I'm about to give up.

[Jayjay1976]

well known and respected brewer of saisons in socal area once explained to me that he couldnt get them the way he wanted them until he did an atmospheric/full open ferment. no blowoff. not the same yeast, but if that works for saison.....

Saison being a farmhouse style, that really makes perfect sense. I have a packet of Belle Saison and I might try an open ferment with just a towel over it to keep bugs and dust from falling in. A while back I saw some photos here on HBT of a Bavarian brewery where they were fermenting weissbier in wide, open-top vessels, I just don't know if I'm brave enough to try that one myself. Their brewery wasn't sterile to be sure, but the abundance of yeast everywhere likely just outnumber any invasive yeast or mold by such a great degree that they do not to pose a threat to the fermenting beer.

 

[SanPancho]

dont brew any weisse type beers. but ive definitely seen monster krauzens on those suckers. if i had to come up with a solution i'd say split the batch into two 5 gallon buckets so you have plenty of head space and then cover them both with a double layer of cheesecloth. combine them into one vessel once the krauzen dies, or dont.

 

[Gruel]

Jayjay, really sorry to hear that. I'm a fellow Chicago brewer, albeit with a bit less experience. I brew Weizen and Pilsner. I'm really happy with my Weizen, and I find I have to try and keep the banana flavor down...

As I mentioned in Konstantinos thread (also unhappy with his Weizen), all of mine have turned out fine over the years, except for the one time I got a good deal on expired liquid yeast. That was also the time I didn't sparge, but just used a bag, so there was a ton (four times as much as usual) sediment at the bottom of the fermenter. I'm usually trying to keep the banana flavor down. After I drank all of my previous batch, I had to go out and buy some Weihenstephan Weizen (also to try and harvest yeast, unsuccessfully), and find the flavor profile to be uncannily identical (except I like my beer maybe just a tiny bit better; it seems rounder & smoother; maybe it is just sweeter; or maybe just my imagination).

Anyways, enough of the chit chat, some details that may or may not help you:

• I use carbon filtered Chicago city (lake) water, and don't do anything to adjust it further.
• I buy pre-crushed grain at Brew & Grow on Kedzie; last time I asked about the mill setting, but Larry (at least I think it was Larry) said that he brews Weizen with the normal setting, gets good results, and hasn't heard any complaints from anybody else. He offered to crush it twice, but I didn't take him up on it.
• I do a really slow step mash in a 5 gallon kettle on a gas range, with mash in at 95F, ferulic rest at 115F (20 minutes; I don't think this reduces the banana esters, but it is supposed to add clove flavor), protein rest at 125F (10'), beta-amylase/maltase (corrected: NOT maltose) rest at 145F (30'), and finally alpha-amylase (maltose rest) at 162F (30'). The total mashing time is about 3 hours; I'm moving really slow between the last two steps, to avoid boiling/bubbling at the bottom of the kettle. This might be unnecessary, since a bit of boiling might emulate a decoction mash.
• I do sparge (except for that one time), and I find that for Weizen I need a lot of Vorlauf (2 gallons recirculated, I'm guessing, of about 5 gallon final pre-boil wort volume), and I end up with a grey layer of what I guess is wheat flour on top of the grain afterwards. The sparge collection manifold (or is that a lauter manifold?) is slotted copper.
• My efficiency is not too high: Last time I got 4 gallons at 1.056 OG out of 10 lbs grain (3 lbs Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner malt and 7 lbs Weyermann Pale Wheat malt).I have added a bit of lightly colored malt in the past, but I find my Weizens sweet enough without.
• I cool the wort with a copper immersion chiller
• I usually water down to 1.050 density (adding filtered water, which is probably not so well advised, but hey, live a little), and use Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan Hefeweizen; last time I pitched slightly above 26C, 80F or thereabouts.
• When transferring I try to avoid splashing, but a bit of aeration seems unavoidable. When bubbling doesn't start in the next six hours, I often give the fermenter a good sloshing.
• I control the 7.7 gallon glass carboy temperature with an internal copper coil between 16 and 18C. That is 61F to 65F
• I use an airlock bubbler, so fermenting at atmospheric pressure
• I'm pretty religious about sanitizing, except apparently when I pour cold filtered water into the fermenter...

One more thing: reading that braumagazin article, maybe you don't have a lack of banana, but too much other flavors (ethyl esters?) overpowering the banana flavor?

