I need some help from our resident electric brewing specialists

[JoshuaW]

Im hoping you might have a better idea of what is going on before I spend the money to freight this back to the manufacturer.

I purchased some Chinese made equipment, and it is not within electrical spec. I had spec'd US 220V, 60hz. What I received is 220V 60hz, but the space for the incoming power is only two wires, labeled for hot and neutral. As we all know, 220/240v in the US is three wires, two hot, one neutral (and sometimes one ground). The manufacturer wants me to send back the equipment to be corrected, but before I do that, I want to know if there is any way to correct this. It will probably cost me a very substantial amount in freight to send everything back, so I dont really want to do that unless absolutely necissary. On the other hand, I will completely lose all warranty and support if I do anything to it, but that is a minimal worry to me, since it will cost me an asinine amount of freight to have anything corrected.

Im also worried that if I have any work on it done here, will that impact the existing components? Heating elements, probably not. What about pumps and the glycol chiller though?

Here are the handful of pictures I have. I will take more pictures of the interior of the panel this afternoon, as well as any pictures of specific closeups any of you might need to get a better idea of what is going on.

This is where the power was supposed to be hooked up:

This is the wiring "diagram" included

This is the front of the panel. Nothing overtly more complex than a Kal Clone, other than the PLC. The PLC has a power supply on the inside of the panel, so I dont think that is a concern.

 

[Spooner61]

If you have a automation supplier close you can buy a slide in and add it to the din rail

 

[JoshuaW]

If you have a automation supplier close you can buy a slide in and add it to the din rail

I know these words, but I have no clue what they mean when used together

 

[Protto]

Why do you think you need the neutral? Is there any 110v equipment in there at all? You only need to connect the two hot legs and ground as far as I can read this.

By the way, in other countries it is common to laber the two hot legs L and N. Has nothing to do with the neutral in your 110v systems in the US.

 

[JoshuaW]

Why do you think you need the neutral? Is there any 110v equipment in there at all? You only need to connect the two hot legs and ground as far as I can read this.

By the way, in other countries it is common to laber the two hot legs L and N. Has nothing to do with the neutral in your 110v systems in the US.

I had that thought as well, they are expecting everything to come in at 220v, and as far as I can tell, there is no 110v stuff.

Im tempted to do that, but Im also fearful of breaking stuff. I guess I dont have a ton to lose, I could inadvertently fry some stuff and send it back...

 

[srice]

First thing you should have done is to spec a 240v system. I seriously doubt that you have 220

Proto is correct. Since you spec'd 220, you probably aren't running anything on the 120. This means that you don't need a neutral leg. Just hook L1 to L, L2 to N and ground to ground. I'd also label the snot out of it so that the next person isn't confused.

 

[JoshuaW]

First thing you should have done is to spec a 240v system. I seriously doubt that you have 220

Proto is correct. Since you spec'd 220, you probably aren't running anything on the 120. This means that you don't need a neutral leg. Just hook L1 to L, L2 to N and ground to ground. I'd also label the snot out of it so that the next person isn't confused.

Lets throw a hypothetical here. Lets assume they planned on that being live and neutral. That creates a 220/240v circuit, correct? If I attach one hot wire to both spots, that also creates a complete circuit, with only 220/240v, correct? So the only "risk" is if the system contains 110/120v components as well, right?

 

[muhteeus]

Lets throw a hypothetical here. Lets assume they planned on that being live and neutral. That creates a 220/240v circuit, correct? If I attach one hot wire to both spots, that also creates a complete circuit, with only 220/240v, correct? So the only "risk" is if the system contains 110/120v components as well, right?

Yes. As far as I have seen, the way to pull 2 voltages off 1 service is mulit-phase. So the system is probably designed without 110V.

 

[JoshuaW]

Thanks for the answers so far! I have received some corroborating comments from other sources. Im comfortable giving this a test run. If for some reason something fries, I would have to send out anyways. If it works, and it sounds like it should, I should save a substantial amount. Risk/reward sounds about right for me.

Sanity check, I dont have the outlet setup for it. I do however have an electric range not very far away. Can I wire it up to that outlet, verify that it will work, then have my electrician come out and wire me up proper? Or is this a terrible idea, and I should just be patient, burn a vacation day next week, and have the electrician come out? If it is sane to wire it to an outlet for a test, I dont see an obvious ground point on this thing. Should I wire the ground to the chasis of the control pannel, or something else? Im straight up omitting the neutral, correct?

Pardon me if I seem over anxious to get this up and running. I havent brewed in two months while I waited on this to come in. If I know it will work, I can have the electrician come out and be brewing by next week. If it doesnt work, I dont want to burn a vacation day having the electrician come out yet, when I will have to burn another day having the freight company come out and pick it up.

 

[JustLooking]

Love to see a picture of the rest of this rig. What is the system that you're using this on?

 

[JoshuaW]

Love to see a picture of the rest of this rig. What is the system that you're using this on?

Here are the two best photos I have of it, pardon the messy garage, it came in a week early so I didnt have time to finish cleaning everything out! I havent linked the fermentors to the BK/MT yet, because I wanted to resolve the electrical issues first. The third picture is of the demo unit from the manufacturer. Im not sure what compelled them to move the control panel to the cabinet, but no big deal.

