Increase mashout temp w/ batch sparging

[t_met]

I do batch sparging when brewing. One thing that I've noticed is that my first run off is never that hot (<160). And this mashout temperature is never consistent. This is probably due to the thermal properties of the mash compared to the differences of water on that first sparge. That is if I'm doing a 8lb mash vs 14lb mash, the former has more sparge water for the first sparge and the latter has the majority of the first sparge is at my initial mash temperature.

I think I would not only improve efficiency, but also be more consistent if I always did the first mash with the same temperature.

For those that batch sparge with a cooler, how do you raise the temperature of that first sparge? Seems I usually only have about an additional gallon of water to add after the mash for that first sparge (often less). So infusion with boiling water does very little with increasing the temperature.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

If you want to do a mash out before the first runnings. Try lowering the water to grist ratio and mash a little stiffer. This way you will have more water availavle for another infusion before your first runnings. You still may not be able to get it all the way up to mash out temp, but at least you are raising the temp as high as possible. Or, if the infusion doesn't get you where you want, you could always do a decoction before the first runnings.

 

[t_met]

The problem that I'm facing is more specifically doing batches with OG of > 1.065 so I can only make the mash so thick. Even with the thich mashes, and adding some near boiling water ontop of the mash before the 1st sparge. I'm still only in the 158-160F range.

I was thinking decoction or turbid are posibilities. I'm just seeing what others have used? Or do people just never get high mashout temperatures with batch sparging.

 

[Dan]

One time my initial mash temp was to low, way to low. I scooped about a one and a half gallons of the mash out and put it in a pan on the stove, brought up to boiling and then dumped back into the mash tun. The temp of the mash raised to where I wanted it (152) and I had the best efficiency ever (75%). Haven't tried doing that again.

 

[bucfanmike]

based on my understanding the mash out isnt really as important in batch sparging. Since batch sparging is relatively quick compared to fly sparging. This allows you to get the wort into the BK and up to a temp that stops the enzyme activity.

 

[BBL_Brewer]

based on my understanding the mash out isnt really as important in batch sparging. Since batch sparging is relatively quick compared to fly sparging. This allows you to get the wort into the BK and up to a temp that stops the enzyme activity.

I don't think the OP is so much worried about enzyme activity as he is extraction eff. He wants to do a mash out in an attemp to extract more sugar.

When I do batch sparges, I don't mash out before lautering. I do hit mash out temp for the sparge though. Sounds like the only way you'll be able to hit the mark is with a decoction. Honestly though, for the extra little bit of efficiency it may not be worth the added work/time involved. Just something to consider.

 

[jsled]

For those that batch sparge with a cooler, how do you raise the temperature of that first sparge?

I don't, and get 70-80% mash efficiency. Mash out isn't required for most beers.

If I wanted to, I'd probably do a combination of a stiff initial mash, boiling-water addition and decoction.

 

[ayoungrad]

Mash out is used to stop enzyme activity. It may result in some increased efficiency but that is not the purpose. Efficiency is better gained from sparging, not mash out. Stopping enzyme activity is important if you are trying to create a more or less fermentable wort.

For me, I do two batch sparges and BIAB. I used to pull out the bag, drain it, and then add it to temp specific water in a separate pot to get the grain up to 168. I was successful reaching the correct temps (there are calculators all over the net or you can design your own calculator) and so the grains were brought up to 168 to end enzyme activity within the grains.

More recently though, I have been adding a calculated amount of boiling water to my mash to more effectively mash out. What I realized is that the wort left in my original pot after draining the bag was just sitting at 152 (or 154 or whatever) and slowly decreasing in temperature while I sparged in another pot, with enzymes still active in the drained wort. So I was losing the effect of mashing at a higher temp because a large portion of the enzymes are found in the more liquid part of the wort/mash - not in the grain itself.

This may be old news for some but I had certainly never thought about it earlier.

At any rate, if you don't have enough volume in your mash tun to mash out before or during sparging, you could get a larger mash tun, restrict yourself to smaller beers or encorporate DME into larger beers and do partial mashes.

Or, as others have said, many people don't mash out at all. I'm not sure how much of an effect it has, but conceptually it makes sense, so I do it.

 

[ayoungrad]

Sorry... the other option is to add hot water to the first runnings - sacrilege, I know.

 

[ayoungrad]

And yes, another option is a decoction mash out. Which would be straight forward and doable with your set-up. The only issues are that you will increase color and Maillard reaction products - both of which can be good or bad depending on your goals.

 

[t_met]

jsled was right. My concern wasn't the enzime but to increase efficiency. I thought that I read that increasing the temperature would make the sugars more soluble. Maybe I remembered wrong.


For my last brew session. I did my mash around 149 for 60 minutes. I typically add water at the end before recirculating. I read that max efficiency was when your sparges produced equal volumes of wort. This time, the amount of grain I had, it didn't make sense to add any more water. I think it was only a quart or two if I did. I recirculated & sparged.

