Infected beer - What to do with my equipment

[arringtonbp]

I had an infected batch of beer. I plan on brewing another batch. Do I need to use new bottles, or is there a way to clean the infected ones?

Also, will ammonia OR bleach kill the bacteria in my plastic fermenters?

 

[insubordinateK]

Clean with PBW or oxyclean, then santize with your favorite sanitizer. Let it sit.

Don't use bleach, ammonia in your fermenters. Keep it food-grade.

 

[daksin]

Bleach is fine, and often recommended for infections. It's a great bug killer (use a 10%-15% solution), but you've got to give it a serious rinsing before using again. Buckets are so cheap many people throw them out if they've got infection problems, especially because the tiniest scratch can hide bugs from your bleach or sanitizer.

If the bottles are glass though, they're totally reusable. A good scrubbing with your favorite cleaner or an overnight soak in hot oxyclean, and the normal soak in sanitizer is fine.

Skip the ammonia, though.

 

[insubordinateK]

Bleach is fine, and often recommended for infections.

I would prefer to keep it food-grade. My 2 cents. Not only is bleach extremely toxic to humans, it is a very strong oxidizer. Neither one is good for home brew.

 

[arringtonbp]

Rather than using PBW or oxyclean, is it alright to use one-step followed by star san?

 

[insubordinateK]

Rather than using PBW or oxyclean, is it alright to use one-step followed by star san?

yes, it is the same stuff pretty much chemically.

 

[insubordinateK]

And I love star san. Good stuff.

 

[daksin]

People use bleach all the time, btw. Up until star-san hit it big with home brewers, bleach was just about the only sanitizer anybody used, on bottles, buckets, and everything else.

A 10% solution and then rinsed thoroughly isn't going to hurt anyone.

 

[insubordinateK]

People use bleach all the time....A 10% solution and then rinsed thoroughly isn't going to hurt anyone.

Makes perfect sense when I can just use Star San.

 

[arringtonbp]

Just as an update, I tasted this beer and it tastes pretty nice currently. It's only been conditioning for a few days, so it's not ready. When I poured it it had a 2 finger head and was pretty clear (not crystal clear but almost). Other than a slight bitterness and a flat taste, there were no off-tastes to this beer.

 

[arnoldk2]

I soak my equipment in PBW the night before a brew day. On brew day I rinse all my equipment with hot water 3 or 4 times to make sure all the PBW has been washed off and then I soak my equipment with Iodopher. I've never had an infection. PBW vs Oxyclean depends on the person. There are multiple threads arguing which is better. My preference is PBW. I've used oxyclean for many years and in my opinion PBW does a better job with cleaning. If you're thinking about getting new equipment because of an infection let me know. I'll give you my address to send me your equipment, I'll even pay the postage. :fro:

 

[daksin]

Makes perfect sense when I can just use Star San.

Star san is a sanitizer, designed to minimize the number of harmful contaminants in food equipment. Anything that comes out of a good soak of 10% bleach is sterile. Do you want to kill most of the bacteria in this bucket, or all of them?

 

[rycov]

i'd say anything glass or metal needs sanitizing. anything plastic can be replaced. all the plastic stuff is pretty cheep anyway.

 

[Brew_4iT]

I would prefer to keep it food-grade. My 2 cents. Not only is bleach extremely toxic to humans, it is a very strong oxidizer. Neither one is good for home brew.

That's all dependent on the concentration of the solution. Actually I was watching one of those man vs. wild shows and if you add a small part of bleach to unsanitary water (forget the ratio) it will kill the bacteria but be safe for human consumption. If you thoroughly rinse your vessels after using bleach (you really don't need much mixed with water) their is no reason for any health risks or off tastes. Granted if you use more than the recommended ratio (which many people do) you may need to rinse multiple times over. To put it into perspective approximately 1/4 tsp.(not tablespoon) bleach to 1 qt. water will be adequate for sanitizing counter tops and dinner tables.

 

[StophJS]

I've actually got an infection in the bottle right now, so I'm wondering about this myself. Would it be ok to use iodophor to sanitize and reuse these bottles?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Don't use bleach, ammonia in your fermenters. Keep it food-grade.

Wrong.

I would prefer to keep it food-grade. My 2 cents. Not only is bleach extremely toxic to humans, it is a very strong oxidizer. Neither one is good for home brew.

Yes. Bleach IS toxic to humans. At levels above a certain threshold.

So is Palmolive Dish soap, StarSan, PBW, etc.

IK and OP,

Seek out the Charley Talley basic brewing podcast with Five Star Chemicals and learn from it the advantages of "Acidulated Bleach".

Or, just clean everything really well with a non scratch pad to remove buildups, check for scratches in the wall and bottom (buckets have also been known to develop hairline cracks at the bond between sidewall and bottom), and then soak in your favorite sanitizing solution. And yes, Acidulated Bleach is a Food Safe sanitizer IF mixed to the proper PPM.

 

[insubordinateK]

Brew -

I totally agree with you.

