IIPA using Wyeast 3711?

[ikyn]

Is it possible to make a malt-forward, high ABV, heavily dry-hopped (and possibly hop-bursted) IPA with lighter malts and using Wyeast 3711 French Saison?

 

[crawfman]

Malt forward...probably not with that yeast. I made a farmhouse IPA which was essentially an IPA with a saison grain bill and tons of late and dry hops. Seemed to work. I get a lot of citrus character from the 3711 which works well with American/citrusy hops. I say go for it but expect it to finish dry.

 

[ikyn]

I was thinking of mashing at like 155 for an hour to try and bring as many unfermentables as I could in. That, and my OG would be somewhere near 1.080.

 

[benflath]

Thinking about doing something similar. Following to see where the discussion goes.

 

[motorneuron]

I'm sure you could make a great beer this way, but I'm not sure you could make a malt-forward beer, especially with lighter malts. That's for at least two reasons. First, when people say "malt" flavor, they usually mean the flavors you get in the 5L to 20L range, things like vienna, munich, etc.. It's hard to make a light beer that is really malty; I think of Oktoberfest, bitter, barley wine, amber, etc. as being really malt-forward, and they are all kind of orange. (But I guess you could use Maris Otter, and maybe no-sparge, to get a strong malt flavor with little color.) Second, and probably more importantly, 3711 produces a pretty strong set of yeast flavors that could easily dominate a more delicate malt profile.

Why the 3711? Is it hot where you are? You could probably use a more heat-tolerant English strain with a swamp cooler if you want to make an IPA. A lot of English strains tend to accentuate malt flavor.

On the other hand, don't be a slave to style. If you want to try this, I'm sure you'll make something good if you execute on your process. I guess I'm not sure that you will make a malt-forward IPA this way, though.

 

[crawfman]

With a starting gravity of 1080, also take into consideration it will most likely (even mashing higher) finish around 1002-1008.

 

[ikyn]

I'm sure you could make a great beer this way, but I'm not sure you could make a malt-forward beer, especially with lighter malts. That's for at least two reasons. First, when people say "malt" flavor, they usually mean the flavors you get in the 5L to 20L range, things like vienna, munich, etc.. It's hard to make a light beer that is really malty; I think of Oktoberfest, bitter, barley wine, amber, etc. as being really malt-forward, and they are all kind of orange. (But I guess you could use Maris Otter, and maybe no-sparge, to get a strong malt flavor with little color.) Second, and probably more importantly, 3711 produces a pretty strong set of yeast flavors that could easily dominate a more delicate malt profile.

Why the 3711? Is it hot where you are? You could probably use a more heat-tolerant English strain with a swamp cooler if you want to make an IPA. A lot of English strains tend to accentuate malt flavor.

On the other hand, don't be a slave to style. If you want to try this, I'm sure you'll make something good if you execute on your process. I guess I'm not sure that you will make a malt-forward IPA this way, though.

Thank you very much for your input.

We don't use air conditioning in my apartment, and the energy savings goes into making beer - so it's around 75-85 right now in my apartment. I want to make this soon before the temperature around here gets up to 90-ish indoors. Then, not even a swamp cooler can save me.

That said, is there an English ale yeast that can handle 75-85 degree temps?

If not, what are some malts or additives I can put into a to give it more sweetness and body when using the 3711? I know I'm bucking tradition and style guidelines with this, but I got into homebrewing so I could experiment. My two best beers were experiments and I had no idea what I was doing. I'm not worried about the yeast throwing off yeast flavors, Mosaic hops are wonderfully floral and fruity already.

 

[motorneuron]

I don't know where you are, but here in NYC, I can still get decent temperatures around this time of year for higher-temperature ale yeasts by: (1) putting my fermenter in a big plastic garbage can, (2) filling that partway with cold water, and (3) periodically adding ice, while (4) positioning the whole thing next to an open window (but not in direct sun). I still don't have any "real" temperature control, as you can see, but I'm definitely able to keep the beer below 75F. Remember, the temperature control is really critical for the first few days of fermentation--basically, during high krauesen--which is when most of the flavor compounds from the yeast are produced (because that's when most of fermentation is). A hotter temperature for the end of fermentation--say, days 4 to 9--will cause increased attenuation, probably, but won't cause many off flavors.

