I can relate. I feel the same way especially about movies. I've said about Pliny the Elder on this site before and Pliny the Younger on this THREAD specifically, it's just beer. Folks need to judge it on it's merit, not on any hype surrounding it.
I tried Pliny the Younger
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WissahickonBrew
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Whenever a person spends way more resources (money, time or effort) than they should have, they defend their actions with superlatives to convince you (and themselves) that it was all worth it.
People who spent hours waiting in line for a half pint of expensive beer in this thread all state it was like tasting nectar of the Gods when they finally got a taste.
People who stumbled upon an open tap, and tried under typical conditions (no waiting) state it's just a tasty beer, but nothing that justifies sacrificing hours in line.
'jus sayin'...
People who spent hours waiting in line for a half pint of expensive beer in this thread all state it was like tasting nectar of the Gods when they finally got a taste.
People who stumbled upon an open tap, and tried under typical conditions (no waiting) state it's just a tasty beer, but nothing that justifies sacrificing hours in line.
'jus sayin'...
LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
I read something about RR a few months ago that kind of stuck in my brain. It was about the owners and the quote was, "We don't like debt and we don't like investors."
In my view, this mindset really limits your business. Taking on debt is how businesses grow. I read "The Lagunitas Story" by Tony Magee and that man knows how to run a business. All he did was take on debt, use it to grow the brewery and the brand, and build his business. As a result, Lagunitas is one of the most advanced (equipment-wise) and largest craft breweries in the US. Their business is booming and they can barely make enough beer. They've opened a second brewery in Chicago and they just keep growing.
RR, on the other hand, makes amazing beer and they can't make enough to meet demand. There is a huge market share that they're missing out on because they have a notion that "debt is bad".
When is the last time you heard of a successful business pulling out of a market because they couldn't meet demand? It doesn't sound like a terribly well-run business to me. They are obviously much better brewers than they are business people.
In my view, this mindset really limits your business. Taking on debt is how businesses grow. I read "The Lagunitas Story" by Tony Magee and that man knows how to run a business. All he did was take on debt, use it to grow the brewery and the brand, and build his business. As a result, Lagunitas is one of the most advanced (equipment-wise) and largest craft breweries in the US. Their business is booming and they can barely make enough beer. They've opened a second brewery in Chicago and they just keep growing.
RR, on the other hand, makes amazing beer and they can't make enough to meet demand. There is a huge market share that they're missing out on because they have a notion that "debt is bad".
When is the last time you heard of a successful business pulling out of a market because they couldn't meet demand? It doesn't sound like a terribly well-run business to me. They are obviously much better brewers than they are business people.
I do not believe they said they don't like investors. Maybe you should cite your source. As far as the rest of it, a business can be perfectly healthy growing organically and staying away from debt. I work in finance. Trust me when I say a business with no debt on it's balance sheet is healthier then the same sized business carrying debt. Whats with your obsession on insisting they take on debt? Do that for yourself if you're comfortable, this is America, and business owners get to do things the way they see fit.
From the website:
Maybe not pulling out of the market entirely, but this happens all the time. A new business takes off and all of a sudden they have purchase orders they can't meet so they go unfulfilled. So the company has to make a very critical decision. Do they try to find investors and give up part of their company in hopes that this helps them grow faster and meet demand? Or do they move along, grow slowly, not meet demand, but at the same time continue to hold the majority ownership of their business. This not uncommon at all and is usually a major turning point within a thriving new business. How the ownership decides to move forward is of course their choice and will help define them as a company. It will also help define whether they succeed or not.
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LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
Well, I was close. The quote was, "We don't want partners and we don't like debt."
http://www.greensheet.com/emagazine.php?story_id=3496
Obsession is an awful strong word. I made one post where I said they could grow their business with debt and so now I have an "obsession" and I "insist they take on debt". That's quite a leap you've made there.
Remmy
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I have yet to try PtY or PtE for that matter. But I don't understand how in the world people wait in lines for so long for a BEER. It's BEER. You're going to ingest it and piss it out an hour later.
I know a few people in my extended family (actually SWMBO's side) that have driven up to The Alchemist for Heady Topper, only to be told Heady Topper was sold-out. It's a 5-HOUR RIDE from Connecticut! Idiots.
