Increasing efficiency.....

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depper

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I've done 3 all grain batches so far this year (and ever) and all have been below my SG with an efficiency of about 60%. I'm starting to think I'm getting too much liquid pre-boil. I am using Beersmith to help me calculate 5.25g batch sizes. I have read many people say to increase the grain bill to help increase efficiency, but I'm not sure how to go about that.

Does this mean to increase all grains by a certain percent, or by some other measure? I know I'm going to watch my pre-boil volume better and also make sure I sparge with the appropriate amount needed too (batch sparge with 2-steps).

I'm sure there are many other ways to help increase efficiency and I'm trying to figure them all out, but I was just curious about the grain bill part. I am planning on brewing a Saison Saturday and hoping to get some advice before. Thanks!

Tim
 
8.50 lbs. Pilsner Malt(2-row)

1.50 lbs. White Wheat

0.50 lbs. CaraMunich Malt

0.50 lbs. Flaked Oats

It's the Cottage House Saison in the recipe section of HBT
 
Do you mill your own grains or do it at the home brew shop?

If you do it yourself then make the gap smaller. If not then get a mill and do it yourself.

Mills at home brew shops tend to not crush as thin, either cause the gap got bigger from that amount its used or they do it on purpose so you get a lower efficiency and have to buy more grains.
 
Batch Size (Gal): 5.50

Total Grain (Lbs): 12.00

Anticipated OG: 1.062

Anticipated SRM: 7.5

Anticipated IBU: 36.3

Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %

Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

I have my home brew shop mill the grains since I don't have a mill (yet).

Help me on this one....by increasing mash water volume won't thin out the beer? Just wondering.....I guess I don't understand the science of mash water volume yet.
 
What is your MLT dead space (the amount of liquid left in your MLT after your normal run off process)? A large dead space can adversely affect your lauter efficiency. You want to get as close to all the wort out of the MLT as you can before you add water for sparging.

When batch sparging, do you stir thoroughly after adding the sparge water? Many people consider ~5 minutes the minimum acceptable stir time. The stir helps insure that the high gravity wort trapped in the grain particles diffuses into the sparge water so you can recover it during run off.

Brew on :mug:
 
Dead space in MLT is 0.44g (10g round cooler with bazooka tube). I stir for about a minute or so when I sparge. If stirring longer helps I will. I usually use a 5g paint stirrer on my drill.

Not sure how batch size is measured...sorry
 
Increasing the grain bill won't increase your efficiency. Given the same process it'll actually lower it. However, it add more fermentables to OVERCOME the efficiency decrease. Basically, it's not increasing lower efficiency, but rather compensating for it.

The easiest way to think of efficiency is to think of "mash" efficiency and not "brewhouse" efficiency. Mash efficiency is strictly how efficient you are at pulling sugar from the grains. When you look at brewhouse efficiency, you not only look at efficiency of pulling sugar from grains, but you also factor in losses to trub, to tubing, to hops, to your chiller, etc, and that can end up changing vastly depending on just different recipes. The problem is that BeerSmith defaults to Brewhouse Efficiency unless you tweak the settings, and if you don't get every setting just right, the numbers it spits out can be wrong. So it's possible (without running numbers myself) that you're actually getting everything right for your system, but BeerSmith is spitting out a difference estimate because there's an equipment setting off somewhere. Basically in your equipment settings (if you do it in a specific recipe it won't work for the equipment profile for future recipes, but if you change the equipment profile it may not change the current recipes, just be aware of that), zero out all losses (trub, chiller, yeast, etc), and set your batch size to be the post-chill volume, and then play with the pre-boil to be exactly what you need given your boiloff rate + cooling shrinkage. And then make your batch size the post-boil, post-chill volume, and NOT the fermenter volume. It defaults to fermenter volume, and if you have losses to trub factored into the equipment profile, then the efficiency numbers get whacky. But doing it this way, the mash efficiency and brewhouse efficiency become the same thing. And then if you normally lose X amount to chiller and tubing and what not, factor that in in your head, don't have BeerSmith do it.

Once you know the actual numbers are lining up properly (and it's actually your efficiency that's low, and not just your equipment settings), as far as how to RAISE your mash efficiency, I would look to:

-grain crush, as mentioned above. Generally a finer crush yields higher efficiency, up until the crush is fine enough that lautering becomes difficult and you either get stuck sparges or your efficinecy starts to go back down. If you're not crushing your own grain, good luck EVER getting consistent efficiency unless you bring a set of feeler guages to your LHBS, and mill the grain yourself adjusting the gap in the mill the same way every time. Easier to just buy your own mill. Plus you can buy in bulk that way.

-Lautering. Are you batch sparging or fly sparging? Fly sparging without the right equipment configuration can lend terrible efficiency, so try batch sparging and see if that helps. Better yet, split your batch sparging into two steps, and you'll do even better. If you insist on fly sparging, decrease your flow rate down to a trickle - sparging a 5 gallon batch should take no less than an hour fly sparging, and invest in a false bottom if you haven't already. Other designs (especially using a braided hose) are recipes for channeling and terrible fly sparging efficiency.