But yeah, as for heat-tolerant English yeasts, consider Cooper's dry ale yeast. It's an English strain that John Palmer specifically recommends for summer brewing (up to 75F). But plenty of other English strains can tolerate temperatures in the low 70s, if you can manage that.

Worst case scenario, you'll still make a good beer with 3711. It will be tough to create something with a higher FG with that yeast--one of its interesting properties is how much it attenuates.

 

[2bluewagons]

With a starting gravity of 1080, also take into consideration it will most likely (even mashing higher) finish around 1002-1008.

+1, 3711 really doesn't give a s**t what your mash temp is, it will take it down way lower than you expect. Especially if you ferment at 75. I just brewed a Saison, mashed at 155 and fermented at 75 and got 90% apparent attenuation. That said, the yeast character is pretty muted in that beer and would complement C-hops as someone said above, and with your 1.080 OG that would put you at 1.008 which is Pliny territory. But it will not be malt-forward by any means. Since when is an IIPA malt-forward anyways?

If you want some maltiness to remain, I would include some crystal malt in there, 5-10% of the 20-40L range. Try to use the English stuff, it's much more "malty" IMO. Or maybe light Munich? Not sure how those would play with the yeast character, though.

 

[LakesideBrewing]

I've been thinking about this for a while now.

I love 3711, it's my house strain. My DIPA recipe is a Heady clone using Conan yeast harvested from a few cans of Heady. I had planned on doing my DIPA this weekend but something went wrong with my Conan harvest. So, after seeing this thread, I think I might just brew my DIPA and throw in some 3711. My DIPA is definitely not malt-forward, but I am a little concerned about 3711's attenuation. Anyone care to talk me out of this?

-Mike

 

[SpeedYellow]

+1, 3711 really doesn't give a s**t what your mash temp is, it will take it down way lower than you expect...

+1.004. I aimed for malty and mouthfeel by using caramunich, crystal, oats, and mashing high, but 3711 doesn't give a sh**. Finished at 1.004 for 93% attenuation.

So no, "malty" and 3711 won't work.

 

[sweetcell]

That said, is there an English ale yeast that can handle 75-85 degree temps?

there may be, but i'm not aware of any. english yeasts tend to throw all sorts of weird esters when you get into the 70's. a good range for them is 62-66*F. based on your current situation i would avoid these.

If not, what are some malts or additives I can put into a to give it more sweetness and body when using the 3711?

your could try malto-dextrine (body) and unfermentable sugars like saccharine, aspertame or lactose (sweetness).

I know I'm bucking tradition and style guidelines with this, but I got into homebrewing so I could experiment.

that's why many of us do it just expect a certain number of experiments to turn out not so well. all part of the learning process. HBT is a great resource for limiting those "learning experiences"...

and speaking of style guidelines: i don't think that a beer made with 3711 could be called an IPA. IPAs shouldn't have much yeast character, and shouldn't finish too dry. methinks you're making a hoppy saison.

 

[ikyn]

I very much appreciate the brutal honest replies. I've decided to opt out of this experiment. I'm just going to rack onto my S-04 cake and swamp cool the best I can!

 

[SpeedYellow]

No, don't give up! Perhaps it won't work with 3711 but maybe another yeast will do what you want. If you have a vision for a beer, you owe it to yourself to try.

 

[ikyn]

I've already decided I'm just gonna make a big beer, and use some the S-05 California yeast.

 

[motorneuron]

This is good. With fans and ice and all that, you can drop the temperature ten degrees (or even more) if you're diligent. Consistent icing in the first few days is key for me. Plus, as to the flavor, although you'll wind up with something fruitier if you ferment hotter, you're not going to wind up with a ruined and bizarre beer if you keep things in the low 70s. And it's easy to stay in the high 60s, at least for me, with swamp cooling and ice.