I know a few people in my extended family (actually SWMBO's side) that have driven up to The Alchemist for Heady Topper, only to be told Heady Topper was sold-out. It's a 5-HOUR RIDE from Connecticut! Idiots.
Obsession isn't really that strong of a word, but since words are powerful I'll refer to it as a consistent theme if that's more acceptable to you.
There's a big difference between what you said, and what the actual quote was. Words are powerful indeed, so getting quotes right is important.
As an edit, I read that blurb. It's so non specific and lacking context, I wouldn't derive any judgments based on that singular quote with really, no source cited other then "Russian River responded"...but that's just my bias when it comes to rushing to judgement.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
For the most part I think it is PEOPLE who are most responsible for hype, not the brewery. There are two kinds of people in this world: those willing to wait in a long line for absurd amounts of time to get something they believe is special enough, and those who hate waiting in line for about any reason. The later will never understand the former.
That being said there ARE breweries out there who take advantage of the hype for their products. RR doesn't sound to me like one of them. But there are marketing tricks and gimmicks used by some breweries to take full advantage of over-hyped product. There isn't anything wrong with them making profit off of that hype, but I'm the type of person who's just going to go enjoy someone else's beer if I believe a product is over hyped, if there is a long line for it or if I feel a brewery is taking action to encourage the hype.
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That being said there ARE breweries out there who take advantage of the hype for their products. RR doesn't sound to me like one of them. But there are marketing tricks and gimmicks used by some breweries to take full advantage of over-hyped product. There isn't anything wrong with them making profit off of that hype, but I'm the type of person who's just going to go enjoy someone else's beer if I believe a product is over hyped, if there is a long line for it or if I feel a brewery is taking action to encourage the hype.
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This is what I said about the whole "beer hype" situation on another forum.
"I have so much great beer around me it makes no sense to me to put up with that nonsense (long lines/near riots), but I think the author did a good job pointing out that these things have become about more than just the beer. People attending these events do so to be a part of the "beer culture" and to say that they were there more than they do to get the beer itself. But hearing how much time some people waited in line just to get a 10oz pour of PTY or the CCB near-riot, it seems the lengths people are going to set themselves apart in beer culture by obtaining or drinking these "hyped" beers is reaching a point of laughable ridiculousness."
*edit: Article referenced in the post: http://www.washingtonbeerblog.com/fine-line-between-beer-geeks-beer-jerks/
"I have so much great beer around me it makes no sense to me to put up with that nonsense (long lines/near riots), but I think the author did a good job pointing out that these things have become about more than just the beer. People attending these events do so to be a part of the "beer culture" and to say that they were there more than they do to get the beer itself. But hearing how much time some people waited in line just to get a 10oz pour of PTY or the CCB near-riot, it seems the lengths people are going to set themselves apart in beer culture by obtaining or drinking these "hyped" beers is reaching a point of laughable ridiculousness."
*edit: Article referenced in the post: http://www.washingtonbeerblog.com/fine-line-between-beer-geeks-beer-jerks/
I don't see anything like that in this thread. Instead there are very measured responses, and most people here say it's not really worth standing in line for hours.
For those who are asking about why it isn't produced more:
"Just like the Pliny the Elder, the growth and popularity of Pliny the Younger has happened organically, we did not start with the intentions of building a beer that in time would have this HUGE buzz around it, it was just something fun to brew and over the years we have made a little more each year. We are at our maximum limit though now on how much we can brew. In truth it is a very difficult beer for us to brew as it takes 6 weeks to make, a batch of something else usually takes 21 to 24 days so as you can see if you do the math we lose a lot of tank space when we make Younger, in fact, we lose an entire fermentation cycle on two tanks when we make Younger. We may try to make a small amount more in the future but because of the production issues it causes us it will never be produced in any quantity." -Vinnie Cilurzo source (I recommend reading it to understand)
As far as the hype is concerned, I believe it is largely dependent on human nature. Aside from being a notably well crafted beer, there are reasons why people are drawn to them. Three things that come to my mind when I see things get hyped (and not just beer). First there is exclusivity. The need to feel included drives many people to go our of their way, spend more than they normally would, or exert more effort. It's the notch on the belt, the check in the box, and the ability to say you're "one who did it." Secondly there's gambling. I don't really see it in this instance but it has a light presence in the craft beer community (for example Three Floyds golden tickets). The third is quite simply our nature to collect things. Whether it's a baseball card, a rare action figure, or a hard to obtain beer. It appeals to people because they can say that they've had the top X number of beers in the world, or that they've had all the beers in X region or X category, or even that they've tried all be beers from X brewery. These are just my observations and I don't judge one way or another.