It is a 50l system that I will do 10 gal batches in. Fermenters are jacketed and glycol cooled. Sitting in the cabinet below is a pump for CIP system, wort pump, cold water pump, and a 50l cold water tank. Everything is extremely well insulated, like two inches of insulation.

 

[srice]

Sanity check, I dont have the outlet setup for it. I do however have an electric range not very far away. Can I wire it up to that outlet, verify that it will work, then have my electrician come out and wire me up proper? Or is this a terrible idea, and I should just be patient, burn a vacation day next week, and have the electrician come out? If it is sane to wire it to an outlet for a test, I dont see an obvious ground point on this thing. Should I wire the ground to the chasis of the control pannel, or something else? Im straight up omitting the neutral, correct?

I would certainly hook it up and perform a test first. The thing that gives me the greatest concern is the lack of an obvious ground. There is no way that I would fire that beast up without a good ground and a GFCI circuit.

 

[JoshuaW]

Especially with the questionable wiring! I will figure something out for the ground on the test. How would GFCI work without using the neutral?

 

[srice]

GFCIs work by comparing the current through each leg of the circuit and assuming that anything missing is going someplace bad. A 240 VAC breaker compares the current flow through L1 and L2. Most also have a neutral connection so that you can have some 120 VAC components as part of the load. If the 120 VAC draws no current, it only uses the 240 VAC to make the ground fault decision.

Example
L1 -> L2 = 10 amps
L1 -> N = 5 amps

L1 will see 15 amps, L2 will see 10 amps and N will see 5 amps.

In your case, the neutral leg (real neutral not your equipment neutral since that is L2) will draw 0 current.

Either way, I would definitely probe the chassis with a voltmeter before I touched it.

 

[JustLooking]

Here are the two best photos I have of it........]

Wow! That's a thing of beauty. Are you homebrewing or planning on going pro?

 

[JoshuaW]

Wow! That's a thing of beauty. Are you homebrewing or planning on going pro?

Someday, I hope. I really wanted to improve my process this year. I explored several options, and was considering doing a Kal clone, but I decided to see what some of the Chinese brewery manufacturers were making on the small size, and I found this! It's been a fun experience working on getting it all to come together, and it was about the same I would have spent on a Kal clone and three non-jacketed conicals.

GFCIs work by comparing the current through each leg of the circuit and assuming that anything missing is going someplace bad. A 240 VAC breaker compares the current flow through L1 and L2. Most also have a neutral connection so that you can have some 120 VAC components as part of the load. If the 120 VAC draws no current, it only uses the 240 VAC to make the ground fault decision.

Example
L1 -> L2 = 10 amps
L1 -> N = 5 amps

L1 will see 15 amps, L2 will see 10 amps and N will see 5 amps.

In your case, the neutral leg (real neutral not your equipment neutral since that is L2) will draw 0 current.

Either way, I would definitely probe the chassis with a voltmeter before I touched it.

Okay, that makes sense. I definitely will use a voltmeter prior to attempting to electrocute myself :cross:

 

[atoughram]

Who makes that brewery? I like it!

Could you take a picture of the complete electrical schematic and post it?

 

[JoshuaW]

Who makes that brewery? I like it!

Could you take a picture of the complete electrical schematic and post it?

Here is a gallery of various pictures related to the control panel. Some of them are absolute crap because it is getting good dark, and unfortunately it is facing opposite my garage lights. If something interests you, or warrants further inspection, I can snap a better pic tomorrow.

JN Haolu is the company that makes this brewery. If someone is legitimately interested in purchasing something from them, let me know and I will help. I have been talking to a sales rep multiple times a week since the end of December and have a pretty good relationship with him at this point.

Here is the album

I have tentative plans to wire it up to a 30 amp dryer outlet on Sunday for testing, unless someone warns me of certain bodily injury and/or death.

 

[grandequeso]

Id cross my fingers and hook up 240 volts to it, its likely just a typo. Much of the world runs at 200 or 220v. line to neutral.

 

[JoshuaW]

It worked!

 

[srice]

Congrats! Glad that you were able to get the beast fired up (and I couldn't help but notice that you are running 240 volts )

 

[JoshuaW]

Indeed I am I'm stoked to get the electrician out here this week and be brewing again! The PLC is pretty impressive, it has time and temp settings for step mashing, and it can save a handful of recipes!

 

[Knuckles45]

Any updates on how your system worked?

 

[edubba]

The reason for the hot and neutral is it works on a delta power system where you have two 120v taps at the main power center and what is called a wild leg which reads 208v. what you would use is the 208v leg and neutral and a ground for the box. The neutral is bonded at the power center but it good practice to run an extra conductor when working with liquids. Ask the manufacturer if it's for a Delta system first and then check you power supply by removing the power center cover and measure the poles on the breakers. You should have three poles and the center one should read 208v when measured to ground. the outside two should be 120v and when read across any two hot legs you should have 240v and not 208v. it can only be achieved by using the wild leg and neutral. If you're not familiar with a delta system take your time and seek qualified help. Some equipment is specific 240v and some 208v both are 220v applications. 240v is what is typical in single phase power supplies and 208v is typical in three phase. the delta system has both.