Also, reading the 'maltaseverfahren' article: Ever since reading Palmers description of how the amylases work (alpha and beta), I have always wondered whether you would really need to have the beta do its work (maltose rest) after the alpha.
At least Palmers description of what the enzymes do makes it sound like that would be the logical sequence. Of course, in 'normal' mashing, by getting to the optimum temperature for the alpha, you kill the beta. So, adding some preserved lower temperature mash (or grain), with beta still intact, and going back to 145F after mashing at 162F would achieve that. So might a decoction mash, if you heat the hot part slow enough. Or a step mash with insufficient stirring, where some of the mash at the bottom of the kettle gets a bit of time at the alpha-amylase optimum, and is then fed back to the beta-amylase, to cut the starch down some more.
Supposedly (both quoted locations) this increases banana flavor.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm going to try using an immersion chiller followed by a 30 minute rest to let things settle before transferring to the fermenter.

 

[9Kegs]

I went through the same struggles also. Last few attempts were not perfect but had more banana. I shoot for 5.45 PH (lessens sourness), pitch yeast at 53F and let free rise and hold at 72F for duration. My recipe had 70% wheat and WLP300 yeast. I laughed when I read your list of things you tried only because I did the same still looking for answers. If you have the book Designing Great Beers, Ray Daniels states most weiss beer entered in competitions use extract (not encouraging for us all grain brewers).

 

[tripeland]

This sounds like a real possibility! I must have read the same article, because since that time I've looked at my recirculating cooling method with suspicion. At that time I was chasing down problems I was having with a bitter, husky, grainy off flavor that plagued many batches until I figured out that my mill gap was set too tight. I have wondered whether it is worth trying an immersion chiller just to see how things might change.

THANK YOU!

The two weizens I made definitely had a weird grainy, husky off flavour I did not enjoy. I’m not sure what you mean by using an immersion chiller to reduce turbidity. I believe the off flavour lies in the boiling of a turbid wort.

 

[tripeland]

I went through the same struggles also. Last few attempts were not perfect but had more banana. I shoot for 5.45 PH (lessens sourness), pitch yeast at 53F and let free rise and hold at 72F for duration. My recipe had 70% wheat and WLP300 yeast. I laughed when I read your list of things you tried only because I did the same still looking for answers. If you have the book Designing Great Beers, Ray Daniels states most weiss beer entered in competitions use extract (not encouraging for us all grain brewers).

I wonder if the reason many extract weizens work well is because they don’t have to worry about turbidity and astringency from the wheat grains.

 

[Jayjay1976]

The two weizens I made definitely had a weird grainy, husky off flavour I did not enjoy. I’m not sure what you mean by using an immersion chiller to reduce turbidity. I believe the off flavour lies in the boiling of a turbid wort.

So I need to filter the wort on its way to the brew kettle? That means adding a vessel to my system. I wonder if there is a way to use my pump to filter the wort after pulling the bag. I would think that might take a long time, instead maybe draw it off into buckets until the kettle is empty then rinse it out before adding the wort back in? I guess at least sanotation wouldn't be a problem since this is pre-boil.

Would a standard, household-type filter with polyester sediment cartridge do the job?

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Hm, I honestly don't understand why you wouldn't get that banana flavour. WY 3068 is a solid, balanced yeast (unlike WB06, which is not even really a Hefeweizen yeast...!).
If you can find a bottle of "Gutmann" (a brewery), you could culture up the yeast from the sediment (the bottles contain lots of viable yeast). It produces a ton of banana. But, given that it's a relatively small brewery, it might not be available where you live.

One thing some German homebrewers do to get more pronounced banana flavours is the so-called "Maltaseverfahren", where you basically mash twice, adding a part of the grist and water only after the first run.
Here's a description in German Maltaseverfahren
With the temperature curve, it should be intelligible, but I can also try and translate if you'd like me to.
I should note, however, that others have had mixed results with this method: some praise it, some have been disappointed. But it might be worth a shot if you're so desperate for banana.

Besides no banana flavor, is it good beer? If it is still good drinkable beer, no reason not to keep trying. Not a weissbier expert, but I suspect there might be another yeast you could try.