"Just like the Pliny the Elder, the growth and popularity of Pliny the Younger has happened organically, we did not start with the intentions of building a beer that in time would have this HUGE buzz around it, it was just something fun to brew and over the years we have made a little more each year. We are at our maximum limit though now on how much we can brew. In truth it is a very difficult beer for us to brew as it takes 6 weeks to make, a batch of something else usually takes 21 to 24 days so as you can see if you do the math we lose a lot of tank space when we make Younger, in fact, we lose an entire fermentation cycle on two tanks when we make Younger. We may try to make a small amount more in the future but because of the production issues it causes us it will never be produced in any quantity." -Vinnie Cilurzo source (I recommend reading it to understand)
As far as the hype is concerned, I believe it is largely dependent on human nature. Aside from being a notably well crafted beer, there are reasons why people are drawn to them. Three things that come to my mind when I see things get hyped (and not just beer). First there is exclusivity. The need to feel included drives many people to go our of their way, spend more than they normally would, or exert more effort. It's the notch on the belt, the check in the box, and the ability to say you're "one who did it." Secondly there's gambling. I don't really see it in this instance but it has a light presence in the craft beer community (for example Three Floyds golden tickets). The third is quite simply our nature to collect things. Whether it's a baseball card, a rare action figure, or a hard to obtain beer. It appeals to people because they can say that they've had the top X number of beers in the world, or that they've had all the beers in X region or X category, or even that they've tried all be beers from X brewery. These are just my observations and I don't judge one way or another.
LOL..I have no self control. I'm sure the guy with his untapped and twitter handles in his sig line never hyped a beer. LOL!
I waited. It was good. I liked last year's better. I wouldn't say Waitng in line or traveling places for beer constitutes idiots. Hell- the line is half the fun and I met some great folks from Chicago that are sending me hard to get beers. Although it does suck that your inlaws drove 5 hours and didn't get anything for it.
Just as an aside- How long do you wait for your sours to mature? Bet it's longer than I waited in line.
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
what's wrong with wanting to keep the company at a smaller size to keep quality control up?
many of the most desired (aka hyped) beers are from small breweries that could easily expand much larger in size if they wanted to but chose to stay small. It's not fair to compare lagunitas to RR and say one is a better business than the other. IMHO most RR beers are far superior to those from lagunitas and when I order a beer or judge a brewery I go by taste not how big or small the brewery is.
being successful isn't solely measured by profit and sales or how far your distribution is
I don't know Vinny and can't speak for him and his wife but I'd hardly say they are bad business owner's. He takes pride in what he makes and obviously likes to keep tight control over his product. Their sour beers are among the best around and while I agree that no beer is worth hours in line for, Blind Pig, PTY and PTE are among the best hop forward beers i've had.
They could've gone to Blackback pub right in town and probably had it on tap along with some Hill Farmstead and Lawson's.
Remmy
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Instead, they went to 4-5 beer stores before one finally had Heady. They only sold them a 4-pack. Ridiculous, especially considering the 10-hour round trip.
Damn, I'm glad they at least got some, although only a four pack. Still got 3 left from a case. Holding on to them for dear life.
I gotta say, Heady ages really well. Of course the hops fade somewhat with time, but I find the malt character is great in this beer. It changes, but not in a bad way, but you'll still get plenty of hop flavor.