Gila -

Calling me out, uh? Just kidding....and I agree with you as well. Salt has an LD50 higher than some pesticides. However I never had to resort to using bleach so I'm skiddish. I clean everything really well, then sanitize (thanks daksin for educating me on the difference between sanitize and sterilize, I feel whole now) - which is what I originally suggested. It works for me.

Why do people buy organic food? It's not that the pesticides used are present at dangerous levels; it's just a feeling of purity or some sh#t like that. Get me? I think organic is purely a marketing scam, btw.

So my point is, yes, you can use a diluted bleach solution and it is VERY effective for microbial contamination. But I have never experienced a situation where that was necessary. And if I did, I would probably use ethanol or isopropyl alcohol since these chemicals would be equally effective and volatile. Soaking would not be necessary so a large volume would not be needed.

So let the OP use bleach, but 10%? Palmer recommends 0.4 % solution if you're going to do it. Just a heads up.

 

[Brew_4iT]

Why do people buy organic food? It's not that the pesticides used are present at dangerous levels; it's just a feeling of purity or some sh#t like that. Get me? I think organic is purely a marketing scam, btw.

Kind of off topic.. but sense we're talking about organic foods. It's not just the fact that pesticides are used, it is more so the fact that foods in our market places are mainly genetically modified. Even foods labeled "All Natural" doesn't mean they are GMO (genetically modified organisms) free unless stated on the product.

Monsanto made it it's business to take every seed from grains to tomatoes over the course of the last few decades and change the dna structures so that they are resilient to infections, higher yields, etc. Not only that but these hybrid strains contaminate natural organic crops and then these poor farmers have a lawsuit against them, now Monsanto's seeds are set to control the whole agriculture industry. See Monsanto has diligently over the years put patents on it's "product" (which is now life itself scary right?) and sense many of the same CEO's, stock holders, etc. also influence the FDA and pharmaceutical industry...

What is even more scary is that their is only one government that holds a patent on the "suicide seed". Crops engineered to grow for one year and no further seeds are made, leaving farmers to have to buy more of these seeds for the next years harvest, you can imagine the amount of money made off of a seed like that.. and that is the US government.

But I digress... used to care a lot more myself but I don't have the money to buy organic either.

 

[insubordinateK]

Kind of off topic.. but sense we're talking about organic foods. It's not just the fact that pesticides are used, it is more so the fact that foods in our market places are mainly genetically modified. Even foods labeled "All Natural" doesn't mean they are GMO (genetically modified organisms) free unless stated on the product.

Brew -

Ten thousand years ago, when Indians were selecting the best corn for re-seeding the next year - they were "genetically modifying" the plant. Yes, selecting the best plants - using certain mutations over other genetic mutations.

If we didn't select the strongest, most robust food, we couldn't feed the people we feed today. Don't let those words scare you. It's a necessity and poor countries in Africa are letting people starve when we have the technology to feed them.

Whether or not this technology is controlled by one company is a different matter. But genetically modifying food is sound science and makes sense.

 

[Brew_4iT]

Brew -

Ten thousand years ago, when Indians were selecting the best corn for re-seeding the next year - they were "genetically modifying" the plant. Yes, selecting the best plants - using certain mutations over other genetic mutations.

If we didn't select the strongest, most robust food, we couldn't feed the people we feed today. Don't let those words scare you. It's a necessity and poor countries in Africa are letting people starve when we have the technology to feed them.

Whether or not this technology is controlled by one company is a different matter. But genetically modifying food is sound science and makes sense.

LOL not even close... Genetically modifying is not synonymous with natural selection and adaptation.

What you are talking about is why genetically modifying food is so wrong. You just have it backwards a little bit...

As with your analogy the same thing with potatoes. The indigenous people had a vast variety of potatoes that grew at different altitudes as well as having different characteristics. If one infection, drought, etc. affected one variety several others naturally would be able to thrive and feed the community.

However nothing was learned after the Irish famine... they selected one potatoe and cultivated it for a vast populace.

What is going on here is instead of nature naturally "mutating" cells you have scientists splicing and injecting into damaged cells pesticides and other attributes 'playing god'. Instead of a wealth of farmers with seeds carried over through generations from all over the planet Monsanto is contaminating these seeds putting local farmers out of business so that one singular seed of corn, tomato, etc. will feed the masses.

It's already been shown that insects have adapted to 'round up ready' a pesticide under Monsanto (Look it up you'll have a blast). However these plants wont have the luxury for natural adaptation to combat the insects... Think about it... Do I need to use parenthetical citations and references for this stuff? I mean look it up it is all their.

You really should watch the movie "A Beautiful Truth".