He's tried the best yeast. The Wyeast 3068 is the Weihenstepan weizen yeast. Have you tried the 30° C rule? Pitching temp °C + ferment temp °C = 30° C. I use to brew banana bombs but now I brew them balanced for competition.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

So I need to filter the wort on its way to the brew kettle? That means adding a vessel to my system. I wonder if there is a way to use my pump to filter the wort after pulling the bag. I would think that might take a long time, instead maybe draw it off into buckets until the kettle is empty then rinse it out before adding the wort back in? I guess at least sanotation wouldn't be a problem since this is pre-boil.

Would a standard, household-type filter with polyester sediment cartridge do the job?

At what gravity do you stop collecting wort? Don't go lower than 1.010 and a bit above this say 1.015 will help with a smoother bier. Also, how much rice hulls do you use if any?

 

[Brewbuzzard]

The guys at my LHBS have tried it and are puzzled about what the problem might be. Year before last I brought my whole system over there for a group brew session in the parking lot, and though I didn't brew a weissbier on that day the instructor checked out my setup and didn't see any problems with my process. Besides the instructor, I was the only other AG brewer who turned up that day, everyone else brewing extract batches so he spent most of the time watching me brew.

On a side note, the hefeweizen the instructor brews has the perfect balance of banana-clove and that intangible, elusive German-ness that takes me back to the years we spent living in southern Germany where we fell in love with the style, sipping fresh Hefeweizen in the hot summer sun.

Here are a few things I can think of that I haven't yet tried:

-Another type of fermenter, glass maybe? I ferment 6 gallon batches in 7 gallon plastic fermonsters
-Chilling with something other than my copper counterflow unit
-Higher end malts, I tend to use Avangard though I did a batch a while back with Bestmalz Heidelberg pils. Should I try floor malted Weyermann or something else?
-Intentionally underpitching; I either pitch a fresh activator pack or most recently a pouch of Lallemand MC dry yeast
-Combination underpitching with oxygenation as mentioned by @TheMadKing
-A different water profile than those listed above
-I own a pH meter but haven't yet started using it, depending mostly on the predictions by brewersfriend
-Due to my BIAB process, most or all break material ends up in the fermenter, should I filter or whirlpool to avoid that?

You definitely want to Whirlpool to leave as much trub behind as possible. I also use good German pils and wheat malts.

 

[Snuffy]

You could brew like a beginner brewer - don't aerate, no yeast nutrient, pitch warm, underpitch - do everything "wrong" from a healthy fermentation standpoint to really get that yeast stressed but multiplying like happy bunnies.

I agree. Go with the WTF approach. Use plain ole filtered water, mash at a single temp, boil 60 mins with minimal amt of hops, toss in yeast and stir. Stick it in the laundry and let her rip. Last Franziskaner clone I brewed was an all DME half batch I bought as an afterthought at the LHBS. I hung on to it for 2 months and then brewed it just to get it out of the fridge. Treated just like that. Fermented at a steady 73 F using WL300. Tasted like banana bread fruitcake. I do have a stainless chiller tho...

Elf shoes can't hurt...

 

[kpsalerno]

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Hefeweizen - A New Hope v2.2
Author: Meee

Brew Method: BIAB
Style Name: Weissbier
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 6.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7.5 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.042
Efficiency: 77% (brew house)

Hop Utilization Multiplier: 1

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.048
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 4.69%
IBU (tinseth): 19.16
SRM (ebcmorey): 9.44
Mash pH: 5.26

FERMENTABLES:
6 lb - Pale Wheat (55.9%)
3 lb - Golden Promise (28%)
0.4 lb - Melanoidin (3.7%)
0.33 lb - Acidulated Malt (3.1%)
1 lb - Dark Wheat (9.3%)

HOPS:
16 g - Mandarina Bavaria, Type: Pellet, AA: 9.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 16.87
6 g - Mandarina Bavaria, Type: Pellet, AA: 9.5, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 2.29

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Strike, Temp: 131 F, Time: 10 min, Amount: 8.5 gal,
2) Temperature, Temp: 145 F, Time: 30 min
3) Temperature, Temp: 161 F, Time: 30 min

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
3 g - Calcium Chloride (dihydrate), Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
2 g - Epsom Salt, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
4 g - Gypsum, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
0.5 g - Baking Soda, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash
0.2 g - Table Salt, Time: 60 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Mash

YEAST:
Danstar - Munich Classic Wheat Beer Yeast
Starter: No
Form: Dry
Attenuation (custom): 73%
Flocculation: Low
Optimum Temp: 63 - 72 F
Fermentation Temp: 75 F
Pitch Rate: 0.35 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
CO2 Level: 4.04 Volumes

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Munich (decarbonated)
Ca2: 46.9
Mg2: 6
Na: 6.9
Cl: 48.7
SO4: 75.5
HCO3: 11.394
Water Notes:

I would suggest you either reduce your 10 min hop addition by a lot or ditch it altogether. I believe you are over-hopping in general, covering up the yeast and malt completely, particularly with the late hops and even your IBUs for bittering are too high for the style.