-Do a mash-out. In addition to cementing fermentability by denaturing enzymes, it'll also make the sugars slighly more soluble. It's not a dramatic increase, but I get a couple points extra efficiency if I do a mashout.

-Dial in your mash and sparge pHs. I'm not sure what the mechanism here is, but I know that having a mash pH out of range can hurt your efficiency.
 
Qhrumphf, thanks for the info on BrewSmith. I will make those changes before I brew Saturday. I do plan on getting a grain mill, but just not yet (my wife said to slow down on the "toys"). I do a two step batch sparge, but maybe not stir as long as needed. I am planning on doing a mash-out on my next brew too. Also, no pH meter yet too....again, the wife and the "toys" speech...LOL.

Thanks again for your advice.....
 
Assuming about 7 gal pre-boil and equal run-offs for a two stage batch sparge, then you have about 2.33 gal for each run off. Your dead space would be 0.44/2.33 = ~19% of your run-off volume. If there is anything you can do to reduce your MLT dead space, it will help your efficiency.

Brew on :mug:
 
I have my home brew shop mill the grains since I don't have a mill (yet).

Tell your home brew shop that you are batching sparging they may be able to adjust the grind. They probable have a static setting that is acceptable for batch and fly sparging but is not optimized for either. Chances are they wont want to mess with things, but it does not hurt to ask.

You mentioned you are doing two steps, is the second a mashout step? I found that my efficiency went up 4 or 5 points by doing a mashout step.

Also how many runnings are you doing? If you do have a lot of dead space doing three running may help a little. Doing a 5gal batch in a 10gal mash tun beersmith might only calculate two runnings. To change that you may need to modify the mash profile setting. There is an option called "use equal batch sizes" and one called "batch sparge using batches that fill" which sets the max volume used in the mash tun in the mash profiles Select equal batch sizes then play with the max volume if needed until you get equal volume runnings.
 
I just ask my LHBS to run the grain twice through the mill. Even without changing the settings, it comes out finer than it would with a single pass.
 
There is some really simple math you can do (with just a little bit of tweaking due to your own equipment) that can help you pull the max amount of sugars from your grain bill.

Shoot for about a 50/50 split from your first run and second run combined to get your pre-boil volume.

Your grain bill adds up to 11 lbs so if we crunch the numbers for 1.5qts/lb of grain it looks like this:

11 lbs of grain X 1.5qts/lb of grain = 16.5 qts of H2O. Divide that by 4 and you get 4.125 gal. Your grain will absorb it's weight in water... water weighs about 8.3 lbs/gal so if you divide 11 by 8.3 you get 1.325 gal lost to grain absorption. Simply subtract this number from the 4.125 gal and you will net about 2.8 gal net from you first running. So... from here this will give you an idea about how much water you need to heat up to batch sparge with. If you are shooting for lets say a 6.5 gal pre-boil volume you would need to sparge with about 3.7 gal of water. (the water used for batch sparging with won't get absorbed by the grains so the total pretty much goes straight though, not counting dead space here.)

2.8 gal net 1st running versus 3.7 gal 2nd running is not close to a 50/50 split (which is what I like to shoot for) so let's try a different ratio of water for mashing in.

11lbs X 1.75 = 19.25 qts. divided by 4 = 4.81 gal - 1.325 (loss to grain absorption) = 3.4875 net 1st running. You could batch sparge with another 3.0 gal and be pretty darn close to a 6.5 gal pre-boil volume.

I should also say that you really need to have a good handle on how much volume you lose during the boil. This loss is what you are ultimately trying to over shoot with your pre-boil volume. So if you lose 1.0 gal per hour of boil then you do need to target a 6.5 gal pre-boil volume. (me personally... I like to shoot for a 6.75 gal pre-boil volume because I like to let the hot break go for like 15 min before I actually start the boil timer.)

I use this technique all the time and after crunching the numbers for 1.5/1.75/2.0 qts per pound of grain you will see a relationship that will help you determine how much water to mash with. Depending on grain absorption and dead space in your mash tun and your boil off rate you can easily determine how much water to sparge with. Shoot for that 50/50 split and all of a sudden you efficiency will shoot way up ( ;

One other thing you can think of here... is the temperature of the water you sparge with. Most recipes will suggest sparging with 170F water. I think they are assuming fly sparging. When we batch sparge I think you should actually use hotter water. While the 1st running is draining the grain bed will cool significantly. Check the temp of the grain bed after pouring in the sparge water. Shoot for about a 165F temp after stirring in. You may notice that it might take upwards of 190F sparge water to get the grain bed to rise to 165F, just saying this from my own experience. I drain my mash tun over 45 min to 60 min. After switching to AG I've notice I keep increasing the temp of water used for sparging from 170 to 180 to 185 and even to 190 depending on how many lbs of grain are in the recipe I am brewing.

