Induction Brewing - 2.5g with Recirculation

[sumbrewindude]

Great to hear 14thST. I'm really leaning toward the Avanto unit, just because it'll let me put an extra hundred to an 8gal Megapot. Finding a tall/narrow based 6-8gal induction capable pot is a real pain in the kiester, let me tell you. Since I mash in a 5gal cooler anyway, I'm not overly concerned with holding temps like the BIAB guys/gals are.

Thinking that I could use my IC as a makeshift HERMS eventually if I need to step-mash anything.

 

[sammy33]

Gearing up for another test. The Reflectix material was not quite big enough to wrap the kettle. I cut off a good 7" or so from the top so I have some left over to make a patch. Couldn't find my duct tape so SWMBO is picking up some for me. Will finish the patch when she gets home and then fire the system up for some more testing.

 

[sammy33]

Ok...the reflectix is a champ! Here are the results of the requested 4.5 gallon test just for sumbrewindude and Lindsersnuff.

Started with 4.5g of 61F tap water. Took about 43 minutes to get to 165F mash in temps. Note this was with the lid on.

Another 19 minutes to get to a nice boil. Total time was just over an hour from 61F to boil. Not stellar heating times but workable for that volume. Another thing I noticed is the boil was rocking when I removed the lid but would slow down after minute or so. With the lid partial on it would maintain a nice rolling boil.

I am out of homebrew right now. My Kristalweizen I recently brewed is still conditioning so I popped an Oskar Blues Mama's Little Yella Pils for the test...gotta do whatcha gotta do.

PS: I dusted off the nice camera for these pics in preparation for the March '14 Photo contest. Click the linky below in my sig for more information if you are interested.

 

[sumbrewindude]

You da man, Sammy.

So it looks like it can boil 4.5gal with a modded cover (or one that's half off). I'd feel confident with a 3gal brew with that setup. I have no idea how guys are doing 5+ gal with them, though - and I'm really glad you didn't try to boil 5gal in that pot. You'd have a wet counter for sure.

Man, do I go with the 1800 or the 3500. Argh...

 

[sammy33]

Good question. You do small batches and I see you on the big 1 gallon thread quite a bit. It seems you are looking to get some larger batches in your pipeline however. I would have gone with the 3500 watt induction but not certain it was required for me maxing out at 2.5g batches nor do I have a readily available place to plug one in. I love the control of temps the 1800 watt Cadet offers and that was way out of my price range on a 3500 watt unit.

If I was going to do 5g batches I would really be looking at a 3500 watt bad boy like the Avantco IC3500. That would certainly get you the rockin' boil! Do you have access to a 240v outlet? Are you willing to install one or have one installed? That is my limitation. The quote I got was $290 from a local electrician to get one installed or unplug the dryer. Sure SWMBO would love that. :rockin:

 

[Lupulinds]

Thanks for conducting the test, sammy33! Based on your results, I think I'll end up going with the Cadet for my 3-gallon batches.

 

[wobdee]

How much did you have to keep the lid on to maintain a good boil? I had to leave mine on about 3/4 with my 1800w Burton and I worried about possible DMS not being boiled off. No more worries with my 3500w burner for my 3 gal batches.

 

[sammy33]

wobdee - for the first test I did the lid was not required. That was a 3.5g boil with no lid and no insulation.

For the 4.5g test boil I had insulation and the lid on about 3/4. It would boil with the lid off but was just a shimmering boil.

I also noticed the unit was cycling with the insulation. With the lid off, it would crank for a couple minutes and I would see a good boil and then it would slow down to a shimmer for a couple minutes. It cycled like that the whole time I was testing the boil. I am guessing this is the logic in the unit using only the required power. The top of the unit was HOT! This might be from the insulation extending all the way down to the base of the induction unit. Perhaps if I shortened the insulation to expose an inch or so of the pot at the bottom would keep the thermal sensing from cycling?

 

[wobdee]

I just wonder if it will be enough, I'm currently brewing a 3gl Pilsner (BIAB) and I started with 5 gal of strike water. I guess you could always hold some back and top off later to get a better boil.

 

[sammy33]

Not certain what the boil off rate is on this new setup? I am basing my tests on what I got on my stove which was about a half gallon an hour. I guess this setup may boil off a bit more so hence the 3.5g test. Assuming that I get about a gallon an hour that yields at least 2.5g into the fermentor.

