of ice

...Then the wort itself should pasteurize the exterior of the ice as it absorbs the heat from the wort. It takes 0.05 seconds at 204F to pasteurize, 0.1 seconds at 201F, and 1.0 seconds at 191F.​

​

It at least seems feasible and combined with @Barley_Bob 's practical experience with it definitely shouldn't be dismissed outright. @Barley_Bob, It might be interesting to know how quick the temperature drops if you held a sanitized thermometer in the wort and stirred with a sanitized spoon.

 

[Islandbrew212]

I work for a brewery (cellarman/ assistant brewer) and when I do homebrew on my days off I want to do it the easiest way possible. I too do a concetrated wort and cool with bagged ice to save time. The brewmaster approves (the chance of infection or off taste is negligible)

 

[ATLBeer]

I used ice on extract brews too, made brew day a lot easier.

Like the OP, many batches, no infections. The empirical evidence is that is safe an effective for extract brewing.

And of course no one uses a dirty bag of ice with holes. Just like any other ingredient, you inspect the packaging before buying it. That is a silly argument.

 

[50calshooter]

I could never bring myself to do that. I would be concerned with contaminating my wort with the ice and/or manipulating the end results flavor or ABV. Whats so bad about the copper coil? I used one for 12 years. Chilled 10 gallon batches in 45 minutes. I pumped ice water through it. Now days I use a chill plate. Chills 10 gallons in 25-30 minutes. A bit pricey but worth it for me.

 

[Jim R]

Whats so bad about the copper coil?

I agree. It takes me 22 min to chill my 5 gal batches with a copper coil, a cooler, a cheap pond pump and the same ice you are throwing into your wort, all of which I can set up during my boil time. Why would I cut corners to save about 10 minutes?

 

[Barley_Bob]

Time and cost. The chiller will never be as cheap as bags of ice, even over many batches. And while 22 minutes isn't a long cool time, there still is setup, sanitation, and storage to account for.

I hesitate to recommend this practice to some specific group. I think anyone can do this and benefit, and I'm glad to hear it's worked for others. I will say, that I think there's tremendous value for the new brewer who hasn't invested in a lot of gear (for whatever reason).

Also - There are a ton of threads out there where guys say they've started brewing to save money on beer. In all of those threads, members jump in to say it's not true and that they'll ultimately wind up spending more. There's no reason for that to be the case. Homebrew costs me $0.25 to $0.75 per bottle. One important way I accomplish that is by not splurging on equipment like a nice chiller.

I brew like once a month. Sometimes more. Someone brewing several times a month could reasonably make up the cost of a chiller (and other equipment). The casual brewer won't.

 

[Pkrd]

Time and cost. The chiller will never be as cheap as bags of ice, even over many batches.

Time: I don't need to drive to the store to make beer.
Cost: Realistically, what are the chances of getting out of the store without a pile of soda and doritos too?

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

Time: I don't need to drive to the store to make beer.
Cost: Realistically, what are the chances of getting out of the store without a pile of soda and doritos too?

I haven’t bought Doritos or anything like them in 20+ years

 

[Pkrd]

I haven’t bought Doritos or anything like them in 20+ years

How long have you had a wort chiller for?

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

5 years

 

[Barley_Bob]

Time: I don't need to drive to the store to make beer.
Cost: Realistically, what are the chances of getting out of the store without a pile of soda and doritos too?

Most people go to the store regularly (whether that's for soda and Doritos or for something else). If you don't go to the grocery store, this process isn't for you.

If you forget to go to the store and you don't have a chiller or a bag of ice, you can cover your wort (in the kettle or fermenter) and let it naturally cool overnight (outside or in another cool place). This works better in winter. Or you can do what @Bobby_M suggested and make your own block of sanitary ice.

Bottom line - you don't need a chiller at all. And a fermenter full of ice is a crazy fast way to get your wort to pitching temp.

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

If I’m ever desperate to save 15-20 minutes, maybe I’ll give it a whirl.

 

[50calshooter]

You only buy the chiller once and it doesn't have to be copper. Stainless works too.