Keep good notes, the next time you brew this recipe again it will be a piece of cake!
 
You mentioned you are doing two steps, is the second a mashout step? I found that my efficiency went up 4 or 5 points by doing a mashout step.

Also how many runnings are you doing? If you do have a lot of dead space doing three running may help a little. Doing a 5gal batch in a 10gal mash tun beersmith might only calculate two runnings. To change that you may need to modify the mash profile setting. There is an option called "use equal batch sizes" and one called "batch sparge using batches that fill" which sets the max volume used in the mash tun in the mash profiles Select equal batch sizes then play with the max volume if needed until you get equal volume runnings.

I actually meant to say two runnings, of equal amounts. This brew I plan on doing an actual mash-out, along with the two runnings of sparge. Thanks for the advice on BrewSmith too.
 
I should also say that you really need to have a good handle on how much volume you lose during the boil. This loss is what you are ultimately trying to over shoot with your pre-boil volume. So if you lose 1.0 gal per hour of boil then you do need to target a 6.5 gal pre-boil volume. (me personally... I like to shoot for a 6.75 gal pre-boil volume because I like to let the hot break go for like 15 min before I actually start the boil timer.)

I actually measured my boil-off and it was 1.5g over 60 minutes. I try to shoot for 5.25g of wort post-boil so I would need around 6.75g pre-boil. Thanks so much for all the calculation advice. I will sit down tonight to study this over and figure out how to make this work.:mug:
 
I just wanted to thank everyone that gave me their advice and help! I really appreciate all your time and effort. This is truly a great place to go for any help! Blessings to you all!

Tim
 
Read most of the posts, my advice would be to ask them to crush a bit finer if possible or run it through twice if it still looks fairly intact. Second get your volumes bailed down, and dump the dead space wort from the mash tun will help some as well.

If you're having trouble setting beersmith up right, take a look at my mash calculator at pricelessbrewing. github.io/biabcalc to know what you should expect. Be sure to change the grain absorption to 0.125 gal/lb.
 
Read most of the posts, my advice would be to ask them to crush a bit finer if possible or run it through twice if it still looks fairly intact. Second get your volumes bailed down, and dump the dead space wort from the mash tun will help some as well.

If you're having trouble setting beersmith up right, take a look at my mash calculator at pricelessbrewing. github.io/biabcalc to know what you should expect. Be sure to change the grain absorption to 0.125 gal/lb.


I actually got my milled grains today from my brew shop and they actually look pretty good. I talked to the guy about a second crush and he said he never had to do that before and that most people have no issues. I have to take his word for it since the grains did look good and this place sells a lot of grains to brewers. Thanks for the info on the mash calculator. I will take a look!
 
Good, try stirring the mash up a bit more then perhaps you're getting some dough balls or not mixing it up enough to start out with. Are your temps accurate, have you tried calibrating your thermometer? (use two points, boiling water, and ice water)
 
Good, try stirring the mash up a bit more then perhaps you're getting some dough balls or not mixing it up enough to start out with. Are your temps accurate, have you tried calibrating your thermometer? (use two points, boiling water, and ice water)

Even boiling and ice water may not be enough. Many low cost thermometers have a wide tolerance, +/- 5 degrees or more, so just because they'll be accurate at boil/freezing doesn't mean accurate elsewhere. I had a thermometer read accuracte at both, but be 5 degrees high as mash range, so 152 was actually 147. Drastic difference.

However, I'd expect that to work more against fermentability than efficiency (as it did for me, my efficiency didn't change, but my fermentability became more predictable after changing thermometers).
 
For me it was the crush at my LHBS. When I got my own mill, I also went from the 60s to 70s in efficiency. (same batch sparge process)

Though at a couple bucks savings per batch the mill is probably still not paid off! But I feel proud to mill my own gains.
 
Just an update and a big thank you.........

I brewed today and got an 84% mash efficiency (per BeerSmith)!! The closet I got before was 66%.... I really concentrated on getting a 50/50 split from mash volume and sparge volume. I did a mash-out this time as well and my volume was spot on! I just wanted to thank all of you that contributed to my increased efficiency and the time you spent to help. Blessings to you all!

Tim
 
Just an update and a big thank you.........

I brewed today and got an 84% mash efficiency (per BeerSmith)!! The closet I got before was 66%.... I really concentrated on getting a 50/50 split from mash volume and sparge volume. I did a mash-out this time as well and my volume was spot on! I just wanted to thank all of you that contributed to my increased efficiency and the time you spent to help. Blessings to you all!

Tim

Yep. Don't believe when anyone says you can't get good efficiency batch sparging. Good efficiency is worthless if it's not consistent. Next goal should be dialing it in such that on a similar sized grain bill you hit the same efficiency every time, and can accurately predict change in efficiency as you scale up or down the gravity.
 
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