I guess I need to fire it all up again to dial it in before I brew on it. I need to calibrate a new dip stick for the new pot anyway. Make a new equipment profile for Beersmith and probably some other things I haven't thought of yet.

First brew on this system will probably be Wednesday or Thursday night this week and probably again next weekend. I am thinking a Maibock since I can lager now. Then maybe an ESB or English Mild next weekend.

 

[sumbrewindude]

Can't beat those choices, Sammy.

I've got a couple I want to try (and I agreed to try and make a Lithuanian Kepinis from here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/beer-connoisseur-article-traditional-lithuanian-brewing-no-boil-hop-tea-368766/ ) but I'm definitely going to do a table beer series based on English milds coming up.

The more I think about it, I think I'm going to go 3500W. You can always turn the power down, but turning it up past "11" isn't as easy.

Just hoping that I can still do my small batches with it, but I've got more people asking for "samples" now, so I'm hoping 3gal will cover it.

 

[14thstreet]

sumbrewindude, please keep us posted about the table beer series. I've brewed a couple English milds and I'm still not sure where I stand with them. The last I brewed was JW Lees Best Mild. Have it "on cask" for the last month or so and the flavors have already dropped out somewhat. Had a wonderful nose to it early on. I made the invert and caramel coloring myself.

 

[AnOldUR]

The more I think about it, I think I'm going to go 3500W. You can always turn the power down, but turning it up past "11" isn't as easy.

You won't regret it. The only reason to not "go big" is problems with having or getting 240V to your brewing area.

Although some of the better 120 and 240V models have a higher degree of precision if you plan to mash with it.

 

[sumbrewindude]

14thST - Can do. Love that blog (Shut up about Barclay Perkins), and it's honestly one of the main reasons that I want to start developing a few session/table beers. As much as I love a good, balanced high ABV beer I'd just as soon take a couple milds or session beers that I can enjoy at dinner or just infront of the tube. If you haven't already found the index for the Let's Brew Wed's here it is: http://www.unholymess.com/blog/lets-brew .

How are you doing your cask conditioning? Last time I did it in the bottles, but man would I like to eventually get a pin from Northern Brewer. I wonder if there's a way to turn a cornie into a pin...

AnOldUR - nope, no plans to mash - that'll be in the cooler. I'm happy with the cooler thing for now, though I could see eventually working in a HERMS setup for stepmashing, maybe once I got a pump to play around with.

 

[sammy33]

I was thinking the English Mild would be a good excuse/reason to get some kegs going. Would love to have a mild on tap with just enough carbonation to make it relatively authentic.

I will probably do the Maibock first since it will take some to time to lager. Should be ready by May if I start now. I also want to try some step mashing and triple decoction with my new system. That is one of the reasons I got the Cadet. I really likes me some pilsners and lagers. I have the fermentation temp control now so nothing really holding me back. Come to think of it lagers would do well with a kegerator.

SBD - I saw where you posted the sale on the 3g used kegs at AIH. Those are a great deal!

 

[dattac]

Welcome to HBT dattac!

What are the dimensions on that kettle from Bru Gear? Didn't see it posted on the site. Love how they are promoting induction brewing!

Thanks!

I'm not sure of the exact dimensions of the 10g kettle, but he did post the dims of the 15 and 20 here, so I'm assuming (with the same height = 1.2 x diameter) that it would be 13.8" diameter and 16.5" height... or at least around that.

The utility sink was pretty easy to get SWMBO to agree to. "Hey honey...would you like a sink in the brewery I mean in the laundry area?"

I'm going with the same logic. When it was "just" a laundry sink, it was too expensive (need a pump to get it up to the sewer line), but now that it's dual purpose, it is well within reason

 

[sammy33]

New BIAB dip stick marked and calibrated for the 5.5g kettle. Oak dowel (5/8" x 18") with the marks burned in with my soldering iron. Bought a new soldering tip for the "pyrography". 1 to 5 gallons with quart marks in between.

 

[14thstreet]

How are you doing your cask conditioning?