 

[copyright1997]

That's all dependent on the concentration of the solution. Actually I was watching one of those man vs. wild shows and if you add a small part of bleach to unsanitary water (forget the ratio) it will kill the bacteria but be safe for human consumption. If you thoroughly rinse your vessels after using bleach (you really don't need much mixed with water) their is no reason for any health risks or off tastes. Granted if you use more than the recommended ratio (which many people do) you may need to rinse multiple times over. To put it into perspective approximately 1/4 tsp.(not tablespoon) bleach to 1 qt. water will be adequate for sanitizing counter tops and dinner tables.

This is essentially what is recommended as part of a long term survival/after the s__t hits the fan plan as a way of treating water. However, some issues with liquid bleach are:
1) Need to make sure it is unscented and with no other additives.
2) It will degrade (become less effective) over time so is not usable for long term storage.

 

[insubordinateK]

LOL not even close... Genetically modifying is not synonymous with natural selection and adaptation.

What you are talking about is why genetically modifying food is so wrong. You just have it backwards a little bit...

As with your analogy the same thing with potatoes. The indigenous people had a vast variety of potatoes that grew at different altitudes as well as having different characteristics. If one infection, drought, etc. affected one variety several others naturally would be able to thrive and feed the community.

However nothing was learned after the Irish famine... they selected one potatoe and cultivated it for a vast populace.

What is going on here is instead of nature naturally "mutating" cells you have scientists splicing and injecting into damaged cells pesticides and other attributes 'playing god'. Instead of a wealth of farmers with seeds carried over through generations from all over the planet Monsanto is contaminating these seeds putting local farmers out of business so that one singular seed of corn, tomato, etc. will feed the masses.

It's already been shown that insects have adapted to 'round up ready' a pesticide under Monsanto (Look it up you'll have a blast). However these plants wont have the luxury for natural adaptation to combat the insects... Think about it... Do I need to use parenthetical citations and references for this stuff? I mean look it up it is all their.

You really should watch the movie "A Beautiful Truth".

I don't watch movies to get my scientific information. I read the scientific literature to get my scientific information.

Show me one study that demonstrates the genetically modified hops used in your beer or the genetically modified grain used in your beer has any negative effect on you or society. I'll gladly show you dozens of studies that suggest differently.

You consume genetically modified food every day. Show a little sense to that fact.

 

[Brew_4iT]

....

Yeah cause documentaries are all full of crap.... I dunno I guess you just strike me as the type of guy who gets most their information from news and other biased sources so a video from well known scientists, doctors, and other prolific individuals might stimulate your senses.

But you can enlighten me on the literature you've read

I wasn't explicitly talking about beer grains and hops... Corporations like Monsanto wouldn't waste their time on such a small sample of the agriculture industry.

Well I was going to head out and get some painting done at the house I'm moving into but now you've made it my personal pleasure to enlighten you.

 

[insubordinateK]

Well I was going to head out and get some painting done at the house I'm moving into but now you've made it my personal pleasure to enlighten you.

Go paint. I'm going to enjoy some lovely home brew crafted with a variety of hops that were "unnaturally" genetically modified to give me all the flowery, citrusy delight I could want.

 

[Brew_4iT]

Just to make sure, you do know that 'genetically modified' doesn't mean cross pollination of strains of hops and grains to create hybrids of particular attributes?


Here's some quick links

The "King of Beer" Comes Out Against Genetically Engineered Rice

Dangers of Genetically Modified Foods (halfway down the page more info)

Doesn't take much to put two and two together, I dunno but for me I would rather use hops cultivated over generations and cross pollinated rather than genetically messed around with.

When I get back I'll do some more research on the subject because I wasn't even aware that this was starting to happen to beer grains and hops. So I'm actually more intrigued if you have some good references for books on the subject let me know.

 

[petey_c]

Well to get back on track of the OP... I've read several times here about bacteria "hiding" in little scratches. If you use the proper ratio of "bug killer" (Star san, bleach, et al), wouldn't that kill the little buggers? I keep getting this image of bacteria akin to WWII Japanese vets hiding out in some cave, because they didn't know the war was over...

 

[insubordinateK]

Just to make sure, you do know that 'genetically modified' doesn't mean cross pollination of strains of hops and grains to create hybrids of particular attributes?

What do you think is the cause of those attributes? Let's say it together "Genes!"

What are you doing to get the attributes.
"You modify the Genes!"

We will pick it up when you get back...

 

[lou2row]

New waterlines are typically sanitized / sterilized with a superchlorinated water. 50 mg/L concentration. Fill the waterline, and let it cook for 24 hours. I run the bacteria tests when the line is finished and the chlorinated water is flushed down to normal chlorine levels. To let you know how weak you can go and still have "superchlorinated" water, 30mls of regular bleach in a gallon of water will be about 400 mg/L (parts per million). That is what we use in a spray bottle to disinfect faucets and spigots before sampling.

Another tip if using your home water to brew: Remove your aerator from your tap. That is the quickest way to get a bad sample when collecting bacteria samples.

 

[arringtonbp]

SO, back to my topic. Oxyclean, followed by rinse, followed by 6 gallons water/1 cup bleach solution followed by rinsing heavily should do the trick?

 

[lou2row]

sure.