It's usually a 3 hour trip for us up to Hill Farmstead. SWMBO has family up there. We've got a little one in tow, but I still manage to make the most of the time and come back with a few growlers.
istuntmanmike
Well-Known Member
I don't care if it's made from unicorn tears, I'm not waiting in line for hours for any beer. I'll enjoy what I can get my hands on, and the rest, I just don't care about. I know that beer is just beer, and if I can't get one particular DIPA, I'll just have to drink another one. There are PLENTY of great beers out there, without all of the hype. I often find that a ton of hype just ends up disappointing anyways. People like to make a big deal out of little things, and one beer from one brewery is, to me, just a little thing.
Calichusetts
Well-Known Member
Hype and lacing are the two most important factors in making a great beer...seriously though.
I don't get why everyone's getting so built up about this. If people want to wait in line, let them. And it is part of the culture. I'm sure they are meeting other enthusiasts, trading stories, maybe even other beers.
I liken it to a bar. You can buy most beer at a nice craft store so why "wait" for a bartender to come and serve you? Because we are social animals, that's why. People like experience, whether its spending a night at a bar and making new friends or laughing with old ones, or going on a road trip to a brewery. Just because the brewery is packed and has lines, it doesn't change the intent of the experience.
I've met some of my closest friends through going to bars and through the beer culture around my area. In fact, nearly everyone I hang out with besides my family is a home brewer and into craft beer. I'm not a far drive from Heady or Hill Farmstead but I don't see the need to go, wait, and maybe be out. Mainly because many people around me do it regularly and I get easy access to their spoils. Can't hate on that.
My wife wants to take our kid to see sesame street in Penn this summer. One of the first things I did was see how far it was from Tired Hands and bars with Pliney and other local favorites. If I make it there, great, if not, I still get a great experience with my family.
I don't get why everyone's getting so built up about this. If people want to wait in line, let them. And it is part of the culture. I'm sure they are meeting other enthusiasts, trading stories, maybe even other beers.
I liken it to a bar. You can buy most beer at a nice craft store so why "wait" for a bartender to come and serve you? Because we are social animals, that's why. People like experience, whether its spending a night at a bar and making new friends or laughing with old ones, or going on a road trip to a brewery. Just because the brewery is packed and has lines, it doesn't change the intent of the experience.
I've met some of my closest friends through going to bars and through the beer culture around my area. In fact, nearly everyone I hang out with besides my family is a home brewer and into craft beer. I'm not a far drive from Heady or Hill Farmstead but I don't see the need to go, wait, and maybe be out. Mainly because many people around me do it regularly and I get easy access to their spoils. Can't hate on that.
My wife wants to take our kid to see sesame street in Penn this summer. One of the first things I did was see how far it was from Tired Hands and bars with Pliney and other local favorites. If I make it there, great, if not, I still get a great experience with my family.
boat_eggs
Well-Known Member
As a local who lives a 10 minute bike ride for the brewery I can say most locals are glad when PTY is gone. We get our pub back. I also remember a few years back before the lines when you could go in and get it in pint form. I also remember the year that I went in on opening day and they had erased it from the board already because it was the first year with a line and the last year that they allowed growlers. People showed up early with coolers full of growlers to sell or hoard. Everyone was pissed that year, including Vinnie and Natalie. Since then there have been lines and a daily allotment.
Now it is just kinda ridiculous. People waited in line 12+ hours this year in a damn heavy rain storm, talking 3" in one day heavy. We locals are angry with a few things: the lines! (I'll let this slide since it is a great beer and after the growler drain year demand has skyrocketed), they now post the days on facebook (maybe twitter too) when they expect the line to be short (these are the days that the locals can actually get some) and the "you know someone" crap. I went down 3 days this year, 2 times I went off to another local brewery, after seeing the line, that has a really good DIPA at the same time. The other I got in in less than 20 minutes waiting in line. A few days before I had a coworker that called a friend that works there and bypassed the 8 hour line that day, got 6 PTY (they only allow "3" per person but if you are not too stupid you can get more) and a growler for free! Other friends did the same thing only without the growlers. I have friends who work there and I take the stupid honorable route and wait for the day that there is no line. It is a personal choice I guess.
To be fair to Vinnie and Natalie, they want to keep their brewery good and micromanage it to their liking, not a bad thing, I love the result...for the most part. The employees hate those 2 weeks but love it later as it is like a Christmas bonus to them, they make a crap ton more in tips and it is good for them.