I followed the instructions given by Kristen in the last couple LBWs. I racked to a cornie with priming sugar and isinglass and let sit at room temperature for several days. Isinglass is optional for the black mild I made (can't see through it). I moved it down to my basement which was ~45F at the time (a bit too cold) and lay it sideways with a block under the bottom end, gas post down. Of course, I needed to break the vacuum to get flow but also did not want to add air to the beer. This is where you can debate whether this is "cask". I attached CO2 to the liquid out to put ~1-2psi on the keg once in a while to increase flow beyond just a trickle, otherwise it was shut off. I'd see a pin as strictly a novelty for me...spend the money on the induction burner!

 

[brewman !]

I just sent a few emails for quotes on 5Kw units to a supplier on Alibaba. I want to do up to 15 gallon batches. I started working on a steam system, but this would be simpler and cleaner, if it works.

There are 8 Kw units, but they are 460V, not 240V.

FYI, electric hot water heating elements are 100% efficient. 1 Kw = 3,412 BTU delivered to the water, 4.5 Kw = 15,350 BTU delivered to the water.

It bugs me none of the manufacturers seem to clarify whether these things draw 3500w or provide 3500w of heat. The later would seem logical, except it doesn't match up with the current draws they are listing.

These things are at most 90% efficient. If the current draw yields a power of 3500 watts, the maximum power they are providing to the pot is 3.15 KW or 10,750 BTU. Which isn't very much.

FYI, you MUST boil wort with the lid removed or you'll encounter problems with DMS. Google "wort boil DMS" for more info.

I'm thinking my steam system would be MUCH faster and not any more expensive. But induction would certainly be simpler.

None of the 5Kw models have temperature controls built in. I'm not sure how easy it would be to automate them.

5Kw @ 90% = 4.5Kw delivered to the pot/water. People do 15 gallon batches with heater elements of that size... its not fast, but they do it.

We have a high power Kitchenaid induction cooktop in our house. Its great. I have 44 and 82 qt BC pots.

 

[sumbrewindude]

First things first, totally sorry for hijacking your awesome thread, Sammy, for the sake of cask talk..

I followed the instructions given by Kristen in the last couple LBWs. I racked to a cornie with priming sugar and isinglass and let sit at room temperature for several days. Isinglass is optional for the black mild I made (can't see through it). I moved it down to my basement which was ~45F at the time (a bit too cold) and lay it sideways with a block under the bottom end, gas post down. Of course, I needed to break the vacuum to get flow but also did not want to add air to the beer. This is where you can debate whether this is "cask". I attached CO2 to the liquid out to put ~1-2psi on the keg once in a while to increase flow beyond just a trickle, otherwise it was shut off. I'd see a pin as strictly a novelty for me...spend the money on the induction burner!

So you're pouring off the gas tube and using the liquid tube as a gas line? Sort of like inverting the keg?

I was doing some thinking about small casks last night (just because I've got nothing better to do than think about beer when the fam goes to bed :rockin: ), and what about those 5L minikegs? I could suffer through a gallon of Bell's Oberon for the container, prime 1/3rd, and condition in that. As it's a gravity feed/O2 intrusion anyway, it might as well be a pin. And as it's only 5L, it'll be through pretty quick minimizing the eventual oxidation issues.

Hmmmmm....



Back on topic - Sammy you brew with that get-up yet? Dang it I wanna see some BEER made!

 

[sammy33]

No worries...enjoying the cask talk.

You and 14thstreet have me hooked on the Barclay Perkins blog! I am thinking of trying the mild with a keg and doing the pseudo cask thing. Noticed my LHBS has Oak casks in stock now. Hmmm?

Gearing up for a brew tomorrow night. Will brew the English Mild instead of the bock...and on Wednesday. See what you guys did now?

 

[sumbrewindude]

LOL. Don't feel bad, I stopped past the beer store and got a mini-keg of Bell's Oberon. I hope to have that finished before the weekend, so hopefully I can start carefully tearing it apart so I can clean it out in preparation for a table beer series.

I'm thinking of grabbing a couple of the two piece bungs for the tops, then when it's time to pour I'll just punch the top and put an "S" airlock on it so while there'll be oxygen intrusion for the pour, it won't be recirculating O2 from an open vent ontop.

Would it be wrong if I said I was excited over the fact that it'd be 14 bottles I wouldn't have to deal with?

If it works out, man - table beer in a 5L minikeg for the fridge, a few extra cellaring in the basement, and bottles for my off the wall/high ABV stuff. Wait a tic, didn't I have some 3gal kegs I just bought?