Please refer to Jamil's example:

https://byo.com/article/german-hefeweizen-style-profile/

 

[kpsalerno]

I would suggest you either reduce your 10 min hop addition by a lot or ditch it altogether. I believe you are over-hopping in general, covering up the yeast and malt completely, particularly with the late hops and even your IBUs for bittering are too high for the style.

Please refer to Jamil's example:

https://byo.com/article/german-hefeweizen-style-profile/

To get to 0.2 IBU/OG for this recipe, reduce your IBU of the 60 min addition to 9 and move the 10 min addition out to 5 min instead to reduce hop flavor extraction.

 

[Vale71]

I wonder if the reason many extract weizens work well is because they don’t have to worry about turbidity and astringency from the wheat grains.

Why do you think wheat malt should impart astringency and turbidity? Wheat malt is huskless and besides that extract weizens are made with extract that is made with a large portion of wheat malt in the grist, so why would they be any different from the AG version?

 

[ncbrewer]

Do you know whether they adjust mash pH?

Yes, this is in relation to using calcium to bring out maltiness and gypsum for more hop character (keeping it elementary for brevity’s sake)

That seems to be right. I should have included my original question to Williams for clarity: "I'm interested in optimizing the water chemistry for my brews when using Williams malt extracts. I brew some malty beers and some hoppy beers, and the water chemistry would be different for each of these. Can I assume that these products were mashed with minimal salt additions, and therefore add the normal amount of salts (specifically gypsum and CaCl), similar to what would be used in a mash?"
(Bold added for emphasis)

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Now days I pay a lot of attention to water I've gone to a RO system, Ph meter, TDS meter, all the chemicals and my beer has improved. However, I use to run the tap water though a RV hose and a charcoal filter. Never did any adjustments, no Ph, and I brewed great beers. My weizen had good clove and banana. And my other German beers were great too. I have a lot of awards.

 

[Jayjay1976]

There are a lot of great ideas here, thanks everyone who has chimed in so far.

A while back I read somewhere about excess shear stress on wort causing flavor problems, I might look into eliminating that as well. An immersion chiller would eliminate the need to use a pump, I might borrow one from a friend just to test this.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

So I need to filter the wort on its way to the brew kettle? That means adding a vessel to my system. I wonder if there is a way to use my pump to filter the wort after pulling the bag. I would think that might take a long time, instead maybe draw it off into buckets until the kettle is empty then rinse it out before adding the wort back in? I guess at least sanotation wouldn't be a problem since this is pre-boil.

Would a standard, household-type filter with polyester sediment cartridge do the job?

You would then have hotside aeration to deal with. A gentle whirlpool should do it.

 

[OldDogBrewing]

Stress is key as it is an open fermentation but an open fermentation is not just letting the bucket without a lid, you need a shallow fermentor, the wider the better and square fermentors are known to produce more esters, but in Germany some breweries use th round

 

[Bassman2003]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I have found hefeweizen to be quite a difficult style to nail like in Germany. Are you using RO water or filtered tap in the recipe you listed? Seems like a lot of adjustment additions. You have a lot of suggestions but I think the best approach is to go back to basics and keep it simple.

- Simple water profile (I only use Calcium Chloride)
- 60% wheat & 40% pils. (acidulated malt too).
- IBU to 14-16, single addition.
- Keep your Hoch Kurz mash a;though if your sediment amount is too high with BIAB, do not dough in at 131f. Dough in at 145f as you will get less sediment if the grain starts at gelatinization temps.
- pH at 5.4-5.5 during the mash, add a knockout addition at the end of the boil down to 5.1
- Limit oxygen amounts before pitching
- Pitch normal to a low amount of active yeast.
- Ferment at 62-68f

If this does not work then something else is wrong with the brewing practices. I know this is not an option with your current setup, but the biggest change in my 16 years of trying to make hefeweizen is going low oxygen... That is when the delicate flavors started to show up.