Someone mentioned the other local businesses clouded by the lines and this has gone on long enough but I will say that I have herd first they hated the lines, now they work with them and prosper.
tldnr: it is a great beer, not worth the lines, people cheat the lines, 3rd street ale works has double standard, i need another beer now
Now it is just kinda ridiculous. People waited in line 12+ hours this year in a damn heavy rain storm, talking 3" in one day heavy. We locals are angry with a few things: the lines! (I'll let this slide since it is a great beer and after the growler drain year demand has skyrocketed), they now post the days on facebook (maybe twitter too) when they expect the line to be short (these are the days that the locals can actually get some) and the "you know someone" crap. I went down 3 days this year, 2 times I went off to another local brewery, after seeing the line, that has a really good DIPA at the same time. The other I got in in less than 20 minutes waiting in line. A few days before I had a coworker that called a friend that works there and bypassed the 8 hour line that day, got 6 PTY (they only allow "3" per person but if you are not too stupid you can get more) and a growler for free! Other friends did the same thing only without the growlers. I have friends who work there and I take the stupid honorable route and wait for the day that there is no line. It is a personal choice I guess.
To be fair to Vinnie and Natalie, they want to keep their brewery good and micromanage it to their liking, not a bad thing, I love the result...for the most part. The employees hate those 2 weeks but love it later as it is like a Christmas bonus to them, they make a crap ton more in tips and it is good for them.
Someone mentioned the other local businesses clouded by the lines and this has gone on long enough but I will say that I have herd first they hated the lines, now they work with them and prosper.
tldnr: it is a great beer, not worth the lines, people cheat the lines, 3rd street ale works has double standard, i need another beer now
I used to live about 10 Minutes by bike as well. Went to SRJC, and my roommate was a barmaid at the Old Vic (same site as the current pub). I was there seeing friends, and doing a little business on opening weekend, and like you, I went elsewhere. As it coincided with SF Beer Week, I found a local taproom that had the most amazing beer selection I've ever seen, bourbon county, FW Anniversary, and about 10 other beers that are exceptionally rare.
I don't begrudge Vinny and Natalie either, I'm stoked for their success. But I too will pass on the line.
PS, I think you're being conservative with the rain totals...maybe you're right on though...but for the storm total (which most of it fell Saturday IIRC, with a bit less on Sunday) I read 10"!!!
Completely agree! I will admit searching out harder to find Firestone Walker beers like their Anniversary's, Parabola's, etc... but I'd never wait hours in line for one. To me it's just silly. My time is far too valuable. I'm not disparaging others who want to wait hours... ok, maybe I am a little, but to each their own. You'd just never catch me waiting hours to get a glass or bottle of beer.
I've often wondered if a brewery like Lagunitas, just as an example, took a beer like Hop Stoopid (which IMO is one of the best CHEAP DIPA, $4-5 locally for a 22oz) and made it a once a year limited release, would people go nuts for it? Probably... because it's all about the hype and much, much less about the beer itself. Pliny is good, but there are many other DIPA's I'd gladly pay an extra few dollars for, but none I'd stand in line for. It's just beer. Nothing proprietary about it. If you work enough at it, you can make the same thing at home for a fraction of the cost.
I feel like I'm misunderstanding what you are saying. What do you mean by entitlements? Are you saying that people standing in line are expressing that they are entitled to get beer? Or are you saying that the people who live in the local area are beholden to an entitlement of the beer because they are locals? I'm just trying to understand your post but it feels like it was cut off before you finished your thought.
I'm wondering how many people that have mentioned never being willing to stand in line for this have stood in line for a movie. Or Disneyland/Disneyworld or any other theme park hours for a 4 minute roller coaster ride. It's not that different.
It's really no different than a non-home brewer saying "You wait 4-6 weeks for a beer? I can go down to the store and have one in the next X minutes".
To each their own.
It's really no different than a non-home brewer saying "You wait 4-6 weeks for a beer? I can go down to the store and have one in the next X minutes".
To each their own.
I was thinking the same thing. I'm not sure he knows what point he's trying to make or the meaning of "entitlement" for that matter.