I closed the drain on the mash tun, and added more water. The mash only got up to about 155F. I recirculating & sparge. I noticed that that my efficiency dropped really low, about 8-10 percentage points.


If I'm reading the prior replies. The temperature only is a few efficiency points. So I should start searching elsewhere in my process.

 

[Yooper]

More recently though, I have been adding a calculated amount of boiling water to my mash to more effectively mash out.

What I do when I batch sparge is sort of the same, but different! What I mean is, I don't do a mash out. BUT, I add my first round of sparge water really really HOT. This brings the grainbed up to 168 and makes the runnings less viscous.

What I do is drain the MLT entirely. Then I add the first round of batch sparge water near boiling (I use Beersmith's "mash out" temperature even if I'm not strictly doing a mash out to get the amount and temperature), stir well, vorlauf and drain. Then add the second round of sparge water at 170 since the grainbed is already at 168.

But you're correct- you're talking of a pretty small gain in efficiency by doing this. It might help, but I'd also consider looking at other factors (like your crush) as culprits if you're plagued by low efficiency.

 

[t_met]

What I do when I batch sparge is sort of the same, but different! What I mean is, I don't do a mash out. BUT, I add my first round of sparge water really really HOT. This brings the grainbed up to 168 and makes the runnings less viscous.

This is what I do, but it seems like I never get the grain bed up to 168. Usually it's a matter of mash tun size limit and trying to get equal volumes on the two sparges. I can't add enough boiling water to increase the temperature much.

 

[Yooper]

This is what I do, but it seems like I never get the grain bed up to 168. Usually it's a matter of mash tun size limit and trying to get equal volumes on the two sparges. I can't add enough boiling water to increase the temperature much.

I don't understand. If you drain the mash tun, and take out say, 2 gallons, then you'd have plenty of room to add a couple of gallons of boiling water.

 

[t_met]

I'm referring to the first initial sparge. This includes the original mash water + a little extra get 1/2 the total pre-boil volume in the kettle. This only is about 2-3F above the original mash temperature. Maybe I'm labeling "first" sparge incorrectly. I only drain the mash tun twice. Once with original mash + little extra and the second time with the remainder of water to achieve pre-boil volume (usually 1/2 total).

When you get the grain bed up to 168F, is this before or after your initial draining of the mash tun.

 

[hiphopopotamus]

I always drain my MLT before adding sparge water whether or not I do a mash out. Either way, there is less thermal mass (since you've just drained about 2 Gal) so the water additions have more of an impact on temperature.

 

[Yooper]

I'm referring to the first initial sparge. This includes the original mash water + a little extra get 1/2 the total pre-boil volume in the kettle. This only is about 2-3F above the original mash temperature. Maybe I'm labeling "first" sparge incorrectly. I only drain the mash tun twice. Once with original mash + little extra and the second time with the remainder of water to achieve pre-boil volume (usually 1/2 total).

When you get the grain bed up to 168F, is this before or after your initial draining of the mash tun.

Drain first. THEN add the first round of sparge water.

I set my first runnings on the heat to help get to a boil faster, and then sparge with the first round HOT to get the grainbed to 168. Stir well, vorlauf and drain. Then do it with the second round at 170, if you have more sparge water. If you're lacking sparge water, because it's a big grainbill and one sparge is all you need to reach your volume, that's ok.

I understand about wanting to get "equal" runnings. But adding more water to top up the volume is screwing you up.

Let's say you have a 10 pound grain bill, for ease of my math!

Mash in with 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. So, that's 15 quarts (3.75 gallons). 10 pounds of grain should absorb 1.25 gallons of water or thereabouts. So your first runnings out should be 2.5 gallons.

Say your desired boil volume is 6.5 gallons. You've got 2.5 gallons out of the first runnings. That means you need 4 gallons of sparge water.

So, drain the first runnings. Set those on the heat if you can. Add HOT sparge water (2 gallons). Stir like your life depended on it, and check the temp to make sure it's 165-170. If it's not, that's ok, but that should be your goal. Vorlauf and drain. Add the second round (2 gallons) of sparge water at 170 degrees. Stir again like your life depended on it, and vorlauf and drain. That will give you 6.5 gallons in the kettle, with almost equal runnings from each draining.

If you only do one round of batch sparging, that's ok. You may get a few more percentage points in efficiency by doing two rounds but sometimes, with larger grain bills, you don't have enough sparge water to do two rounds.

 

[t_met]

Thanks Yooper.

I think you pointed out some key points that determined why I have such a difference in efficiencies. I'm probably not consistent enough with "stir like your life depended on it". I think that some batches I give it a quick stir, other batches I would stir it more.


Thank you all for your replies.