Let us know how it works out. I know it is in there as many try to get away from banana bombs!

 

[tripeland]

Why do you think wheat malt should impart astringency and turbidity? Wheat malt is huskless and besides that extract weizens are made with extract that is made with a large portion of wheat malt in the grist, so why would they be any different from the AG version?

I found that the harder wheat grain powdered more when milled and escaped the bag when mashed, causing a murky wort. As with BIAB, that flour does not get removed before the kettle and gets boiled. I believe that is where that grainy (not in a good way) off flavour came from. I could very well be wrong!
Extract would not have the same problem as I would expect the manufacturer to vorlauf or filter before they boil/turn it into syrup.
These are just my thoughts and I’m sure many brewers have made great weizen with BIAB.

 

[Vale71]

Considering some of my best Weizens are made with decoction, where the grains are boiled for up to 60 minutes, I would not necessarily associate this with any off-flavor.

 

[Saunassa]

So many posts, I got lost reading them all. So did you pick up the hefeweisen extract kit and brew it? I have had great luck with the Hanks from northern brewer, store bought spring water and 3/4 packet of Munich classic sprinkled into the wort. No rehydrate, no oxygen other then shaking my bmb for 29 or maybe 31 seconds and ferment at 66f four days and four at 72.
I do bottle and not keg and have a great banana and clove flavor. Do you bottle or keg? If you only keg then how about filling some bottles? With bottles you can swirl that last ounce of beer/yeast and add it to the glass.

 

[Jocky]

The one thing I haven't seen you do is ferment actually open.

i.e. no airlock or blow off, just put a cloth or other loose covering over the lid of your fermenter until the krausen starts to drop back.

I've found that this brings the most character out of the yeast, be it saison, weissbier or British styles.

Also give it 48 hours on the cooler end of fermentation and then you can bump up the heat.

 

[Vale71]

The one thing I haven't seen you do is ferment actually open.

i.e. no airlock or blow off, just put a cloth or other loose covering over the lid of your fermenter until the krausen starts to drop back.

I've found that this brings the most character out of the yeast, be it saison, weissbier or British styles.

Also give it 48 hours on the cooler end of fermentation and then you can bump up the heat.

The only thing that's going to accomplish is increasing the risk of infection.

 

[Jocky]

The only thing that's going to accomplish is increasing the risk of infection.

From Brewing with Wheat:
"Research in Germany has found that levels of both 4-vinyl-guaiacol and isoamyl acetate increase substantially in open fermenters".

Follow this link to read the relevant section:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jc2QAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110
Isoamyl acetate = Banana.

When I'm talking about 'Open', I don't mean entirely open to the elements, bugs, stray cats etc. Cover it so that dust and other particles don't drop into it, but don't put it under an airlock. So stick a bit of foil over your carboy mouth or leave the lid cracked open on your bucket.

You want the fermenter to be able to release CO2 and let in oxygen until fermentation starts to slow (then get it under an airlock).

 

[Vale71]

You want the fermenter to be able to release CO2 and let in oxygen until fermentation starts to slow (then get it under an airlock).

You definitely don't want to let O2 in and an airlock will let CO2 out just as well as a fermenter with no lid on, otherwise it would explode.

"Open fermenter" is a misleading historical definition. What makes the difference is the geometry of the fermenter and not whether it's covered and by what.

 

[Jocky]

You definitely don't want to let O2 in and an airlock will let CO2 out just as well as a fermenter with no lid on, otherwise it would explode.

"Open fermenter" is a misleading historical definition. What makes the difference is the geometry of the fermenter and not whether it's covered and by what.

Always happy to learn, so can you expand on that?

I've seen some yeasts stall mid fermentation when under an airlock, and have seen many brewers claim the openness is essential (Schneider Weisse say the oxygen exposure increases 4vg production). Is this all misleading?

 

[Big Monk]

Always happy to learn, so can you expand on that?

I've seen some yeasts stall mid fermentation when under an airlock, and have seen many brewers claim the openness is essential (Schneider Weisse say the oxygen exposure increases 4vg production). Is this all misleading?

Open fermenters in larger production breweries are going to be shallow, i.e. lots of surface area. Think big squares, rectangles, circles, etc. where the surface area is large but the wort depth is small.