I'd tell you to play around with oak chips/squares before jumping into the oak barrel thing, Sammy - I tried the chips thinking "oh this'll be a cake". I now have 14 bottles of oaky something that I'm hoping will tame down here in a few weeks, and it really wasn't that much oak! Still love the barrel thing, but I'm learning to appreciate stainless/PETE.

Get to brewing Sammy, I need to get my head out of cask talk and into induction.

 

[14thstreet]

Last word on the "cask"...After using the 5 gallon corny, I'd personally switch to using the 1 gallon collapsible polypins and take any hit of oxidation I'd get while serving. Much less work for being the only drinker (of this batch) even if less fancy. I looked into the 5L minikegs and felt it was too much extra work/money for that amount of beer if you were to use CO2 and they may not last as long . I'm not sure it is at all needed. I have a polypin but for some stupid reason did not use it at the same time for this mild.

 

[sammy33]

In my quest for better clarity in my brews I got an upgraded BIAB from Wilserbrewer. I have had paint strainer bags up until now so this is nice upgrade. The mesh on the Swiss voile is much finer. Should have listened to the Aussie's sooner!

Ordered it on Monday and it came in the mail today just in time to brew this weekend. Tailored perfectly for my 5.5 gallon kettle! Here's a pic of the new bag and my old paint strainer bag for comparison.

 

[sumbrewindude]

Man I've been meaning to get one of Wilser's bags for my 5gal cooler, but I keep spacing on it. Did you get a hop bag while you were at it? I'm usin 1gal paintbags for that right now and they're the bomb. A dedicated bag would be even better.

You brew yet?

Any time the tax man wants to cough up my interest free loan would be awesome - my shopping list keeps getting larger by the day.

 

[sammy33]

Brewing now. LHBS was out of the yeast and part of the grain bill for both recipes I took in. The English Mild and Maibock are off the menu this week. Really need a stir plate for the Maibock to make a starter anyway.

I decided to do a simple Simcoe SMaSH with 2-row pale malt and Safale US-05. Heating up the sparge water now and will post some brewday pics this evening.

 

[sumbrewindude]

Looking forward to the SMASH!

I was going to do the Keptinis, but that has quite the mess going before actual dough in, so I'm pushing it to next weekend.

I'm 30min into a 90min mash on the LIVID experiment, I've got a quart jar of Notty slurry that needs to be used and I can't wait to open up the Simcoe/Mosaic hop bags to see how this is going to turn out.

Looking forward to pics!

 

[sammy33]

Man I've been meaning to get one of Wilser's bags for my 5gal cooler, but I keep spacing on it. Did you get a hop bag while you were at it? I'm usin 1gal paintbags for that right now and they're the bomb. A dedicated bag would be even better.

Missed this part on the first read. I just got the BIAB bag and am using my old paint strainer bags as hop bags. I have always tossed the hops in naked in the past. Maybe this will help clear this beer a bit more.

Simcoe is little more on the earthy side with some pine notes and not as grapefuityish as say Citra. Can't wait to bottle this SMaSH and I haven't even mashed in yet!

 

[sumbrewindude]

You want pine and grapefruit, get a wiff of Chinook sometime. I've yet to get to play with Citra, it's on the list somewhere.

AFA using a hop bag during the boil and clear beer, man are you in for a treat. First time I did it I couldn't believe the difference it made, especially with the siphon to transfer to my carboy. Seemed like a lot less trub than usual. I'm now a fan of using them for sure.

 

[sammy33]

Great brew day...well night actually. Had some of my buddies over for some brews and to watch the brewing and you know how that ends up. I have one 16oz bottle left from the 20 I got of my last Hefe batch on the old system.

First brew on the new induction system went well. I tested the heck out of it so I new my boil offs and its temp control. The mash stayed in a 3 degree range 152-155 with it set to 160F. I checked at 30 minutes and at the end.

Boil was rockin' except at hop additions but came back after a minute or so. Happy! :rockin:

Enough of my yapping here are the pics.

Batch Size: 2.50 gal
5 lbs 15.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
0.43 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] - Boil 60.0 min
0.50 oz Simcoe [12.70 %] - Boil 0.0 min
0.6 pkg Safale American (Fermentis #US-05)

Gettin' ready

Mashin'

Drainin'

Hoppin'

Chillin'

Fermentin'

Cheers